Terror attacks (UK)

[Lurker]

Only thing I know is another idiot called rajeev gandhi sent his soldiers there .. If I start approriating guilt based on where from the arms came I would be crapping on USSr the biggest military hardware supplier of India too for arming taliban.. Arm's market people sell arms they don;t give it with advice to kill this or that person......

So again you are willing to point fingers at India and Indian leaders. Whats new. But do not move the goalpost here. I asked you two specific questions: 1) Pray do tell which International leader had intimated Indira Gandhi that her life was in danger in less than a week from her assassination? 2) Also do you deny Israel's role in Indian soldiers being killed in Sri Lanka?

If israel had ill-will it won;t have pitched in with military hardware support in kargil war.. You may not like to hear but israel has been one of the supplier of millitary hardware since the time of indira gandhi yes it was kept lpw profile that's another matter.

Nothing new. Israel had armed/trained many Muslim countries as well. They looked after their interest, we paid money they gave us weapons. End of story.

Again I will keep asking what's the relevance of all these red herrings in this debate

Huh I already replied. Here's again... A man should learn from his history. India's history of its 60 odd years tells me that atleast for first 40 years USA did everything against India's interest, including assissting Indian enemies and arm twisting to the extent where they sent their battleships to India. This was true as late as early 80's(definitely till Indira Gandhi was the PM). During late 80's and mid 90's when Kashmir blew up USA did nothing for India knowing fully well Pakistan had a key hand in it. Bombay blast happened, perpetrators ran to Pakistan. For a country that rules Pakistan behind the scenes I find it hard to beleive it did not know about blast or about the perpetrators. Pakistan jehadists poured into India, Indian diplomats kept shouting but USA turned deaf ears. Situations changed circa 911. Why? Because suddenly their arse is on the line. And what do they expect? "You are either with us or against us". Why should I give them support knowing they never were there to help us? And that they created the monsters we battled anyways - from Pakistan to Al-Qaeda xxx

[Lurker]

Nothing u are going to say is ging to convince me that moos like aurnagjeb and tiopu sultan's hindu killing had some larger national interest behind it.. u can get it carved is stone but this BS in name of history will remain BS..

So the man who doesnt know much about India's 60 year history and is more than willing to forget USA'a action vis a vis India is now gonna talk about 300-400 year old history. Excuse me if I find it lacking credibility. :wink_smile:

[kumble_rocks]

yes a zionist conspiracy...... mofos have wiped out whole arbais but that's not enough they want little piece of land size of stamp paper in comparison too..

Jesus, Why the hell are you so upset about Israel. I support Palestine on that issue. You know that.

[Guest dada_rocks]

So again you are willing to point fingers at India and Indian leaders. Whats new. But do not move the goalpost here. I asked you two specific questions: 1) Pray do tell which International leader had intimated Indira Gandhi that her life was in danger in less than a week from her assassination? 2) Also do you deny Israel's role in Indian soldiers being killed in Sri Lanka? Nothing new. Israel had armed/trained many Muslim countries as well. They looked after their interest, we paid money they gave us weapons. End of story. Huh I already replied. Here's again... A man should learn from his history. India's history of its 60 odd years tells me that atleast for first 40 years USA did everything against India's interest, including assissting Indian enemies and arm twisting to the extent where they sent their battleships to India. This was true as late as early 80's(definitely till Indira Gandhi was the PM). During late 80's and mid 90's when Kashmir blew up USA did nothing for India knowing fully well Pakistan had a key hand in it. Bombay blast happened, perpetrators ran to Pakistan. For a country that rules Pakistan behind the scenes I find it hard to beleive it did not know about blast or about the perpetrators. Pakistan jehadists poured into India, Indian diplomats kept shouting but USA turned deaf ears. Situations changed circa 911. Why? Because suddenly their arse is on the line. And what do they expect? "You are either with us or against us". Why should I give them support knowing they never were there to help us? And that they created the monsters we battled anyways - from Pakistan to Al-Qaeda xxx

Why not hey don't you point fingers at Modi/Advani without any evidence ( they are indian leaders too u know ) I am sure the fact that Rajeev gandhi sent troops there is not under disupte is it..:hysterical: For the zillionth time it's not about supporting them it;ls about supporting us.. us islam-love is stopping u from seeing this obvious fact but that doesn;t change the fact. Unless u think taliban is good for india then I concede:haha:

[Guest dada_rocks]

So the man who doesnt know much about India's 60 year history and is more than willing to forget USA'a action vis a vis India is now gonna talk about 300-400 year old history. Excuse me if I find it lacking credibility. :wink_smile:

Hey chest-thumping aside but anyday anytime anywhere u can come on any subject.. I know in days of google scholarship has become cheap .. but u have my words on that.. Communazi supporter's ( anti-independend movement folks) support is not much worthy anyway.. Do u want to hear again ur favourite secular ruler tipu sultan's letters..It's treatise on secularism.. go ahead read again..

“excerpts from Tipu's letters as researched by the distinguished Kerala historian K. M. Panicker, which he reviewed in the Bhasha Poshini magazine, August 1923: 1. Letter dated March 22, 1788, to Abdul Kadir: "Over 12,000 Hindus were honoured with Islam. There were many Namboodri Brahmins among them. This achievement should be widely publicised among the Hindus. Then the local Hindus should be brought before you and converted to Islam. No Namboodri Brahmin should be spared. " 2. Letter dated December 14, 1988, to his army chief in Calicut: " I am sending two of my followers with Mir Hussain Ali. With their assistance, you should capture and kill all Hindus. Those below 20 may be kept in prison and 5000 from the rest should be killed from the tree-tops. These are my orders." 3. Letter dated January 18, 1790, to Syed Abdul Dulai: " ...almost all Hindus in Calicut are converted to Islam. I consider this as Jehad." The anthology also quotes from A Voyage to the East Indies by Fra Barthoelomeo, a renowned Portuguese traveller and historian, who was present in Tipu's war zone in early 1790: "First a corps of 30,000 barbarians who butchered everybody on the way ... followed by the field gun unit under the French commander, M. Lally. Tipu was riding on an elephant behind which another army of 30,000 soldiers followed. Most of the men and women were hanged in Calicut, first mothers were hanged with their children tied to necks of mothers. That barbarian Tipu Sultan tied the naked Christian and Hindus to the legs of elephants and made the elephants to move around till the bodies of the helpless victims were torn to pieces. Temples and churches were ordered to be burned down, desecrated, and destroyed. ... Those Christians who refused to be honoured with Islam were ordered to be killed by hanging immediately. These atrocities were told to me by the victims of Tipu Sultan who escaped from the clutches of his army and reached Varapphuza, which is the centre of Carmichael Christian Mission. I myself helped many victims to cross the Varapphuza river by boats."

Are u ashamed of urself for supporting characters like this or not........ Just yes or no will do

[Lurker]

^^Trust you to delve into Tipu Sultan and Aurangzeb when you can't anwer the straight questions. Anyway if you choose to be ignorant so be it. Cant waste anymore time.

[The Outsider]

As I said what benefit comes out of this.. so they are supporting pak/saudi.. how are we going to benfit from not moving forward in the front where they do see eye to eye with us....

Huh? I think I've outlined it pretty clearly. But what do you mean by support? Words, sure, I've got no problem. "Go USA, crush Taliban". Support like sending our troops to Afghanistan? Hell no. Taliban was never a direct threat to India till Pakistan became involved and we send our troops to Afghanistan to drive the militia into Pakistan where they will receive government backing and aid to mount insurgency in Kashmir, Hell No. Will US listen to us when these militia step it up in Kashmir. They won't. They would have destroyed their basic network capable of attacking US homeland and will watch the fun.

[kumble_rocks]

If it was just limited to the past' date=' that would be fine. They are doing it at present as well by supporting and funding two India's biggest adversaries. How anyone in their right minds can expect us to support the strengthening of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia is beyond me. When Taliban is quelled to the extent US feels its homeland is safe they will exit leaving behind a ten times more potent force in Pakistan to screw our happiness and guess what we would have played a part in creation of that force.[/quote'] Good Post .Very true. It's beyond me why some posters here do not get this.

[Guest dada_rocks]

India/Israel facts [ although don't know the relevance of this red-herirng in this debate but anyway here it goes]

(1)In the Pre-Independence period, Gandhi, Nehru and the Indian National Congress had opposed the creation of a ‘Jewish National Home’.

(2) India did not subscribe to the majority plan of United Nations Special Committee on Palestine recommending partition of Palestine.

(3) India voted against the admission of Israel into the United Nations in May 1949

Despite the official line propagated by Nehru, the entire spectrum of India’s Opposition parties from the Left (Communists and Socialist parties of all hues) to the Right (Jan Sangh and Swantantra Party) ceaselessly stressed the need for close political and economic ties with Israel. The stubborn opposition to establish diplomatic relations with Israel arose from the Nehru - Gandhi regimes of the Congress Party being captives to domestic compulsions of appeasement of Muslim minorities (support for Arab causes) and a greed for Muslim votes. Ironically the first Janata Govt. did not change things either. India’s current Minister of External Affairs had to concede during an address to the Israel Council on Foreign Relations that "India’s Israel policy became a captive to domestic policy that came to be unwillingly as unstated veto to India’s larger West Asian Policy". In other words to exclude Israel from all Indian contacts. India’s Military and Intelligence Contacts with Israel in the Years Before Diplomatic Recognition (1) In the military field in India’s critical hour of need of the 1971 war with Pakistan, India sought Israel’s help to supply it with the devastating artillery weapon, 160 mm mortars and ammunition, exclusively manufactured in Israel. And Israel not only obliged but kept that a secret at India's insistence. Mind you there was no formal dimplomatic relationship it only started in 92 and we still asked help and got help.

India’s Recent Defence Purchases from Israel and Areas of Potential Interest

Recent defence purchases by India from Israel as reported include the following:

* Artillery Guns 130mm upgradation to 155mm- 180

(To be done in Israel)

* Artillery Guns 130mm upgradation to 155mm- 250

21

(To be done in India)

* Battlefield surveillance radars (Artillery) – 250

* Battlefield surveillance radars hand held (Infantry)- unspecified

* Fast attack naval craft Super Davora – 2 plus four to be built in India.

* Electronic Warfare System for INS VIRAT (aircraft carrier)

* 160mm Mortar ammunition - 30,000 rounds

* 130mm artillery gun ammunition - 50,000 rounds

* 125mm shells (for tanks) - 100,000 rounds

* 5.56 mm ammunition for rifles - Unspecified 22

* Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs) - 8 in 1999 for surveillance purposes (Army) - 20 in 2000

* Indian Navy (UAV) requirements (Shipborne) - 50 23

* Russian MI 35 helicopter prototype upgradation - 2524

with Israeli avionics and night vision devices.

* India seeking defence equipment worth- unspecified number25

$ 200 million to include UAVs, avionics

for IAF SU – 30 MK I, MIG 27 ML, and

JAGUAR upgrades Fire Control radars

During the Kargil War, Israel responded magnificently, despite pressures from various quarters not to supply. UAVs for high altitude surveillance, laser – guided systems and many other items were supplied within 24 hours. Israel is reported to have emerged as India’s No.2 defence supplier after Russia,

and with costs of Russian spare parts for replacement escalating by 300-500%, Israel may emerge as India’s No. 1 defence supplier.

India is presently faced with the daunting prospect of buying immediately $200 million worth of ammunition and further $ 1.5 billion later to make up for losses in recent fires at Indian Army Amunition Depots. Israel may be the only source for immediate replacement.

In terms of areas of potential Indian interest in Israeli defence equipment, briefly it can narrow down to the following items.

* Submarine launched cruise missiles.

* Micro-satellite systems for surveillance which can be launched from aircraft or in clusters from a missile.

* Laser guided systems and precision – guided mention munitions (PGMs)

* Anti – ballistic missile systems.

* Upgradation of all Soviet – origin aircraft, artillery, tanks etc.

* Radars of all types.

But all these are eyewash important thing is Israel selling weapons to LTTE (BTW we went their in favour of LTTE so who knows who finalized this deal for LTTE) when we had no diplomatic relations with Israel must be parrotted in national interest.. With deshbhakts llike this nobody needs desh-drohi.

I say grow some brain-cells to these desh-bhakts, it's never too late to mend

.

[Guest dada_rocks]

^^Trust you to delve into Tipu Sultan and Aurangzeb when you can't anwer the straight questions. Anyway if you choose to be ignorant so be it. Cant waste anymore time.

eveer freaking red-herring dropping can be traced to you.. Didnt you change the debate to why BB castigates islmis rulers of yore in mid-way...Every irrelevant topic being disucssed in thsi debate comes from you be it USSr or some islamic ruler..otherwise my questioning is simple.. just point in what way we benfit from damsel-in-distress policy and ur answer so far have dwelt upon how not to be of help to usa even if ti comes at the cost of our own self-interest.. Not smart by any stretch of imagination..

[Guest dada_rocks]

Good Post .Very true. It's beyond me why some posters here do not get this.

Nobody is denying that so i don't see point of posting it again and again my point is what does India gain from not taking part in taliban crushing.. What does USa nto gain part is understood but I am nto interested in that.. so far nobody has even remotely tried to answer that.. All u hear is red-herring dropping of ussr this that..

[Guest dada_rocks]

Huh? I think I've outlined it pretty clearly. But what do you mean by support? Words, sure, I've got no problem. "Go USA, crush Taliban". Support like sending our troops to Afghanistan? Hell no. Taliban was never a direct threat to India till Pakistan became involved and we send our troops to Afghanistan to drive the militia into Pakistan where they will receive government backing and aid to mount insurgency in Kashmir, Hell No. Will US listen to us when these militia step it up in Kashmir. They won't. They would have destroyed their basic network capable of attacking US homeland and will watch the fun.

You jumped the gun on level of cooperation we are still to get there at first this has to be establsihed that taliban is a menace for India.. By helping anyone crush taliban we will be helping ourselves. i am finding hard to hit home this basic thing to islam lovers. technicality of hwo to do that comes later So u are claiming taliban is no threat to India. Man every lashkar this and that had training ground in Afghanistan how can u say that taliban is not our enemey. Do u think if not for taliban those air india hijackers wud have had easy haven..

[The Outsider]

So u are claiming taliban is no threat to India.

Do you have a problem understanding English? Tenses? Etc.? I have no time to waste trying to educate you in English.

[kumble_rocks]

Nobody is denying that so i don't see point of posting it again and again my point is what does India gain from not taking part in taliban crushing.. What does USa nto gain part is understood but I am nto interested in that.. so far nobody has even remotely tried to answer that.. All u hear is red-herring dropping of ussr this that..

You don't answer anything Dada. You are living in a fool's paradise , if you think that aligning with USA will help our cause. We have been crushing the Taliban by aligning with Northern Alliance and USSR much before 9-11. So spare me with your lectures.

[Guest dada_rocks]

You don't answer anything Dada. You are living in a fool's paradise ' date=' if you think that aligning with USA will help our cause. We have been crushing the Taliban by aligning with Northern Alliance and USSR much before 9-11. So spare me with your lectures.[/quote'] Let me get it straight we have been crushing taliban so successfully that taliban from being a fringe player became a major player.What is it olympics where participation counts success can go to dust-bin, and u claim I am living in fool's paradise. If taliban's removal is our cause then I don't know what we have been doing all these years USA's effort seems to work better. Taliban now at least doesn't control kabul as opposed to our heydays of jointindo/russian effort where they were well ensconced in kabul.. For a second let us assume we were pretty successfull in crushing Taliban with some weird definiton of success. What gain comes out of not aligning efforts with yet another player which is working towards the same goal. Once again the question goes unanswered. Don't kid yourself Russia has too much on its plate to give a crap about taliban.

[Guest dada_rocks]

Do you have a problem understanding English? Tenses? Etc.? I have no time to waste trying to educate you in English.

I guess u have problem with answering question directly.. taliban was never a problem... who the heck cares what it was it's problme today and that's all matters.. end of story..

[The Outsider]

I guess u have problem with answering question directly.. taliban was never a problem... who the heck cares what it was it's problme today and that's all matters.. end of story..

The answer is there in front of you and many people have understood it as well. Time for you to grab a Wren and Martin.

[Gaurav]

Lets hear this now. How did USA help us in Kargil.

I said helped INDIRECTLY! It did that by putting pressure on Pakistan. Things could have got lot more messy if a full blown war had broken out! U.S. Administration clearly and publicly increased the pressure on Pakistan to withdraw its troops, while carefully ensuring that India's leaders were apprised of U.S. actions and perceptions. At the diplomatic climax of the conflict, for example, when Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif was meeting with President Clinton on the 4 th of July, the U.S. President telephoned Vajpayee several times to brief the Indian leader on the progress of the talks.[19] In its campaign to urge restraint on New Delhi, Washington was also successful in orchestrating approaches by other capitals, recognizing India's legitimate security interests but stressing the international importance of holding the combat to a limited, manageable level. Based on objective analysis and a conscious effort to enhance bilateral ties, U.S. support during the Kargil crisis was instrumental in introducing an unprecedented degree of trust and openness into U.S.-India relations.

Speaking of friendship with Israel do you agree that Israel is one of the party that is rumoured to be part of Indira Gandhi assassination?

Rumoured? You watch Arab channels every day or something? :hysterical::hysterical::hysterical: There is a rumour that you are a jihadi....is it true Lurker? Rumours are dime a dozen.

And that Israeli weapons and training was responsible for deaths of many Indian IPKF(Indian Peace Keeping Forces) in Sri Lanks?

:hysterical::hysterical::hysterical::hysterical: What a silly point! Shows that you are absolutely clueless! You are willing to blame Israel for any weapons that LTTE might have used against us a a direct result of Rajiv Gandhi's brain fart but you are dismissing the direct help that Israel gave us during Kargil conflict ?

And how did Israel help us in Kargil?

During the Kargil War, Israel provided several military hardware including laser guided bombs, unmanned aerial vehicles....etc etc Edit- I see that DR posted a more complete list. Despite of India's unwillingness to establish diplomatic relations with it, Israel offered help to India during the 1971 war in the form of intelligence gathering and military equipment. India, realizing that its boycott of Israel was tactically wrong, accepted the help offer. For India and Israel, the common potential enemy was Pakistan, a Muslim nation committed to helping the Arab countries of the Middle East.[10][11] The Indian military extensively used Israeli 166mm mortar and ammunition during the war.[12] In fact, Pakistan had sent its pilots to fight with the Arab nations against Israel during the Six day war of 1967, and Israel wanted to do the same against Pakistan by helping India. In 1986, the members of the Organization of Islamic Conference (OIC) issued a joint declaration supporting Pakistan's claim over Kashmir. The OIC statement came even though India had officially supported the Arab cause for more than 3 decades. Israel has emerged as the second largest military hardware and software supplier to India after Russia. Linky- But earlier this year, the Indian government released figures showing that in 2006 it bought $1.5 billion in weapons from Israel. That made New Delhi Israel’s largest customer for the year, ahead of the No. 2 U.S. You still did not answer my question about how our friend Russia supplies arms to our enemy China? One thing I can't stand is when people apply selective logic. Almost half of the $6 billion Russian arms sales last year went to Beijing. I guess those arms in case of a conflict won't hurt us as USSR helped us in the past :haha: Lurker you are too deep for me mate so I am out! You win as I will never be able to match your holy deepness :hysterical: No hard feelings.

[CC1981]

BS norway doesn;t wualify for obvious reaosn as I said even wahabi islam workls in countries like this.. denamark sweden these socialist cornucopia will go to dogs if capoitalist countries they do business with starts socialism.. In nutsheel these are pasiaste village states idologically. Now can we talk about a nation instead of villages pleae..

Umm ok..you OFICIALLY know squat about economic theory then. Tis a pity. First you deny that Norway/Sweden/Finland/Denmark are socialist economies. When corrected, you come out with this spiel. Get this clear- Scandinavian countries are rated by the WTO, World Bank, UN and most top-shelf economists like Amartya Sen as the BEST ECONOMIC MODEL in the world. Clearly, it has very little to do with 'depending on capitalists or going to dogs if these trading partners start socialism'.

[CC1981]

Because of glaring facts watson glaring facts.. Deshbhakti from the mouth of communazis is so out of place do you want me to pull off what these deshbhakts were doing when rest of india was fihgitng for independence. They were sleeping with British. So spare me the lecture.. All the psecs communaizs put together won;t come even close to what RSS has done and still is doing for India.. if u have any doubts just let me know we can exchange data. Just a glimpse: Communazis raise money for China in chian war while RSS untrained individual pitch in with holding the supply line.. So much so that even nehru had to accept it..

Communists or your inappropriate term (communazi) has nothing to do with the discussion here. Nothing to do with p-secs here either and i dont know who you are directing it towards- Me, Swetabh, Lurker, etc. are secular, not psuedo-secular. Pseudo-secular is you and your saffron-wadi parties who pretend to be secular but push a hindu agenda. I never claimed that communists have done a lot for India- but IMO, RSS has done less meaningful stuff than the communist govenment of Kerala/Tripura. And speaking of facts- its funny since YOU are the one clueless about facts. You in your supreme ignorance speak some moronic spiel about America being anti-India because of Nehru's cozyness with the Russians- when it is a FACT that Nehru became cozy with the Russians AFTER Roosevelt died and Trueman came to power (and Trueman was extremely racist as well as anti-independence). You ignorantly speak of India's financial ruin to Nehruvian policies when again, it is a recognised FACT that Nehru's five-year plans were highly successful and India's financial crisis came due to the Rupee supporting several other FOREIGN economies. In short, India's ties to the USSR make perfect justifiable sense over ties with USA in the cold war period and its only the USKCs and Dollar-slaves like yourself that will deny FACTS. So now vats, instead of running or trying to make smoke, acknowledge the facts.