Muhammad is the 2nd most popular boy name in the UK !

[Gaurav]

GKD' date=' seems like you arnt very familiar with the concept of Karma.[/quote'] That was a sarcastic dig at Gator's post where he answered Dada about previous life ka action.

[Gaurav]

I am not surprised that you did not get me GKD.

I am not surprised that you did not get my point either. I will leave it at that.

[CC1981]

I am not surprised that you did not get my point either. I will leave it at that.

For some reason GKD, you are avoiding my contention that atheism = just as stupid as religion. I wonder why ( sic). Do you dispute the basic chain of reasoning that if the answer to the question ' Does God exist' is an indeterminate, then assumption of his/her/it/their existance (ie, religion) is just as silly as the assumption of his/her/it/their non-existance (ie, atheism) ??

[varun]

That may be CC, but I somehow don't see atheism causing wars as opposed to religion. So it may be equally stupid (logically), but it surely wouldn't cause as much destruction. Imagine a Group A saying : how dare you believe in the ultimate power X, when we all know it's Y as opposed to : Hey.. how stupid of you to believe in an ultimate power X when there is no X I'd say the first scenario will be a more of a recipe for war than the first. [Edit: Although both are ideologies, and one could try to enforce even atheism as an ideology on others.. but as long as the ideology involves "i don't care what you think", it's enforcement doesn't come into play]

[CC1981]

That may be CC' date=' but I somehow don't see atheism causing wars as opposed to religion.[/quote'] That i think is a different discussion. Lets keep to the crux of the topic which we've been debating over the last few pages: Atheism vs Religion vs Agnosticism. The crux of this debate is centered around existance/non-existance of God or Godly beings. Even if all the religions known to mankind are all false 100%, it still doesnt make atheism right by default ! That is the conclusion gai cannot see. Besides, i can say that certain variations of atheism are extremely warmongering ( Nazi philosophy was atheist to the core) and while many don't know this, our greatest strategic/expansionist mind, Chanakya (who instigated Chandragupta & Bindusara to expand their kingdom of magadh to magadhi empire) was also an atheist. It can also be argued that certain religions - like Jainism or Buddhism has no concept of a 'dharm-yuddh' or warfare of any kind. See, the biggest problem with debating this atheism vs religion vs agnosticism is that owing to its prevalance and dominance of the scene, people often throw in the abrahamic thinking mode to depict religion. I think that is a bit narrow usage of religion. Another argument would be that atheism hasnt enjoyed mass political support in known human history and as such never had the opportunity to go on its own 'whacking spree' - except perhaps in the case of Nazi Germany. Whether you go whack someone else or not is not just a function of your philosophy, it is also a function of your power. Jews havnt whacked anyone in recorded history but anyone who's read their philosophy would know that a Jew believes in the end that every non-Jew who opposes a Jew will get whacked by God and rightly so. But they've never had any real political power to ally military with philosophy. All it takes for people to start killing each other is the extremely arrogant and dangerous line of thought that goes " I am right, you are wrong and you deserve to die due to your error'. Ie, intolerance. I fail to see how Atheism is immune to this.

[Gaurav]

What a load of cr@p! I have answered all your questions previously you just don't want to accept them. In every religious thread all you seem to do is stress directly/indirectly how good Buddhist philosophy is. You also seem to set your own framework and I somehow have to stay within that framework? Huh!

Even if all the religions known to mankind are all false 100%, it still doesnt make atheism right by default ! That is the conclusion gai cannot see.

:hysterical: You are funny! It would make it 99.9% right by default at least :thumbs_up: Good enough mate! Nothing in this world can be 100% to CC's satisfaction apart from Buddha's teachings? :tounge_smile: Btw I never claimed that just because someone is Atheist it make then perfect. They still are human and prone to negative human traits. I thought I said that long time ago. Religion just adds another negative layer and sanctions murder and intolerance.

I am right' date=' you are wrong and you deserve to die due to your error'. Ie, intolerance. I fail to see how Atheism is immune to this.[/quote'] Big jump you are making there. There is a huge difference between "I am right and you are wrong" and "I am right you are wrong because Santa my god says and grants me the power to kill and convert you ". Atheists just reject religion (god head of religion) as there is absolutely no real world evidence to support his existence. Someone made a point and you come out with "not part of the debate" :whatchutalkingabout It's all part of the valid debate. Who is seeing things in black and white now? Regarding Nazis being Atheists! CC should know better! :hysterical: Even Buddhists jumping on the Christian bandwagon of Nazis being atheists? What next? Muslims are atheists? CC I will put you on the same intellectual level as Ann Coulter as that is exactly what she claims. You should exchange notes with her about Nazis being atheists! :hysterical:

Heinrich Himmler: Catholic. Head of the SS. Joseph Goebbels: Catholic. Head of propaganda. Hans Frank: Catholic. Butcher of Poland. Rudolph Hoss: Catholic. Auschwitz concentration camp commandant. Karl Lueger: Catholic. Austrian politician. Anti-Semite, much admired by Adolph. Two-thirds of Germans were Protestant, the rest mainly Catholic, while 1½ percent of Germans were unbelievers in a 1939 census.

(God with us). Hitler got plenty of support form Rome! You can debate Hitler's beliefs if they were more pagan in nature or more catholic etc but to say he was an atheist and worse to say that the Nazis were atheists is silly. Good read- http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/paul_23_4.html Atheists are free thinkers by nature. That means any personality cult...in my eyes is no better than personality cult revolving around god!

[Gaurav]

Whether you go whack someone else or not is not just a function of your philosophy' date=' it is also a function of your power. Jews havnt whacked anyone in recorded history but anyone who's read their philosophy would know that a Jew believes in the end that every non-Jew who opposes a Jew will get whacked by God and rightly so. [b']But they've never had any real political power to ally military with philosophy.

So put them on the same level as the ones who actually have? Oh the love CC has for Jews can only be matched by his love for atheists :hysterical: :devil_smile:

[CC1981]

I have answered all your questions previously you just don't want to accept them.

Can you please point me to a post of yours where you answered the following : ? " Even if all the religions known to mankind are all false 100%, it still doesnt make atheism right by default ! " or that when the answer is indeterminate, it is equally stupid to believe that God doesnt exist as it is to believe that God does. You have so far not answered the following point: 'When all evidence and logic leads to the conclusion that the answer is 'indeterminate' to the question ' Does God exist ?', then beliving in God (religion) is just as stupid as not believing in God ( atheism)'. if you understand mathematics, then the answer to the fundamental question is indeterminate and that makes the atheist answer ( zero) to be equally dumb as the religious answer(one).

It would make it 99.9% right by default at least :thumbs_up: Good enough mate!

Err no. It absolutely doesnt mean so. Just because all religions on earth is false or misguided wouldnt change the fact that God exists if he/she/it/they really do. All it'd mean is we'r wrong about him/her/it/them. Thats a pretty simple logical extrapolation within the realms of an architect i think!

Religion just adds another negative layer

No, it doesnt. Atheism = just as dumb as religion.

Atheists just reject religion (god head of religion) as there is absolutely no real world evidence to support his existence.

Mate, rejecting religion doesnt make you an atheist. I'd expect you to know atleast this much about the thing you profess to be ! Atheist means rejection of God. Not rejection of religion ! They are NOT one and the same ! And i've already proved to you (And the debate in general) that lack of evidence does NOT equate to non-existance. The answer is still a function of empirical fact AND your ability to glean such facts, thus indeterminate as of now! Whoever thinks that lack of proof = God doesnt exist, has zero understanding of science and critical thinking, unfortunately.

It's all part of the valid debate.

It isn't and i've said why so- atheism vs agnosticism vs religion is purely centered around the concept of God, nothing more.

Heinrich Himmler: Catholic. Head of the SS. Joseph Goebbels: Catholic. Head of propaganda. Hans Frank: Catholic. Butcher of Poland. Rudolph Hoss: Catholic. Auschwitz concentration camp commandant. Karl Lueger: Catholic. Austrian politician. Anti-Semite, much admired by Adolph. Two-thirds of Germans were Protestant, the rest mainly Catholic, while 1½ percent of Germans were unbelievers in a 1939 census.

They were born catholics. Nothing more. They were all atheists because Nazi philosophy rejects the concept of God ! That is atheist by definition but considering that you don't even know what atheism is, i am not surprised. You are basically someone with sour grapes against religion and you call yourself atheist, without realizing what makes an atheist. Or atleast, that is what you've presented here with your confused idea of what is/isnt atheism.

Hitler got plenty of support form Rome!

And Rome was Fascist- aka, mini Nazis. The Vatican was a collaborator but what choice did it have exactly ?

You can debate Hitler's beliefs if they were more pagan in nature or more catholic etc but to say he was an atheist and worse to say that the Nazis were atheists is silly.

Look up Nazi doctrine then. Nazi doctrine profess that they do NOT believe in a God. Or atleast, the Nazis of Hitler's Germany ( and not the racist right wing christian nazis of the KKK variety you see in the states) openly declared so. Thus they meet the most fundamental definition of being atheists and there is zero dispute that the Nazis were atheists. I don't care what their war-propaganda machinery produced, bottomline is they all were atheists.

[varun]

I think the thread name should be changed to reflect what it's really about ! "The Religion Thread"

[CC1981]

So put them on the same level as the ones who actually have?

On a philosophical and moral level, yes obviously so ! Morality is not a factor of availability of resources. Just because you are a lil genocidal maniac (for example) sitting in your ma's basement doesnt make you any less guilty on a moral level than Hitler because then the only difference between you and Hitler is that Hitler had the means to bring his plans to fruition while you don't.

Oh the love CC has for Jews can only be matched by his love for atheists

Please do not comment further on your ignorance- what i have said about the Jews is directly from the Jewish Tanakh(Old Testament).

Atheists are free thinkers by nature. That means any personality cult...in my eyes is no better than personality cult revolving around god!

Well as you have demonstrated by your quote : Atheists just reject religion (god head of religion) as there is absolutely no real world evidence to support his existence. :, you don't even understand what atheism means ! Atheism is the theoretical rejection of God. Ie, God doesnt exist. Not whether its the Christian God or Muslim God or Hindu God(s). If you still don't get it, lemme break it down for you : Atheism believes God doesnt exist. They have zero way of determining the existance of God without fully encompassing the material universe in knowledge. Or else, how the fook can you say something (God) doesnt exist when you arnt even aware of all of what exists and doesnt exist ? The only logical answer is agnosticism, where you dont know whether God exists or not. Therefore, Atheism is just as ridiculous as religious thinking based on the existance of God!

[Gaurav]

Jeez CC you that silly? Trying to bend and twist words when you clearly know what I am saying? I know exactly what atheism means. I have clearly said that I reject god...any god including (Greek god, Hindu God(s), Christian, muslim etc) You raised a hypothetical point and I was answering that! What is god? My point was that religion is the main source of God as is currently practised on this planet. So if all religions of the world are 100% wrong then I said that it makes atheist position 99.9% right by default. The .1% I left out for the exact reasons you pointed out. Is that so difficult to understand?

Please do not comment further on your ignorance- what i have said about the Jews is directly from the Jewish Tanakh(Old Testament).

Classic! You create you own assumptions about what I said :hysterical: Did I say anything about Jewish text not being filled with hate? Did you watch any of the videos I posted that clearly say that Jewish religious texts is f@kd up? My point was- Say there is religion X that calls for destruction of all non-believers Religion Y also calls for destruction of all non-believers Both are disgusting correct? I think so anyway. Now religion X has regularly committed mass slaughter religion Y has never committed any mass slaughter. Surely even though their religious texts are disgusting you are not going to place burden of mass slaughter already on religion Y even though they have never actually carried it out? Then there is the additional question of how many of religion X and Ys followers are willing to literally follow their religious text. Even as an atheist I can see the difference between the various shades of religions/religious people.

Just because you are a lil genocidal maniac (for example) sitting in your ma's basement doesnt make you any less guilty on a moral level than Hitler because then the only difference between you and Hitler is that Hitler had the means to bring his plans to fruition while you don't.

We are talking about ground reality and not what I think in my ma's basement :hysterical: There is little bit of difference between actually carrying out something and thinking about it. Guilty by thought?

[Gaurav]

They were all atheists because Nazi philosophy rejects the concept of God !

Jeez CC! Hitler had a moustache so all people with moustache are Nazis? :hysterical: If Nazis fought and killed in the name of atheism then I would understand your huffing and puffing! _ Good article to read- http://www.atheistresource.co.uk/christmasunderfire.html Some Hitler quotes- "My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people." –Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942) "…the fall of man in paradise has always been followed by his expulsion." -Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf (See Genesis Chapter 3 where humankind is cast from Eden for their sins. Hitler compares this to the need to exterminate the Jews for their sin against Christ.) “Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.” –Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf) “The anti-Semitism of the new movement [Christian Social movement] was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge.” –Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (This quote is very interesting for it disperses the idea that Hitler raged war due to being an Aryan supremacist. He states quite clearly that he has a problem with Jews for their belief not race. That is why many German Jews died in WW2 regardless of their Aryan nationality.) “Only in the steady and constant application of force lies the very first prerequisite for success. This persistence, however, can always and only arise from a definite spiritual conviction. Any violence which does not spring from a firm, spiritual base, will be wavering and uncertain.” –Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (Here Hitler is admitting that his war against the Jews were so successful because of his strong Christian Spirituality.) “We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.” -Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933 [This statement clearly refutes modern Christians who claim Hitler as favoring atheism. Hitler wanted to form a society in which ALL people worshipped Jesus and considered any questioning of such to be heresy. The Holocaust was like a modern inquisition, killing all who did not accept Jesus. Though more Jews were killed then any other it should be noted that MANY ARYAN pagans and atheists were murdered for their non-belief in Christ.]

[Gaurav]

CC I want a refund for the valuable time I wasted arguing with you. I am not going to waste any more time. You know I need to put bread on the table and stuff :hysterical: We have both made our points and let's leave it at that. OR you can continue arguing and playing verbal taekwondo with yourself :giggle: I hope "LORD" gives me the strength to not jump back in :hysterical:

[kumble_rocks]

Looks like CC is unbeatable in debates.:regular_smile: He can go on and on.

[CC1981]

What is god? My point was that religion is the main source of God as is currently practised on this planet. So if all religions of the world are 100% wrong then I said that it makes atheist position 99.9% right by default. The .1% I left out for the exact reasons you pointed out. Is that so difficult to understand?

And this is where you are wrong. The main source of our beleif in God is NOT from religion- religion only puts a certain 'picture and attributes' of God based on which religion it is. Even if their(religion's) position is completely wrong, it merely means that humanity's idea about God is wrong. It does NOT by any means, imply that if religion is wrong then there is no God- as i said, whether there is God or not is beyond our scope of knowledge as of now. So atheism being wrong doesnt make religion right by default and vice versa ! Ab samjhe ? Oh and your statement about Hitler means squat - note that it was said in 1933. Hitler in the middle of WWII broadcast numerous times propagating atheism and anti-religion. Nazi philosophy too, developed as it went along.

[The Outsider]

It has not been proven that God exists, hence people who believe he does do so without any substance. It has also not been proven that God does not exist, hence people who believe he does not, do so without any substance. Atheists have more leg to stand on than theists because one has to prove the existence of something rather than prove the non existence of it by all scientific conventions. As for me I don't give a fack either way.

[CC1981]

Atheists have more leg to stand on than theists because one has to prove the existence of something rather than prove the non existence of it by all scientific conventions.

This is where i think scientists too are facked up. If one claims anything, it requires proof- be it a claim of existance or a claim of non-existance. Neither position can be arrived at by default due to the opposite. Until we know all that is the material universe, we can make no claims whatsoever definitively about what doesnt exist and what does.

As for me I don't give a fack either way.

Yep same here.

[The Outsider]

If one claims anything, it requires proof

What's wrong with that?

Until we know all that is the material universe, we can make no claims whatsoever definitively about what doesnt exist and what does.

You, I, and this computer exist. I don't think there is any ambiguity in that.

[CC1981]

You, I, and this computer exist. I don't think there is any ambiguity in that.

LOL..by 'what exists and what doesnt', i am talking about the scope of material existance, whether God exists or not.

What's wrong with that?

?? Nothing wrong with that- thats the position i am holding. The logical extrapolation of my position is that whether one claims God exists or whether one claims God doesnt exist, both need to produce evidence to back up their claim rather than look at each other and point fingers going 'if he is wrong them i am right, if he has no proof, then that is my proof hahaha!'.

[Guest dada_rocks]

So you think God exclusively caters to humans ? What about the millions of chickens and beef that people consume every day. The thousands of germs that you kill every time you brush ? The loads of potatoes and onions that "die" after being uprooted for our benefit. What I'm trying to get at is.. This chakkar of life and death is never-ending, and if there is a "God", to assume that it caters to only living things, and that too us humans is presumptuous arrogant and delusional.

In fact religious ones are more inclined to believe that God caters to humans only. I don't know who he caters to and why but people here attempted to equate god with parents. God has miles to go before he/she/it can come anywhere close to parental love. I am not ready to believe any crime deserves kind of punishement that socalled most-merciful has been doling out. I say why this drama of creating life and forcing it through all the utterly painful trials and tribulations..