Nehru taken for ride by Chinese

[Guest dada_rocks]

What constitutes proof other than the obviois communist leaning in Indian policies garbed as socialism, please let me know I will procure that. Obviously Nehru won't go public claiming the same if u are looking for that as evidence then I am sorry. For starter russian imprint in army has been there from day one and u don't get those military hardware without being in their camp.

And what did Nehru not achieve? He was the PM till early 60's. The most important 15 years of India. This was the first time there was India, and if today India remains it is because Nehru engrained Democracy in Indians. He could have been Dictator, right at our borders Pakistan and China, we had leaders like them but one thing he never did was exactly that.

Nehru ingrained democratic tradition is stretching it too far. I am not buying this baseless claim. We have had tradition of election even before India got independence and it's the basic trait of our people Nehru doesn't get any brownie points for that if any Britishers get that for reinitiating that process. I would be reluctant to give even them the credit it has to be our basic trait. Yes he could have been worse but that doesn't tell much does it. For that matter other than Indira gandhi every leader deserves a pat for not taking dictatorship rout.

One rules interrupted for 15 years or so means he will change something? Okay show me any other leader(Indira Gandhi included) who has done half of what Nehru did to Indian education. You are free to take example of Jyoti Basu, Laloo Yadav etc etc. Go ahead prove me wrong. By the way the IITs you talked about are still Nehru's vision. How many have we opened since Nehru passed away? Like 2-3 more? xxxx

See India needed some indigenous engineering schools and there were none to right home about hence it was imperative to open few and anyone with bare minimum vision wud have done exactly that. Now why not many came up afterwards well numerous state and regional engineering colleges have come afterwards. Now u are not giving the credit of IIT's success in comparison to others to nehru are you. An untappend human capital gets a medium to express itself and does a great job and that's what is at the forfront of IIT success. Now why more were not opened by later year leaders reason is the existing institutie were more than enough to fulfill the demands of an economy strangled by nehruvian socialism. Now it has opened up with that has mandated more engg grads hence we are seeing new insitiutes coming up. Just check how many engg colleges have come up yeah they are not called iit so what. IIT gets credit beyond its contribution me thinks. Recently saw an article will post it sometimes that majority of PSUs are exhaustively manned by non-IIT grads and it has been like that since ages. Fact is he was the first PM and everything was in infancy and any economist will tell you policy of diminishing returns sets in the later stage of implementation. So the proof of pudding is where that policy of nehruvian socialsm took India eventually as opposed to how it fared in initial years and am sorry to say it ended up in bankrupcy. Every leader has different brief vision: Jyoti basu: land reforms Laloo Yadav: Awakening of socially deprived class [40 years of sosialism could not do that] Indira gandhi: nationalization of bank , abolition of pirvy purse, for a change winning a war unlike her father. Anyway here people are decrying his more than pathetic record on foreign affairs front, so talk of education to me at best seems like red herring.

[Guest dada_rocks]

As i said- my example was in context- your's isnt. My example dealt with the ideology that if a group of people want autonomy/independence, it should be put on vote (referrendum) in true democratic fashion. This has NOTHING whatsoever to do with scale- this is valid for a country of 1 billion to 1000. Your example of progress of countries IS very much a function of scale. So nice try, chump. But as usual, your effort to obfuscate the issue has been outed by me.

Any democratic demand has to be function of scale may be not in ur lala land . South Korea is not some switzerland or finland ( village-nation) it has enough population to warrant comparison to any other big nation state. Try some other alibi this one is not working.. Not only South korea there is singapore heck even China is miles ahead of us on ecnoomy front. Japan got fully destroyed and restarted, then there is malaysia.. list is endless.

[CC1981]

For starter russian imprint in army has been there from day one and u don't get those military hardware without being in their camp.

And WTF is wrong with that ? Why should India do America's chamchaagiri like you do, especially when Trueman was the ONLY neutral (ie, non-British) person in the Tehran summit who was AGAINST independence of India ? Socialism is a very good goal to have- as scandinavian countries prove, socialism is what makes a top-class society when moderated with capitalism. India had similar goals in mind before.

See India needed some indigenous engineering schools and there were none to right home about hence it was imperative to open few and anyone with bare minimum vision wud have done exactly that.

Nothing more than disparaging remarks towards Nehru's accomplishments. If anybody with bare minimum vision would've done that, it means that nehru still had more vision than any other PM after him - they opened two more IITs post Nehru !

Anyway here people are decrying his more than pathetic record on foreign affairs front,

His foreign affairs record is far more valued than any other Indian Prime Minsters, even in the west. Nehru is the fundamental reason why the world didnt totally break apart in a 'red vs greenback' cold war front and even Gorbachev gave credit to Nehru for conceptualising the non-aligned movement that ultimately played a critical demise in cold-war tensions. He wasnt perfect but his FA record is better than any other Indian PM till Vajpayee came along- who still doesnt match nehru in vision, oratory or statesmanship IMO.

[CC1981]

Any democratic demand has to be function of scale may be not in ur lala land .

Err no.A democratic demand is based on populist majority- not what the scale of the total population base is. Democracy functions in socities with few million people as well as societies with over a billion. Categoric proof that democratic demand is NOT tied to scale. Good try, chump. But no cigar!

South Korea is not some switzerland or finland ( village-nation) it has enough population to warrant comparison to any other big nation state.

South Korea's population at time of post Korean war(when SK started to develop) was smaller than West Bengal's population in the same period. Fact. Your comparison is moronic and even Amartya Sen- who happens to know far more economics than you ever will- categorically underlines the flaw in comparing South Korean economy with India's or China's.

Japan got fully destroyed and restarted, then there is malaysia.. list is endless.

Japan had Trueman doctrine to help her out- like much of Europe. Billions of dollars of investment flowed into Japan in the 50s & 60s - nothing even REMOTELY to scale in India. Hence your comparison again, is without merit or any basis in facts. Chinese economy is far less sound and on far more dodgy grounds- this has been proven in another thread. So yet another 'D_R speak' bereft of fact, analysis or comprehension in the typical fundie fashion.

[Guest dada_rocks]

Aise to u will keep harpng this has that that has that point is they eventually fared way way better..... And yes moblilizing 100 people and 100 crore people is not the same thing. it has to be fucntion of scale I am not wating any more space arguing thsi obvious point.. Nunawat must be in several lakhs at best and India is in 100 crores go figure. South korea is 5 crore India is 100 crore ( quite comparable certainly more comparable than other example ) . Five cire population comes with all the bells and whistles of a nation just llike 100 crore.. Case closed u can continue filling up space denying this .. Bereft of fact.. dude u jump with SK Bose in discussion of PM election of independent India and u call others bereft of fact..

[CC1981]

Aise to u will keep harpng this has that that has that point is they eventually fared way way better.....

That makes ZERO sense. Ofcourse, competence in English has never been your strong suite.

And yes moblilizing 100 people and 100 crore people is not the same thing. it has to be fucntion of scale I am not wating any more space arguing thsi obvious point..

An election is not an exercise in mobilization. It is an exercise in the voting base exercising its rights IRRESPECTIVE of the scale of the voting base.

South korea is 5 crore India is 100 crore ( quite comparable certainly more comparable than other example ) .

No it isnt. You going ad-hominem wont make it so. Economic development on a national level is TOTALLY a function of scale of population. Democracy is NOT a function of scale of population where the size of the population directly impacts the level or progression of democratic thought. Economic development is measured in GDP and GDP per capita- BOTH are functions of scale directly. A democracy is based on percentages, not on the overall scale. How developed a nation gets is a function of its population size. Whether autonomy is granted or not is NOT an issue of population-size as autonomy for Nunavut proves categorically. Get that through your head coz you are deliberately arguing with a false premise simply because you cannot accept that your example is totally out of context and thus useless. Ofcourse, i do not expect you to get this- you do not understand the basics of democracy as you have proven before. First you assume 85% votes = 85% of the population supported the bill, without even knowing what % of eligible population voted. Second, you are the retard who votes in multiple categories in one simple multiple-choice poll. Ie, a typical retard = you.

[Lurker]

DR, Your response about Nehru is twisted in its own arse sorry to say. Lets start with your assertion about Nehru being in Russian camp. Since you raised issue about Nehru "non-alignment" the onus rests on you to prove it. I mentioned very clearly that do not give me an Indira Gandhi phase of Indian diplomacy but show me Nehru's diplomacy and prove it that he was impressed by Russian. My question is still open. The only suggestion you could bring forth was that Indian Defence borrowed heavily from Russian forces. I would say even this does not sound much ground at all. As far as my memory goes the first celebrated Indian military equipment is Hawker Hunters. These were supposedly "old" fighter planes that beat the living daylights of Pakistan. I am sure you have heard their stories. And they were British build. Then you suggest Nehru put forth his stress on education cos any leader would do that if he had 15 years time. Then when I ask you to put forth a name you fold up with every leader has different vision! Easy answer could have been that no Indian politician has done to Indian Education as Nehru has period! Like I mentioned before Nehru had its drawback and Sino-Indian war was certainly one but to beat Nehru at the drop of hat is not on. As is the fact that our generation refuses to give respect to a man who is largely responsible for where we are. xxx

[Lurker]

Iam not talking physical losses .... Iam talking Foreign Policy .... developing N technology and taking on the Japanese and Hiroshima and getting into the European theatre of WWII when it was none of their Business ... They copped a lot of flak for all those activities and came out with no major bruises .... and then took on the commies after WWII and it took a good 40 yrs of consistent foreign policy with a singleminded vision to beat the commies .... Such things are not undertaken by our Polictcos .. .not that we are incapable of such thinking and planning but its just not in our Psyche .... we tend to mind our business (literally) and we are under this illusion that everybody else will mind their's and that we will all live happily ever after .... Hindi-Chini bhai-bhai being the classic example.

Your response is wrong on the fact that your earlier post was about Communist Russia was out to get USA and USA finding itself in a corner made its policy. Coming to WWII now. I stand by my statement that USA did not lose much and USSR lost everything. Physical losses, human losses, economic losses were lot more on Russia than it would ever be on United States. If you disagree with it do show me how USA lost more people, money, cities etc etc in WW II. Lastly the thing about Capitalism vs Communism. I am not sure of the reason for this argument. If you are willing to give credit to US for single minded effort towards Capitalism(and ensuring the downfall of Communism) are you, in the same vein, willing to give the same credit to Communist Russia who did exactly the same for 40 years? Sure the result was different but since you suggested singleminded thinking/planning and vision, how does Communist Russia differ from Capitalist USA?

Me being an Indian first and foremost I would obviously not like that (as it hurts my interests)... but you will find hardly any american that would give a flying fack be it a Indian leader or Castro .... You do what you gotta do to keep your boat floating .... thats how this country works.

And that is what is eternally wrong with USA. Surely you do realize that such gesture - of giving flying fack about Indian leader - is the reason why USA is despised not only my Muslim countries but also by its European counterparts. All this doing anything to get your boat afloat is nothing but a smokescreen and you are smart enough to understand that BB. The biggest CIA success in its history - Afganistan, Pakistan & Middle East have all come back to haunt American people today. If by keeping your ship afloat you mean American body bags everywhere then yes American ship is certainly floating. xxx

[CC1981]

Can someone explain to me in American historical context, how American 'people loving free society' is any LESS aggressive mercantile expansionist state than ancient Rome or Communist Russia ? Anyone who thinks that US foreign policy is the benchmark of astute foreign policy knows very little of foreign policies. The US is the biggest example of 'poking your nose into everything without doing your homework and facting it all up'. Biggest problem with american ignorance is the failure to differentiate between communism & socialism- where they diss socialism by ignorantly lumping it together with communism. And YES, communism does deserve some credit. Communism came up with minimum wage & maximum hours of 'obligatory' work. Before communism came up with that, the capitalists were literally slaving the population for 12 hrs/day six days a week in lil gungy factories paying them chump-change and firing them if they refused to work that slaving routine. Slavery is a fundamentally capitalist construct- not a communist one.