CC1981 Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 I.E. that beauty is subjective. Great way to avoid the real meat of the discussion. He took an exception to my comment that the violin is more versatile to the guitar and said no, it is subjective. How is it avoiding the meat of the discussion when i informed him that it clearly isn't so ? Again i say, i am not asking you to LIKE jazz more than heavy metal. Hate jazz for all i care. All i am asking is that realize that it is a musical FACT that jazz is better piece of music than heavy metal. Unless you adhere to (the rather dumb) philosophy that all noise is music and all music is therefore noise, there is a very clear-cut and quantifiable fact that some music is better than some other forms of music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CC1981 Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 Incorrect - because some people prefer simplicity to complexity. Thus for them, the simpler piece would be the superior one. Not about simplicity or complexity. It is about how well the music is MADE. Most heavy metal, unfortunately, is simply not well made music. Too many 'out of tune, out of beat, out of scale' errors strewn in heavy metal, thus making it cr@p music. ofcourse, the untrained ear cannot pick up this difference, especially when the said music scores a near-zero in tonal clarity ( amplified music have very little tonal clarity). Whereas some people think it takes more skill to write a minimalist song. Only if you write it well. If most of your minimalist songs are utterly botched in its scale-changes & tonal rendition, it is cr@p. Period. Same with heavy-metal. Most heavy-metal musicians arnt very good musicians, period. Simply because most of them cannot sing in tune, most of them cannot play in tune and most of them cannot harmonicize their music with one another- Dreamtheatre is an exception, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 All i am asking is that realize that it is a musical FACT that jazz is better piece of music than heavy metal. Unless you adhere to (the rather dumb) philosophy that all noise is music and all music is therefore noise, there is a very clear-cut and quantifiable fact that some music is better than some other forms of music. Fair point that. Popularity is no yardstick for the measurement of arts. Heck you only have to look at Bollywood to realize who the biggest "artists" are today. I personally love jazz, nothing beats jazz on a long drive over a evening. Would I trade it with a Ozzy Osbourne heavy metal or Tupac's ©rap? My answer is:reddy: Again if someone likes it all power to them. xx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gorah_pindu Posted July 17, 2007 Author Share Posted July 17, 2007 True...sometimes it is a good thing, sometimes it isnt. This BDSM thing is in the latter category. Any reason? Cos 'I dont like it, so its crap' isnt good enough. Because beauty *isnt* in the eye of the beholder here. As i said- favour whatever you want- but don't be ridiculous enough to claim that all music is just a subjective opinion.It isnt. And until you learn the basics of music, you wont see it either ! Just as how you cannot see the beauty of Islam until you have experienced it! Inshallah. Very much so. As i said, you can be benevolent, consentual, etc etc- still it has no bearing on the fact that this/that like of yours is twisted and sick ! "Its sick - cos I say so!!!!!!" Thanks, but ill stick to my (reasoned) opinion, I think. Agreed. But to extrapolate its exact converse is in effect supporting anarchism, since now you have absolutely no basis on saying murdering a baby is wrong or killing your mom is wrong. This is a common Christian/Muslim argument. Read 'The God Delusion' Chaper 6, or something. Or just take a philosophy class. True. My father doesnt like jazz. But he knows that jazz is a better musical artform than bollywood masala songs. You are free to like what you want - but do not confuse that to mean that all music is made equal- it very clearly, isn't. Lets not change the subject - you didnt start this by saying: "Metal is technologically inferior." You started this by saying: "Metal is 99% cr@p." So, you point about confusing artforms is irrelevent, and was introduced by you. Also, I would dispute the technical achievements anyway - because some guitarists that you have no doubt never heard of, could give a jazz musician a run for his/her money in virtuosity and technical accomplishment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holysmoke Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 Simple fact is, it isnt. A guitar cannot be tuned as precisely as a violin, its flexibility of notes & clarity isnt as good as a violin and guitar cannot change as many scales as a violin. All those are facts. All those facts is what defines melody. All these make the violin more melodious. Again as i say, music is closer to logic & science than just down to simple taste. You may LIKE the guitar more and that is fine- but it is patently inaccurate to say that the guitar is more melodious than the violin when factually, it isnt so. melody • noun (pl. melodies) 1 a sequence of notes that is musically satisfying; a tune. 2 the main part in harmonized music. thats what melody means. just because a violin can give u 20,000 more notes than a guitar, can go more scales than a guitar, doesnt mean it is better. That is subjective. Melody is a sequence of notes. I might find a sequence of 3 particular notes as the most melodious piece of music i have ever heard, while you might need atleast 5 different notes in a melody to even call it satisfactory.You are clearly missing the point. The violin may be more versatile than the guitar, but it isnt more melodious.. that depends on what the listener finds melodious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gorah_pindu Posted July 17, 2007 Author Share Posted July 17, 2007 Unless you adhere to (the rather dumb) philosophy that all noise is music and all music is therefore noise, there is a very clear-cut and quantifiable fact that some music is better than some other forms of music. Noise is not 'music' in the traditional sense. But it can be used to create beauty. That is all most people care about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holysmoke Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 Fair point that. Popularity is no yardstick for the measurement of arts. Heck you only have to look at Bollywood to realize who the biggest "artists" are today. I personally love jazz, nothing beats jazz on a long drive over a evening. Would I trade it with a Ozzy Osbourne heavy metal or Tupac's ©rap? My answer is:reddy: Again if someone likes it all power to them. xx what about this? U5Nkg2U3wl8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CC1981 Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 Any reason? Cos 'I dont like it, so its crap' isnt good enough. Because it is deriving pleasure from an act/make-believe of something that is anti-respect and all about self-serving domination or self-pity. Just as how you cannot see the beauty of Islam until you have experienced it! Inshallah. Spoken like a truely clueless one. Next thing, i hope you do not go around equating all sciences as equal too- social science and physics :giggle: Thanks, but ill stick to my (reasoned) opinion, I think Anarchy & nihilism arnt reason- they are seeking differntiation simply for the sake of differentiation. Or just take a philosophy class. Oh but i have- with focus on Neitzche (which is why i found your quote the other day about nihilism to be hillarious- telling a guy who's read a lot of Neitzche to educate himself about nihilism is a pretty hillarious comment actually). because some guitarists that you have no doubt never heard of, could give a jazz musician a run for his/her money in virtuosity and technical accomplishment. True. But most jazz musicians can teach that guy a thing or two about playing in tune and in harmony. Metal is 99% cr@p because it is cr@p music, written & played mostly by people who are ad-hoc in their training and skill. Listening to most metal music is an exercise in listening to wannabes who cannot play in tune, cannot compose lyrics in flow and cannot change scales worth lick. heavy metal is (and always has been) too busy rebelling against the establishment to learn music properly and competently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 ^^ Abhi to I can not check that Holy, at work. What is it by the way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holysmoke Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 ^^ Abhi to I can not check that Holy' date=' at work. What is it by the way?[/quote'] JAL.. one of my fav songs.. people classify it as "Rock".. but i dont think it is..... I dont think I have heard a guitar being played that good.. ever.. I find his guitar better than mark knopfler.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CC1981 Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 thats what melody means. just because a violin can give u 20,000 more notes than a guitar, can go more scales than a guitar, doesnt mean it is better. That is subjective. The violin also gives you CLEARER notes, it also gives you more control in modulating notes. It also gives you a far more consistent note- yes, a C-minor note repeated over and over again in the violin is far more consistent in its sound than the same note playing on a guitar. The violin may be more versatile than the guitar, but it isnt more melodious.. An instrument with a wider range, clarity & consistency of notes *IS* as categorically more melodious an instrument as the moon is smaller than the earth. This is not about opinion here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gorah_pindu Posted July 17, 2007 Author Share Posted July 17, 2007 Not about simplicity or complexity. It is about how well the music is MADE. Most heavy metal, unfortunately, is simply not well made music. Too many 'out of tune, out of beat, out of scale' errors strewn in heavy metal, thus making it cr@p music. ofcourse, the untrained ear cannot pick up this difference, especially when the said music scores a near-zero in tonal clarity ( amplified music have very little tonal clarity). Only if you write it well. If most of your minimalist songs are utterly botched in its scale-changes & tonal rendition, it is cr@p. Period. Same with heavy-metal. Most heavy-metal musicians arnt very good musicians, period. Simply because most of them cannot sing in tune, most of them cannot play in tune and most of them cannot harmonicize their music with one another- Dreamtheatre is an exception, though. I have listened to metal performances so tightly performed and complicated, they seem superhuman. You have simply not heard these examples, I am forced to conclude, if you cite Dream Theatre as the sole 'exception'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 JAL.. one of my fav songs.. people classify it as "Rock".. but i dont think it is..... I dont think I have heard a guitar being played that good.. ever.. I find his guitar better than mark knopfler.. JAL, is that the Pakistani group by any remote chance? Some Pakistani bands play great music by the way and specially guitar based. By the way I would contest that anyone can play guitar better than Mark Knofler :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holysmoke Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 An instrument with a wider range, clarity & consistency of notes *IS* as categorically more melodious an instrument as the moon is smaller than the earth. This is not about opinion here. man, you still dont get it.. melody is a combination of notes.. just because something can give you 123495824359867 more notes, does not mean it is more melodious. I might like a different combination as to what you do. there are some notes that are more satisfying on a guitar than on a violin. it is all personal taste Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CC1981 Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 I have listened to metal performances so tightly performed and complicated, they seem superhuman.And if you learnt music, you'd realize that their superhuman exercise in finger-dextirity and complexity utterly butchers the basics of music- how to play in tune and how to change scales ! they are cr@p musicians for most part because they cannot play without error (and several errors per piece on average). Give me a Bartok or Chopin any day of the week over the hacks of heavy-metal. Atleast bartok and chopin wont make basic musical errors such as playing in tune, in scale and in harmony and their display of superhuman complexity and tightness doesnt sacrifice basic musical competency- because Bartok and Chopin didnt play for a mostly music-illiterate crowd, who cannot pick up people singing/playing out of tune and butchering scale changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holysmoke Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 JAL' date=' is that the Pakistani group by any remote chance? Some Pakistani bands play great music by the way and specially guitar based. By the way I would contest that anyone can play guitar better than Mark Knofler :P[/quote'] what does your last sentence mean.. are u trying to say that anyone can, or no-one can:haha: yep, its the pakistani band Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CC1981 Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 man, you still dont get it.. melody is a combination of notes.. just because something can give you 123495824359867 more notes, does not mean it is more melodious. I might like a different combination as to what you do. but it gives the combinations of notes in FAR MORE CLARITY AND CONTROL...making it a far superior instrument ! it is not the range of the violin that makes it more melodious (which is why i didnt just say the violin is more melodious- i said it has better range AND melody). What makes it more melodious is that its production of notes is far more consistent and gives the player far more control over the instrument Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 ^^ Oh shoot! Yeah noone can play guitar like Mark Knofler. Dire Straits remains one of my all-time favs. If its the Pakistani band then I am sure I have heard the music, they make some good stuff..modern rock kinda. But I thought I was arguing against Metal or Rap as they are not exactly my taste, JAL(or Junoon or similar troops) hardly make that kind of music, they are more Rock based than anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holysmoke Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 but it gives the combinations of notes in FAR MORE CLARITY AND CONTROL...making it a far superior instrument ! it is not the range of the violin that makes it more melodious (which is why i didnt just say the violin is more melodious- i said it has better range AND melody). What makes it more melodious is that its production of notes is far more consistent and gives the player far more control over the instrument tell me this. then why do people even use the guitar? why dont u use the violin for everything, if it has more notes, more clarity, more control, etc etc why isnt the guitar extinct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CC1981 Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 then why do people even use the guitar? 1.Far far easier to play and master the guitar than the violin. 2. Most music consumers are music illiterate- so the shortcommings of the guitar can be hidden from the most. 3. Violin's clarity and tonal consistency makes it a lead instrument of far higher capability than the guitar- ie, if i rock at the violin and you suck at the drums, you are far better off playing with a guitarist, since a violin will make you stick out like a sore thumb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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