Muhammad is the 2nd most popular boy name in the UK !

[varun]

Hmm i choose to believe or not when it's convenient. When i'm comfortable and free from worries, I tend to become an atheist, and when i'm in trouble and helpless I look for divine intervention :haha:

[Lurker]

To be honest, I am not sure what scientific/mathematical contributions the Arabs/muslim world has made. This is not intended to bash muslims- this is how i understand history. Mostly they've acted as a conduit of knowledge from east to west. Al-Jabr learnt Algebra from India, wrote a book after going back to Baghdad and this revolutionary math was promptly named after him as Aljabra. Europe translated Turkish texts and called it Algebra. Ibn-Sina mostly documented Ayurvedic and Chinese medical tradition in his Qanoon/Cannon of medicine.

Specifically speaking about Maths and Islamic connection CC you have a point about Arabic peninsula being the conduit but where I would disagree with is that Arabic mathematicians added a whole lot on top of what they already had. It is fascinating to even think that I do not have to make any extra effort to help anyone understand the Islamic algebra of say 700 AD. The algebra as we read in school(largely Western education) is exactly what it was back then. And of course the modern numerals are called Arabic numerals as well. Yes we can argue they originated in India(purists call them Arabic numerals). We are argue and debate about the origin and importance of Mathematics here but what we can not possibly argue about is the role religion played in the development of modern sciences. xxxx

[Rajiv]

Hmm i choose to believe or not when it's convenient. When i'm comfortable and free from worries, I tend to become an atheist, and when i'm in trouble and helpless I look for divine intervention :haha:

Ditto :cantstop: The existence of this universe suggest that something musty have been there, unless science shows us how an empty space ( if there was one ) could create something Now, the question arises - so GOD created this universe, OK..but can we find out, who made GOD? I mean it must have started somewhere right So why only GOD, why not a group of people with exceptional power or some other entity

[Gaurav]

Varun I started off like that actually. My mind was telling me that religion was bull but whenever I had problems I would still ask god for help. Slowly I realized that praying did not really do anything. So 6-7 years ago I formally rejected god and I have been the happiest ever in my life :giggle: Before I used to get scared in the dark about bhoot pret but since I unshackled my brain I can go anywhere in the dark and not give a f@k ( used f@k for Lurker). I have challenged all the female spirits/ghosts of the world to come and give me a BJ but they just won't :hysterical: They won't even come and move the watch on my table. The only thing that scares me now is crazy humans:hysterical: Rejecting some divine entity has had zero negative effect on my life. Edit- Would getting a BJ from a sexy bhootni be classed as cheating? :hysterical:

[CC1981]

.

[varun]

I get what you're saying gai. It's not that I'm scared of the bhoot-pret and all. But it's just the upbringing. Like our family used to get together and read the Hanuman-Chalisa, gayatri mantra and all every Tuesday in front of the little mandir in the closet lol. So there are some happy memories, and a feeling of general "good-ness" and happiness associated with it. When I pray i believe it's to seek that comfort and solace of being secure with my mum'n dad as a kid rather than actually expect god to come and help me out.

[Lurker]

Lurker you making silly arguments now. Just because something is created by Hindu or Buddhist civilization does not mean it has god/supernatural connection. That still does not make ZERO a gift from god! It's normal to build on past civilizations religious or non-religious.

Yaar kabhi kabhi you act not as Gai but bilkool as a bail(bull) in brain department :cantstop::cantstop: Bhai mere I am pointing you out that a lot of science, if not most, can be traced to Religion. If you can agree to that help me understand how can Religion let Science exist side by side when obviously Religion was the thing? So all these jacka$$es who shout about Science Science should learn their history and know their roots. Quite possible the field of science they study today was developed by a sadhu maharaj :tounge_smile::tounge_smile: Science and faith can not co-exist my :bootyshake::bootyshake:

[gator]

I have been part of the furniture at temples and even briefly at a madrassa. It took me a while but I saw in the end that they it was all sense less

i see, u had physical relationship with these religions and their places of worship... but u r so lazy to jus explore ur own mind....

I used to get scared in the dark about bhoot pret but since I unshackled my brain I can go anywhere in the dark and not give a f@k ( used f@k for Lurker). I have challenged all the female spirits/ghosts of the world to come and give me a BJ but they just won't :hysterical: They won't even come and move the watch on my table.

wow... u r equating belief in the almightly to believing in Ghosts... so u shunned God and now u aint scared of Ghost.... i have seen it all now....

Rejecting some divine entity has had zero negative effect on my life.

wat u thot, u would be punished for rejecting God... u havent even moved past the kindergarten of exploring ur mind.... let me make it easier for u.. i had asked u a question in my earlier post....i asked u, wat happens wen u desert ur parents wen they r old and sick.... will u be punished?? if so, by whom??? let me see, if u can answer this....

[Gaurav]

CC are you mixing your phone connection? First you asked Gator to respond now me? Kis ko bol raha hai re? Quote: Originally Posted by CC1981 Gator, i am still waiting for your rebuttal to my post where i show atheism = religion. point me to ur post... Quote: Originally Posted by gator point me to ur post... Post #45.

[varun]

.. a lot of science' date=' if not most, can be traced to Religion. [/quote'] Noo... almost all of our modern science can be traced back to philosophy (and a general sense of inquisitiveness) rather than religion. Religion = accepting things blindly [Edit: Also earlier pagan Religions = myths = imagining stories to explain why things are a certain way] Philosophy = questioning why things are Natural philosophers were the precursors to all scientists.

[CC1981]

Specifically speaking about Maths and Islamic connection CC you have a point about Arabic peninsula being the conduit but where I would disagree with is that Arabic mathematicians added a whole lot on top of what they already had. It is fascinating to even think that I do not have to make any extra effort to help anyone understand the Islamic algebra of say 700 AD. The algebra as we read in school(largely Western education) is exactly what it was back then. And of course the modern numerals are called Arabic numerals as well. Yes we can argue they originated in India(purists call them Arabic numerals). We are argue and debate about the origin and importance of Mathematics here but what we can not possibly argue about is the role religion played in the development of modern sciences. xxxx

The role some religions played is pretty amazing. But Christianity and Islam most definitely didnt play any role in development of sciences. European sciences only took off after they stopped killing scientists or making them discredit themselves for discovering data that upset their dumb ideas of universe (flat earth, earth = center of unvierse etc etc) even at the slightest. This is fundamentally so too in Islam - where the Islamic works on algebra throughout the 700CE- 1500 CE period is distinctly inferior to Indian algebraic works by 500 CE. Where Christianity & Islam have made immense contributions is in the field of banking, property laws, defining property etc etc. Since their society was un-friendly towards science, their only avenue of increasing quality of life was through economic means than scientific- hence their banking (thanks to knight templars) and property laws (islam) is pretty big improvement on any other model. Christianity & Islam have predominantly been anti-science for these reasons.

[CC1981]

CC are you mixing your phone connection? First you asked Gator to respond now me? Kis ko bol raha hai re? Quote: Originally Posted by CC1981 Gator, i am still waiting for your rebuttal to my post where i show atheism = religion. point me to ur post... Quote: Originally Posted by gator point me to ur post... Post #45.

Bah. You are quite right. I am losing my marbles. I orignally meant you, Gai. I dunno why i accidentally typed Gator earlier... Sorry for the confusion- especially towards Gator, since he must be scratching his head how he got involved.

[gator]

thts alright.... Gai is jus a lil stubborn, he will come around eventually....

[Gaurav]

Found this funny image :hysterical: Lurker sand ki punch mat khich! Dawkin was making a point and tu bal ki khal utar raha hai!

wow... u r equating belief in the almightly to believing in Ghosts... so u shunned God and now u aint scared of Ghost.... i have seen it all now....

Abhe I am comparing supernatural stuff and for me there is no difference between the two (god and ghost) as both are mumbo jumbo. When I rejected mumbo jumbo all my childish bhoot pret walle fear went away as well. Samja point?

i see, u had physical relationship with these religions and their places of worship... but u r so lazy to jus explore ur own mind....

What has god got to do with me exploring my mind? I don't need to believe in god to explore my mind! A nice bike ride in the forest/next to river/in the fields does wonders for my mind exploration :giggle:

wat u thot, u would be punished for rejecting God... u havent even moved past the kindergarten of exploring ur mind.... let me make it easier for u.. i had asked u a question in my earlier post....i asked u, wat happens wen u desert ur parents wen they r old and sick.... will u be punished?? if so, by whom??? let me see, if u can answer this....

Again the same crap about exploring the mind. I explore my mind but it has nothing to do with god! Stop saying exploring the mind as if that is some kind of killer argument you are making in support of god :wink_smile: Exploration of mind is not exclusive territory of religion! Regarding your other question. If I desert my parents when they are old and sick then nothing will happen to me. I won't do that though because I love them and they sacrificed lot for me. Their sacrifice was real and I witnessed it. On a purely technical level though nothing will happen to me if I did not take care of them. They will end up in old peoples home. :cry_smile:

[CC1981]

Gai, your map of sciences is completely wrong and totally Euro-centric. At no point in human history before 1700 CE did Europe surpass India or China in scientific accomplishment. Europe might've passed India sometime around 1500 CE, especially with the fall of Vijayanagara...but China was far far ahead till Europe surpassed them in 1700s. And Gai, now that i've cleared it up, please answer my post # 45. :teeth_smile:

[Gaurav]

Tera bakwas walla post No.45. :teeth_smile:

True. But so what ? Your idea that God doesnt exist is just as wishful thinking !

Abhe simple logic hai! Religious people claimed something and I am disclaiming it! Don't you understand the difference?

One can easily say that this 'God' could have far far heavier issues to worry about than us and we are bout as significant to this God as one hair follicle in a a$$ hair we have. Hence he can't be 'arsed' to bother with us.

In that case I can easily ask why are religious people praying and worrying about what god thinks then? :hysterical: Checkmate there for you!

Umm..who is saying to follow religion ? Can your mind think in anything but 'on-off/us vs them/ if not true, then opposite must be true' kind of thinking mode ? What i am saying is that atheism and religion are EQUALLY UNJUSTIFIED. Hence my position is agnosticism. If the answer is 'maybe', then it makes just about as much sense to say 'the answer is Yes God exists' and run with it like a religious git as saying 'the answer is No, God doesn't exist' and running with it like an atheist git.

I answered this previously with the 99.9% probability thing and my invisible dildo orbiting around your head example :cantstop:

This has nothing to do with buddhism or religion. This question of agnosticism was raised by some very prominent thinkers- including Neitzche, Descartes, Pascal, etc. and no amount of counter-argument from the atheist club can nullify the PERFECTLY LOGICAL possibility of God existing but we having no means (yet) to detect him/her/it/them.

Agreed just like no amount of counter-argument from you can nullify the PERFECTLY LOGICAL argument about the invisible dildo orbiting your head (specially when I know I set it in motion) :hysterical:

Your argument of 'if no evidence present, then God must not exist' is just as stupid as saying 'if no evidence present, murder did not happen'. We clearly know that not all murderers leave evidence worthy of trial, but yet that happens too. While presence of evidence can establish, without a shadow of doubt, that the said phenomenon corresponding to it exists, the lack of evidence cannot lead to the conclusion, without a shadow of doubt, that the said phenomenon doesnt exist.

I answered this point before! Did you not read it? Let me see if can find my post! Here- Not all murderers leave evidence but the phenomenon of murder is a fact and well known! We know that there is such a thing as murder because it happens all the time. We have seen it, we find dead bodies, murdered people are missed etc etc. You are comparing that with something that has never been seen by sane people? A god that has never revealed himself? Jeez CC comparing apples with oranges aren't we?

[Gaurav]

Gai, your map of sciences is completely wrong and totally Euro-centric. At no point in human history before 1700 CE did Europe surpass India or China in scientific accomplishment. Europe might've passed India sometime around 1500 CE, especially with the fall of Vijayanagara...but China was far far ahead till Europe surpassed them in 1700s. And Gai, now that i've cleared it up, please answer my post # 45. :teeth_smile:

It's a funny chart with regards to the black dark ages hole! I clearly said that it's a funny map! Tu to kisi cheez ki bhi g@nd pakad leta hai re :tounge_smile:

[Gaurav]

Ok there are two many of you and it's becoming a full time job answering all your posts! Can I be put on ICF's pay roll? :hysterical:

[CC1981]

Religious people claimed something and I am disclaiming it! Don't you understand the difference?

Yes, i understand the difference. However, what you don't understand is this : When the answer is an indefinite, claiming it is just as stupid as disclaiming it ! Do you get this simple logic ?

The same basis as to which atheists think there is no God - atheists don't need proof of God's non-existance either to believe.

Okay then, case closed. Thanks for agreeing with me then that Atheists are no different than religious folks.

In that case I can easily ask why are religious people praying and worrying about what god thinks then?

Because that could be true too ! There could just be an evil God keeping track of all our fackups and then waiting to whack us with his dandaa. My point in providing these answers is to demonstrate that there is a wide range of beliefs and justifications possible since the answer to the question whether God is or isnt, is an indeterminate question!

I answered this previously with the 99.9% probability thing and my invisible dildo orbiting around your head example

You didnt answer it - you just engaged in a piss-take. My point is not in telling you what to believe but telling you that active disbeleif also requires equal levels of proving their faith. The atheists can't just pass the buck saying ' let them prove God then we'll believe, else no God' because it STILL does not satisfy the clause that God may exist anyways but we dont know it or cant explain it by anything on earth. You are talking about existance and non-existance. Both requires equal amount of beleif if the answer is indeterminate.

Agreed just like no amount of counter-argument from you can nullify the PERFECTLY LOGICAL argument about the invisible dildo orbiting your head

There is no logic to that because orbiting invisible dildo does not meet the first requirement of supernaturality. The whole argument of supernaturality hinges on the limitations of our understanding or reality and trying to understand that which is beyond us...an innaimate object like a dildo doesnt fit the bill in the first place ! Ie, it isnt a God, isnt set in motion by a higher being outside our scope of understanding...what you are doing is pucca typical atheistic smokescreen to the simple answer that you guys are just as clueless as religious nutters are.

We have seen it, we find dead bodies, murdered people are missed etc etc. You are comparing that with something that has never been seen by sane people? A god that has never revealed himself? Jeez CC comparing apples with oranges aren't we?

My point is, just like you not being able to prove that murder was committed doesnt mean that murder didnt happen, you unable to prove that god exists doesnt mean God doesnt exist. That is a very simple line of thought and i can garantee you - scientifically speaking, there is no other credible standpoint except agnosticism. Which means religious folks are equally unscientific as atheist folks.

[Gaurav]

Bah. You are quite right. I am losing my marbles. . I dunno why i accidentally typed Gator earlier... Sorry for the confusion-

Tell me something new about the marbles :tounge_smile: Chai enjoy bhoot kar raha hoga tu yoda ke sath...I mean Buddhaji ke sath :hysterical: Just kidding matey!