kabira Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 and who is drafting the law?? sorry I missed you there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir john Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 people are very sad here in delhi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kabira Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 O bhaisaab' date=' you and me. Why do you want a messiah to do the right thing? There are 300 million middle class people in India who are in a position to follow the rules and say no to graft. Please do so and see the impact. Do you see what I mean?[/quote'] your idea is great, but how you going to do it?? Just because you stop paying the bribe to say local municipality clerk, the corruption wll go away? and Rajas, Pawars will not be there?? Corruption has become compulsory right now if you see how things work. It will take mass movements like Anna did to stop corruption, bring awareness. Change laws, the lokpal bill is just the start. I am sure lot of ppl will come forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gunner Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 You need a spark' date=' a catalyst, an inspirational leader etc for any movement to start. Do you think 300 million middle class people wake up one day and suddenly decide to stop giving bribe?:giggle:[/quote'] So you need a spark to do the right thing? :dontknow: Boss you are asking for a dictator, I am sorry you are circling around the leader concept which worries me a lot. It is essentially people like you who end up destroying the lives of millions by supporting "Brother Leaders" all over the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulbul Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 You are absolutely distorting what I said. I have no objection whatsoever in Anna or anyone else making use of the laws in place to bring accountability in public life. If anything that is absolutely fantastic and I am all for it. However that said I will not allow him to be my official spokesman or to draft laws for which I have elected a government. I don't understand by u r meaning of of " I have elected government " Not all of us elected this government...does that mean people who voted for this govt don't want Anna and his committe to draft bill..while people like me who didn't voted this govt can allow Anna to draft bill.. A elected govt may not be have Devine rights to do whatever it does...people can change their mind after seeing elected govts performance later even if they voted earlier..just because u voted and elected this govt means u have to support them wahetevr happens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gunner Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 your idea is great, but how you going to do it?? Just because you stop paying the bribe to say local municipality clerk, the corruption wll go away? and Rajas, Pawars will not be there?? Corruption has become compulsory right now if you see how things work. It will take mass movements like Anna did to stop corruption, bring awareness. Change laws, the lokpal bill is just the start. I am sure lot of ppl will come forward. Why do you think that 300 million people are not powerful enough to create change? This is the part I am failing to understand. It is a mother****ing huge number of people. Rajas and pawars will not disappear in one night, this is not how evolution takes place. If you believe in evolution then you know that change happens over time. A single event like this can only raise awareness but that doesn't mean that you handover the keys to the tijori to these people and stop thinking for yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kabira Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 ^heck forget 300 million start with 30 million, but how?? thats my question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kabira Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 So you need a spark to do the right thing? :dontknow: Boss you are asking for a dictator, I am sorry you are circling around the leader concept which worries me a lot. It is essentially people like you who end up destroying the lives of millions by supporting "Brother Leaders" all over the world. absolutely you need spark to even do right thing, remember Indian independence movement?? it was always right thing. Remember other such freedom movements in other countries those were right thing...all needed spark, leader. I am sorry if you don't understand concept of leader/ charismatic personality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gunner Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 I don't understand by u r meaning of of " I have elected government " Not all of us elected this government...does that mean people who voted for this govt don't want Anna and his committe to draft bill..while people like me who didn't voted this govt can allow Anna to draft bill.. A elected govt may not be have Devine rights to do whatever it does...people can change their mind after seeing elected govts performance later even if they voted earlier..just because u voted and elected this govt means u have to support them wahetevr happens A) The main opposition is supposed to enforce the views of the people who have not voted for the ruling government, this is the way the parliamentary democracy setup works. B) If you say that I changed my mind after voting so I want a different government then you need to wait out the term of the party elected. What you are saying essentially is that you don't have faith in the constitution or the parliamentary democracy system in India. I respectfully disagree since I don't think India is a banana republic and I have faith in the constitution of India. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gunner Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 absolutely you need spark to even do right thing' date= remember Indian independence movement?? it was always right thing. Remember other such freedom movements in other countries those were right thing...all needed spark, leader. I am sorry if you don't understand concept of leader/ charismatic personality. You have stopped making sense now. You are confusing the uprising of a people against an oppressive foreign power with revolting against your elected government. They are not the same at all. Secondly, by saying you need some outside inspiration you are demeaning the intelligence and thought process of the Indian population. I believe that each one of us knows right and wrong, we are just too lazy to practice it. Chalta hain, haina? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urbestfriend Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 So you need a spark to do the right thing? :dontknow: Boss you are asking for a dictator, I am sorry you are circling around the leader concept which worries me a lot. It is essentially people like you who end up destroying the lives of millions by supporting "Brother Leaders" all over the world. Boss, Majority of middle class Indians do not want to pay bribe, more or less they follow the rules but it is almost impossible to get your work done without paying bribe, thats the reality. For instance, I didn't want to pay bribe to get my DL so I didn't want to go through a tout. After rejected twice in DL test for no apparent reason, I decided to change my mind and approached a broker and got my work done. I understand we, Indians are inherently corrupt, we even bribe our gods to get our work done but we need our Anna's and Kiran Bedi's to bring down the level of corruption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gunner Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 I am sorry if you don't understand concept of leader/ charismatic personality. I wante to answer this seperately, no single leader or "charismatic" personality has ever done any goo for a group of people. There is no such example. Whenever you devlved ultimate power in the hands of one person, it has only led to severe oppression and blood shed. Give me one example of such a glorious leader anywhere. You can't add Gandhi to this because his role was just very very different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gunner Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 Boss' date=' Majority of middle class Indians do not want to pay bribe, more or less they follow the rules but it is almost impossible to get your work done without paying bribe, thats the reality. For instance, I didn't want to pay bribe to get my DL so I didn't want to go through a tout. After rejected twice in DL test for no apparent reason, I decided to change my mind and approached a broker and got my work done. I understand we, Indians are inherently corrupt, [b']we even bribe our gods to get our work done but we need our Anna's and Kiran Bedi's to bring down the level of corruption. That is the part where we have a connundrum, when you and I among the 300 million who are so powerful can't bring change how will these two people bring the change fo you? We basically don't believe in the power of the people ergo we have problems in being a democracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kabira Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 ^JP Movement. > believe that each one of us knows right and wrong, we are just too lazy to practice it. Chalta hain, haina? We do, ok from tomorrow I will not pay bribe and I am sure you will stop two. so we 2 have started this, now what about other 300 millions ?? how you going to make that happen?? How?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urbestfriend Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 A) The main opposition is supposed to enforce the views of the people who have not voted for the ruling government, this is the way the parliamentary democracy setup works. B) If you say that I changed my mind after voting so I want a different government then you need to wait out the term of the party elected. What you are saying essentially is that you don't have faith in the constitution or the parliamentary democracy system in India. I respectfully disagree since I don't think India is a banana republic and I have faith in the constitution of India. Yaar , you're going in circles. Oppositions demands for JPC, govt don't care. Oppositions demands non-corrupt Vigilence commissioner, gov't don't care. Oppositions ask for strong lokpal bill, govt don't move...What do you do? I'll vote opposition party next time, but that is also as corrupt what would you do? They have an easy way to get elected by dividing people on communal lines and bribing poor voters. Middle class suffers. Only alternative people have is to support these a-political leaders who raise their voices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gunner Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 ^JP Movement. Not a single person, is it? No brother leader there. :D We do' date=' ok from tomorrow I will not pay bribe and I am sure you will stop two. so we 2 have started this, now what about other 300 millions ?? how you going to make that happen?? How??[/quote'] You have a family, don't you? Make sure that all of them practice these values, they have friends etc That's how these things spread. It happens over a period of time that people get used to doing the right thing. It is not a change which will happen in one night. I have said that now 50 times on this thread. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulbul Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 A) The main opposition is supposed to enforce the views of the people who have not voted for the ruling government, this is the way the parliamentary democracy setup works. B) If you say that I changed my mind after voting so I want a different government then you need to wait out the term of the party elected. What you are saying essentially is that you don't have faith in the constitution or the parliamentary democracy system in India. I respectfully disagree since I don't think India is a banana republic and I have faith in the constitution of India. Regarding faith,constitution...evrything have a limit...once the situation grown out of control something has to give in.. No need to wait till the next elction...this will be a learning for everyone in next election if such things happens before election ..may be more genuine people will come out of the existing partiesnitself and try to reform others...Waiting is not the solution for evrything. Main opposition parties raised this black money even during last election time..nothing happened because people not gave much importance then..but now people start to realize..that's a welcome change.. Let this continue as long as possible.. But you need some one ore few more people to lead....millions of people won't move themselves they need some one to show the way...that's how very revolution works..no other way.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gunner Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 Yaar , you're going in circles. Oppositions demands for JPC, govt don't care. Oppositions demands non-corrupt Vigilence commissioner, gov't don't care. Oppositions ask for strong lokpal bill, govt don't move...What do you do? I'll vote opposition party next time, but that is also as corrupt what would you do? They have an easy way to get elected by dividing people on communal lines and bribing poor voters. Middle class suffers. Only alternative people have is to support these a-political leaders who raise their voices. Which is why I said earlier that more educated people should start standing for elections. Initially they moight be defeated but over a period of time they will start winning which will change the setup of the parliament. If you keep quiet then the rahul babas and babies of this world will get elected to replace their parents and then their children and so on until it will becomes an elected monarchy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urbestfriend Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 That is the part where we have a connundrum' date=' when you and I among the 300 million who are so powerful can't bring change how will these two people bring the change fo you? We basically don't believe in the power of the people ergo we have problems in being a democracy.[/quote'] These two leaders are immaterial but they are raising the voices of majority of Middle class people like you and me and they are supported by masses which makes duly elected Govt to situp and listen to them, thats what makes the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kabira Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 Not a single person, is it? No brother leader there. :D You have a family, don't you? Make sure that all of them practice these values, they have friends etc That's how these things spread. It happens over a period of time that people get used to doing the right thing. It is not a change which will happen in one night. I have said that now 50 times on this thread. :D and you are saying this is not happening already?? Thats what lot of RTI activists have been doing and who inspired them Anna (so called baburao) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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