King Tendulkar Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 What war are you talking about. Also' date=' let me get this straight . USA creates a frankenstein monster called Taliban which are the root cause of global Islamic terrorism and now wants to fight it.. We should simply join them ? And for what purpose ? Also, no repercussions for their part in creating Taliban ? Pardon me , but your above statements sounds ridiculous. Our interest does not match Western interest when it comes to security issues. Period.[/quote'] Er islamic terror has been their way before USA got ivolved. Look how Inida has suffered. USA is not to blame neither is the west. Lets keep this real Islam and its followers are the ones to blame. No excuse for their action at ALL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dada_rocks Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 What war are you talking about. Also' date=' let me get this straight . USA creates a frankenstein monster called Taliban which are the root cause of global Islamic terrorism and now wants to fight it.. [b']We should simply join them ? And for what purpose ? Also, no repercussions for their part in creating Taliban ? Pardon me , but your above statements sounds ridiculous. Our interest does not match Western interest when it comes to security issues. Period. How many times I will have to repeat the same thing.. See ur judgement of what is in best interest of India seems to get clouded by what USA did in past. And ur suggestion smacks of we should do sthg to spite USA face even if it comes at the cost of our self-interest. Containing islamic fanatics is our self-interest just because it also happens to be their interest these days doesn't change anything in my view. I don't care who created Taliban and how all i care is Taliban in body and spirirt needs to be checked and I am going to shake hands with anyone who has the same goal. Instead of being happy about the fact that the grievance which we had about usa that they support these clowns is no more u much rather sit and keep dwelling on past. Noone is suggesting USA has made turn-aroun on India's behest. Everyone knows they are doing their own bidding. Yes we should not join them, we should join our self-interest, can't make it any clearer than that; drop that chip of what usa did in past and u will see the light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tendulkar Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 How many times I will have to repeat the same thing.. See ur judgement of what is in best interest of India seems to get clouded by what USA did in past. And ur suggestion smacks of we should do sthg to spite USA face even if it comes at the cost of our self-interest. Containing islamic fanatics is our self-interest just because it also happens to be their interest these days doesn't change anything in my view. I don't care who created Taliban and how all i care is Taliban in body and spirirt needs to be checked and I am going to shake hands with anyone who has the same goal. Instead of being happy about the fact that the grievance which we had about usa that they support these clowns is no more u much rather sit and keep dwelling on past. Noone is suggesting USA has made turn-aroun on India's behest. Everyone knows they are doing their own bidding. Yes we should not join them, we should join our self-interest, can't make it any clearer than that; drop that chip of what usa did in past and u will see the light. Agree. USA is not our enemy nor is the west! Isamic maniacs are. I am not interested in possible causes for islamic ways just interested in stopping it. Pak loonys are gunning for india blood no matter what usa or west does. Its suits us to side with west for so many reasons so thats what we will do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kumble_rocks Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 Er islamic terror has been their way before USA got ivolved. Look how Inida has suffered. And how does supporting USA help our cause ? They have declared Pakistan and Saudi Arabia as their closest allies in the war against terrorism. So, in effect the very source of these terrors are their allies . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 Yes we should not join them, we should join our self-interest, can't make it any clearer than that; drop that chip of what usa did in past and u will see the light. DR, All thing being equal are you for trusting Chinese too? xxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kumble_rocks Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 How many times I will have to repeat the same thing.. See ur judgement of what is in best interest of India seems to get clouded by what USA did in past. And ur suggestion smacks of we should do sthg to spite USA face even if it comes at the cost of our self-interest. Containing islamic fanatics is our self-interest just because it also happens to be their interest these days doesn't change anything in my view. I don't care who created Taliban and how all i care is Taliban in body and spirirt needs to be checked and I am going to shake hands with anyone who has the same goal. Instead of being happy about the fact that the grievance which we had about usa that they support these clowns is no more u much rather sit and keep dwelling on past. Noone is suggesting USA has made turn-aroun on India's behest. Everyone knows they are doing their own bidding. Yes we should not join them, we should join our self-interest, can't make it any clearer than that; drop that chip of what usa did in past and u will see the light. I don't care what you repeat or what you don't repeat. Try to be a straight shooter if you can. You dig up all sorts of past history to judge Indian Muslims case in point circa 1947 and don't want to extend the same courtesy to USA. I fail to understand this kind SKC mentality. Get this , USA are not our friends. They have NEVER BEEN our friends and I would proceed with caution in dealing with them. Nothing has changed even now. Did they declare Pakistan as a terrorist state . Hell No. Did they allow us to take out Pak Nukes . Hell No. Did they declare Saudi as a Islamic terrorist state . Hell No. Did they support Bin laden . Hell Yes. Did they support Taliban over Northern alliance in the 80's. Hell Yes. I remember Bheembhai making a statement to the effect we should learn our history which I tend to agree. History tells me that USA cannot be trusted. They need to do LOT MORE before they can earn brownie points from Indian Masses. I could care less about what few NRI's think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Outsider Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 Some really solid posts there, KR. We don't even have to go into the past or anything like 1000s of years of history as some out here take us to. Right at this moment, we have USA supporting two hotbeds of Islamic terrorism in the world ie. Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 I don't care what you repeat or what you don't repeat. Try to be a straight shooter if you can. You dig up all sorts of past history to judge Indian Muslims case in point circa 1947 and don't want to extend the same courtesy to USA. I fail to understand this kind SKC mentality. Get this ' date=' USA are not our friends. They have NEVER BEEN our friends and I would proceed with caution in dealing with them. Nothing has changed even now. Did they declare Pakistan as a terrorist state . Hell No. Did they allow us to take out Pak Nukes . Hell No. Did they declare Saudi as a Islamic terrorist state . Hell No. Did they support Bin laden . Hell Yes. Did they support Taliban over Northern alliance in the 80's. Hell Yes. I remember Bheembhai making a statement to the effect we should learn our history which I tend to agree. History tells me that USA cannot be trusted. They need to do LOT MORE before they can earn brownie points from Indian Masses. I could care less about what few NRI's think.[/quote'] Again I got to agree with you. I normally stay away from dragging a poster's stance on other subject into unrelated threads but this time I will make an exception. Yes if someone has issues with history it should be consistent. You can NOT pick and choose for your comfort etc etc. Fact of the matter is USA will always pick Middle East over India. End of the story. If someone here doesnt buy that he is living in delusion. USA is going to need a Pakistan, a Saudi Arabia lot more than it does India. Heck the main reason why they need India is to keep another Asian giant - China - in check. One recent development that has absolutely pi$$es me off is how bad Indo-Russian relation has become over the years. When USA was flexing muslces in Arabian Sea as show of support for Pakistan guess which country had the galls to stand up to it. Of course trust modern day Indians to forget all of that as history and kowtow to the West for dollars. Choosing of lesser evils my rear end, its all about many of us living in West and following their line of thoughts. xxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kumble_rocks Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 Again I got to agree with you. I normally stay away from dragging a poster's stance on other subject into unrelated threads but this time I will make an exception. Yes if someone has issues with history it should be consistent. You can NOT pick and choose for your comfort etc etc. Fact of the matter is USA will always pick Middle East over India. End of the story. If someone here doesnt buy that he is living in delusion. USA is going to need a Pakistan, a Saudi Arabia lot more than it does India. Heck the main reason why they need India is to keep another Asian giant - China - in check. One recent development that has absolutely pi$$es me off is how bad Indo-Russian relation has become over the years. When USA was flexing muslces in Arabian Sea as show of support for Pakistan guess which country had the galls to stand up to it. Of course trust modern day Indians to forget all of that as history and kowtow to the West for dollars. Choosing of lesser evils my rear end, its all about many of us living in West and following their line of thoughts. xxx Got to agree with you. We don't want to make the same mistakes USA did. This theory of "Enemy of your Enemy is my Friend", tends to backfire always. USA suffered because of this. After all they supported Bin laden and Taliban over secular government of Najibullah backed by USSR. They supported a Islamic dictator in Zia over secular India. And we are just talking about history few decades ago. We cannot blindly support western powers who have their own agenda . And for anybody suggest that Western interests matches our self interests reeks ignorance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kumble_rocks Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 Some really solid posts there' date=' KR. We don't even have to go into the past or anything like 1000s of years of history as some out here take us to. Right at this moment, we have USA supporting two hotbeds of Islamic terrorism in the world ie. Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.[/quote'] Agree with your point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 Ever wonder why US went with Pak & Co instead of going with India ... in the first place ? Err no. Care to enlighten why US "went" with Pak and co? And what have we learnt from our past mistakes ...NOTHING Zilch ..... also why do we have to care about the morals/ethics of USA ? Why does the US need to earn any brownie points from anybody ? They dont get anything out of appeasing India ... else they would have already done that. Heres the bottomline in the world of Politics and dog-eat-dog ..... "There are No Rules" . We are more concerned about what others might think or how it might hurt our own stupid meaningless "adarshwaad" .... (however our own people can die by the thousands and it wont hurt one bit). Does that sound oppurtunistic and materialistic ... Damn right it is... else we will be had for lunch breakfast and dinner by any of our more than eager harami tinpot nations that surround us. They openly state that FFS. With that being said how in the world do you get the galls to criticize Islamic rulers in India then BB? US goes with its interest, Islamic rulers went with theirs. Case closed. Why harp on moral semantics for one and not for the others? xxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dada_rocks Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 I don't care what you repeat or what you don't repeat. Try to be a straight shooter if you can. You dig up all sorts of past history to judge Indian Muslims case in point circa 1947 and don't want to extend the same courtesy to USA. I fail to understand this kind SKC mentality. Get this ' date=' USA are not our friends. They have NEVER BEEN our friends and I would proceed with caution in dealing with them. Nothing has changed even now. Did they declare Pakistan as a terrorist state . Hell No. Did they allow us to take out Pak Nukes . Hell No. Did they declare Saudi as a Islamic terrorist state . Hell No. Did they support Bin laden . Hell Yes. Did they support Taliban over Northern alliance in the 80's. Hell Yes. I remember Bheembhai making a statement to the effect we should learn our history which I tend to agree. History tells me that USA cannot be trusted. They need to do LOT MORE before they can earn brownie points from Indian Masses. I could care less about what few NRI's think.[/quote'] Because that is relevant even today we have an isalmic menace in our society and here looking at history helps to understand why they do what they do.. If tomrorrow that proleem disappears I will throw that part of istory in dustbin.. U can keep discussing that part then for the sake of historical competeness of discusision. I don't have time for irrelevant crap I gues I have made it clear many times but somehow u miss this part.... You here keep harping america created Taliban hence we will not fight taliban even if that means going agist our own interest.. Who says anyone is anyone's freind. it's converegence of interest.. I guess it's not such a pretzel concept to comprehend, is it... And for the zillionth time where does trusting anyone comes in picture ...Why just USA you can't trust anyone in matters of foreign policies it's all about keeping eyes open and watching one's back and that demands cooperation .. You once again are showing your naivete in askin did they declare paki/saudi terrorists state no.... They are watching their own interest we are watching our own... It so happens in one case it's one and same then why not reap dividends ther.. There is no place for emotion in these matters.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dada_rocks Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 Again I got to agree with you. I normally stay away from dragging a poster's stance on other subject into unrelated threads but this time I will make an exception. Yes if someone has issues with history it should be consistent. You can NOT pick and choose for your comfort etc etc. Fact of the matter is USA will always pick Middle East over India. End of the story. If someone here doesnt buy that he is living in delusion. USA is going to need a Pakistan, a Saudi Arabia lot more than it does India. Heck the main reason why they need India is to keep another Asian giant - China - in check. One recent development that has absolutely pi$$es me off is how bad Indo-Russian relation has become over the years. When USA was flexing muslces in Arabian Sea as show of support for Pakistan guess which country had the galls to stand up to it. Of course trust modern day Indians to forget all of that as history and kowtow to the West for dollars. Choosing of lesser evils my rear end, its all about many of us living in West and following their line of thoughts. xxx Again selctive reading at work. This is not the first time KR is harping onwhy u are nto discusisng this and that crap.. He has doen it in past and I have made it clear whihc history interests me the history which has relevance today.. I read at islamist behaviour because they still are involved in same $hit and there history helps to gauge why someone behave the way oen does.. I am not going to waste my time discussing history which has no relevance.. You guys are suggesting time-warp in matter of national policy so Russia came to the resuce hence we ask Russia before taking decision on every matter. Guess what russia/usa is no longer zero sum game. For pete's sake Russia today is part of NATO ( I hope u understand what this means )and u expect indian policiies to remain tstuck in 70's. BTW let us accept everything which u guys are saying can someone tell me what does India gain by not coperating in trampling these taliban type. Just one positive will do.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dada_rocks Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 Some really solid posts there' date=' KR. We don't even have to go into the past or anything like 1000s of years of history as some out here take us to. Right at this moment, we have USA supporting two hotbeds of Islamic terrorism in the world ie. Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.[/quote'] YEs they think that's their self-interest I am sure it;s not emotion-driven decision unlike stance we are strivin to take.. Who cares what anyone did in past today that someone's policy I find in consonance with my policy in certain matters . I will reap dividends out of this eventuality , plain and simple. Self-interest at work no baggae of emotion. Seriously can't see the relavnce of usa does this that anywhere else. Yeah wud love to have it all on every matter but what's the sense of going against our own ineterst in matters where we see eye to eye; just because we can't have our way on others.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dada_rocks Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 DR, All thing being equal are you for trusting Chinese too? xxx Trust is different matter I don't trust nobody in matters of statesmanship and moreover there is basic existential difference between China and India unlike USA and India, which is democracy/communism. Still if self-inetrest demands shaking hands mind you not blindly trusting on certain matters I am all for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 You guys are suggesting time-warp in matter of national policy so Russia came to the resuce hence we ask Russia before taking decision on every matter. Guess what russia/usa is no longer zero sum game. For pete's sake Russia today is part of NATO ( I hope u understand what this means )and u expect indian policiies to remain tstuck in 70's. Okay so help me understand why do you have to swing to extremism at the drop of hat? That I suggested India should inculcate good relationship with Russia, more so since historically it has been our single biggest benefactor. How does that translate into - we ask Russia before taking decision on every matter - your words not mine. Since you keep on harping ad-nauseum on Kashmir do you want me to open the books on USA's records on Kashmir? And would you want me to sit here and give Russia's record of the same?? BTW let us accept everything which u guys are saying can someone tell me what does India gain by not coperating in trampling these taliban type. Here is a simple example that shall suffice. Remember the time USA started doing airstrikes in Afganistan? Remember how Indian Government was running with pants around its ankles trying to pedal itself as the runaway from where such strikes could be launched and/or help with the refueling of the jets? Remember that? Even before the formal request was made we were only too eager. What happened? USA launched the strikes from Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. Apne haath kya aaya? Ghanta. Moral of the story - Dont fall over yourself trying to posture infront of USA/West. This is where we can learn a few things from China..But hey its a Communist country blah blah. xxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Outsider Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 YEs they think that's their self-interest I am sure it;s not emotion-driven decision unlike stance we are strivin to take.. Who cares what anyone did in past today that someone's policy I find in consonance with my policy in certain matters . I will reap dividends out of this eventuality , plain and simple. Self-interest at work no baggae of emotion. Seriously can't see the relavnce of usa does this that anywhere else. It is a PRESENT DAY FACT that the US is supporting and funding two of India's biggest terrorist threats ie. Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dada_rocks Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 Okay so help me understand why do you have to swing to extremism at the drop of hat? That I suggested India should inculcate good relationship with Russia, more so since historically it has been our single biggest benefactor. How does that translate into - we ask Russia before taking decision on every matter - your words not mine. Since you keep on harping ad-nauseum on Kashmir do you want me to open the books on USA's records on Kashmir? And would you want me to sit here and give Russia's record of the same?? first of all i could not get why issue of russia was raised in first place .. i mean so I am advocating cooperating with usa in tackling taliban body and spirit why it will jeopardize our relations with russia first throw some light on that.. Whatever I said said in ackdrops of this russia issue being raised.. If u were just using red herring by invoking russia then drop my comments.. I am fully aware what USA being in Pakistan camp has done on kashmir issue but I don't see the point of not cooperating with them in our self-interest driven stance on taliban style people. What good comes out of it.. You guys make a lot fo assumption noone is calling USA a virtuous soul heck they are anything but why must we remain bogged into debate of that when for a change some policy of their seems to be in consonance with ours.. Here is a simple example that shall suffice. Remember the time USA started doing airstrikes in Afganistan? Remember how Indian Government was running with pants around its ankles trying to pedal itself as the runaway from where such strikes could be launched and/or help with the refueling of the jets? Remember that? Even before the formal request was made we were only too eager. What happened? USA launched the strikes from Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. Apne haath kya aaya? Ghanta. Moral of the story - Dont fall over yourself trying to posture infront of USA/West. This is where we can learn a few things from China..But hey its a Communist country blah blah. xxx That was the single most idiotic step of NDA govt. I still fail to comprehend how a think-tak on Jaswant singh and Brajesh mishra could mesh it up like that. But see all we lost is our face due to our own exuberance. Regarding apne hath kya aaya.. Are u kidding me.. we got India-friendly govt in place as opposed to taliban era where we had zero presence and kabul had turned into mere extension of islamabad.. Whether they took our support or not we did benefit from that episode. It's different case all I am asking is streamlining the interest falling over question doesn't even arise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dada_rocks Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 It is a PRESENT DAY FACT that the US is supporting and funding two of India's biggest terrorist threats ie. Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. And my point is they are at least kicking the third one called taliban/al-qaida so why not take that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Outsider Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 And my point is they are at least kicking the third one called taliban/al-qaida so why not take that. In the process making the other two stronger with our support to kick us harder later on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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