Dravid's captaincy.

[Lurker]

i would be foolish to set expectations that depend on 10 other high paid' date=' partially aging, unprofessional folks. you try setting expecations and promise to deliver based on these folks and you WILL be sent packing, cause you WILL fail more often than not.[/quote'] If you can NOT lead a team of 10 players wonder how a leader leads a country of millions, or billions. Wonder how a CEO leads his company of thousand professionals. Heck wonder how the head of a family(man or woman) leads a family of 5-6 with kids. You are either a leader of a team or you are not. And part of leadership is to set goals and deliver. If you can NOT do that get the eff off that leadership kursi. If everyone is capable of delivering on his own why do you need a captain in the first place? Hope you understand it better now. xxx

[MundaPakistani]

1.I do think that India is lacking in planning. Hence the need for a coach.I just do not want to discuss Chappell anymore. 2.Too much confidence, especially more than the player deserves is not good. And it was not just a couple of fours. England had raced to 76 in just the first hour. There is no point in continuing with the struggling bowler if he is costing the team heavily and no need to think that he'd be capable for a field set for extremely accurate bowlers. 3. Because to expect that an Indian bowler to bowl 6 good deliveries in an over, in a batting friendly condition, is foolhardy. And the captain must limit the damage.

1- I don't think coach should do a lot of the planning...it's captain's job because he is the one who is going to implement it. Having said that a video analyst/coach can be used to highlight the weaknesses of the batsmen and i reckon Robin Singh or V Prasad can do that job. 2- True...i only mentioned the confidence factor because you said that Zaheer should have been immediately taken off. 3- With the new ball and conditions good for swing bowling you must have fielders in the attacking positions.. must be prepared to take a chance.

[yoda]

If you can NOT lead a team of 10 players wonder how a leader leads a country of millions' date=' or billions.[/quote'] Leads doing what? Doing his job. Not "delivering" for everyone. A country is only as good as it's people. Not as good as it's leader.

Wonder how a CEO leads his company of thousand professionals.

CEO's job is that of a visionary and may more in tune with the job of a coach than a captain of a team.

Heck wonder how the head of a family(man or woman) leads a family of 5-6 with kids.

No parent can guarantee and deliver a straight A student.

You are either a leader of a team or you are not. And part of leadership is to set goals and deliver.

Set goals and work towards delivering it in a professional way. No one can guarantee anything in sports.

[Lurker]

CEO's job is that of a visionary and may more in tune with the job of a coach than a captain of a team.

CEO's job is that of visionary? Sometimes it is, other times it is not. The visionary for Infosys remains Nayaranmurthy who is not the CEO. By the way since you are defending the skipper with "this aint his job" and so on, do tell us what do you think is the captain's job? Let me hear your thoughts before I criticize them

No parent can guarantee and deliver a straight A student.

Deliver as in producing a child? Man this discussions gets weird by the minute. Now where did the grade A student come from? My logic was the head of the family lays out expectations and delivers on it. Expectations like by 2010 we shall have our own house, this year we shall get a bike for our son if he passes Engineering, we want to have a summer vacation in Bombay next year. Have you not heard/seen of such goals set in a family?

Set goals and work towards delivering it in a professional way. No one can guarantee anything in sports.

So now I suppose you are arguing that sports and professionalism are not one and the same! Doesnt matter all the money, media, gyzmos(what was your argument about technology again?) Let me ask you a simple question. Whats the whole bl00dy point of spending billions of dollars, and trillions of fans time, over something where, in your own words, "nothing is guaranteed"? xxx

[yoda]

Whats the whole bl00dy point of spending billions of dollars, and trillions of fans time, over something where, in your own words, "nothing is guaranteed"?

to enjoy the special moments (a 4, a 6, a cover drive, a straight drive, a win) which may or may not happen. no captain, shirt waving or not, aggressive or not can "set and deliver results". changing dravid for another xyz may or may or not make any difference. a cricket team is only as good as the players. captains make a difference IMO only in field settings, bowling changes and the playing XI selection. makes sense to criticize a captain when he makes stupid on-field moves.

[gator]

to enjoy the special moments (a 4' date=' a 6, a cover drive, a straight drive, a win) which may or may not happen. no captain, shirt waving or not, aggressive or not can "set and deliver results". changing dravid for another xyz may or may or not make any difference. a cricket team is only as good as the players. captains make a difference IMO only in field settings, bowling changes and the playing XI selection. makes sense to criticize a captain when he makes stupid on-field moves.[/quote'] seems like u dont believe in leadership at all.... ur basis is, we dont need a captain... in tht case, we are talking about 2 different sports here....

[Lurker]

to enjoy the special moments (a 4' date=' a 6, a cover drive, a straight drive, a win) which may or may not happen. no captain, shirt waving or not, aggressive or not can "set and deliver results". changing dravid for another xyz may or may or not make any difference. a cricket team is only as good as the players. captains make a difference IMO only in field settings, bowling changes and the playing XI selection. makes sense to criticize a captain when he makes stupid on-field moves.[/quote'] Hopefully you would not take it the wrong way Yoda but either you are arguing just for the heck of it or you are a little confused(apologies beforehand). You are quick to suggest Technology in a different thread? Why? Because it takes away the bias/uncertainty/mistakes etc and "improves" results. Then you come to this thread and start talking all about a cover drive a straight drive and all the things that most would consider "artsy". So don't get offended if I see a conflict in your situation. That said I have two others things to say to you. Point 1 you have not mentioned what YOU think is Dravid's role. Point 2 is that I am not suggesting Dravid comes out with a "We will win World Cup in 2010" statement. I am not expecting India to win 95% of International Games. No high expectations like that. All I am expecting is India to be a strong force, win every 2 games out of 3 it plays, win outside India and be counted amongst the world leading teams. Tell me why those expectations can not be matched. xxx

[yoda]

You are quick to suggest Technology in a different thread? Why? Because it takes away the bias/uncertainty/mistakes etc and "improves" results. Then you come to this thread and start talking all about a cover drive a straight drive and all the things that most would consider "artsy". So don't get offended if I see a conflict in your situation.

No conflict. You have ignored the last word in that list "win". A win is what we all want. But a 4 is all we might get.

Point 1 you have not mentioned what YOU think is Dravid's role.

Selecting the playing XI, handle bowling changes/field-placements, minor on-field encouragement of bowlers and fielders, strategize a game plan with the coach and other senior team members.

Point 2 is that I am not suggesting Dravid comes out with a "We will win World Cup in 2010" statement. I am not expecting India to win 95% of International Games. No high expectations like that. All I am expecting is India to be a strong force, win every 2 games out of 3 it plays, win outside India and be counted amongst the world leading teams. Tell me why those expectations can not be matched.

Those expectations can't be matched cause we don't have the right team. We have a bunch of aging stars who produce once in a blue moon. And our bowling is unpredictable. No captain can be "expected" to produce what you are looking for. Face it, we have a mediocre team. I don't think a brash in-your-face captain can produce any different results.

[Predator_05]

Those expectations can't be matched cause we don't have the right team. We have a bunch of aging stars who produce once in a blue moon. And our bowling is unpredictable. No captain can be "expected" to produce what you are looking for. Face it' date=' we have a mediocre team. I don't think a brash in-your-face captain can produce any different results.[/quote'] Spot on. I don't think captaincy is the sole problem. A captain can only be as good as his team-mates allow him to be. People here talk of Ganguly as some kind of bold, inspirational leader who never minced words (which is true, to some extent) but the same people don't seem to remember what happened to India in his final year. '04/05 was one of the worst seasons for Indian cricket in living memory - the team were knocked out in the first round of the ICCT, lost their invincibility at home as the Aussies conquered the final frontier, their only non-minnow ODI win during the year was a dead rubber against England, they lost 4 straight matches to Pakistan and then embarrassingly drew a test series at home against their weakest ever Test team. Ganguly spent the entire year coughing up false promises and eventually ran out of steam. Horrible, horrible season. It was more or less the same team India have right now - leaving aside new bowlers like Sreesanth and RPS. When the players are unprofessional and incapable of performing consistently, it doesn't really make a difference who the captain is. This is why Ganguly and Dravid both have similar win % in both forms of the game. The team is the main problem, their "leadership skills" (or lack thereof) don't have a whole lot to with it. If Dravid is a politically correct wimp, Ganguly was a very average tactician who couldn't even lead by example. Niether would be good enough as captain, at least for India's current group of players

[gator]

It was more or less the same team India have right now - leaving aside new bowlers like Sreesanth and RPS. When the players are unprofessional and incapable of performing consistently, it doesn't really make a difference who the captain is. This is why Ganguly and Dravid both have similar win % in both forms of the game. The team is the main problem, their "leadership skill" don't have a whole lot to with it. If Dravid is a politically correct wimp, Ganguly was a very average tactician who couldn't even lead by example. Niether would be good enough as captain, at least for the group of players India have today.

the thread is not about bringing Saurav back as captain..... the thread is about Dravid's uninspring, insipid, poosy-like captaincy, damaging the team morale at the expense of being liked by english media.... we dont need a captain with servile attitude...

[yoda]

seems like u dont believe in leadership at all.... ur basis is' date=' we dont need a captain... in tht case, we are talking about 2 different sports here....[/quote'] leadership as in gets to pick his crew, gets to decide who will do what (bowling changes, field settings, toss decision, etc) - YES leadership as in shirt-waving, humiliating a team member, taking BCCI issues to the public, ... (like lurker suggested) - NO

[Predator_05]

the thread is not about bringing Saurav back as captain.....

...but you give the impression that you want a "Saurav-like" captain ?

[yoda]

the thread is not about bringing Saurav back as captain..... the thread is about Dravid's uninspring' date=' insipid, poosy-like captaincy, damaging the team morale at the expense of being liked by english media.... we dont need a captain with servile attitude...[/quote'] absurd statement. the guy told what he felt like - that we were cornered and escaped (from a jail). probably poor choice of words, but nothing to indicate anything as outlandish as servile attitude and poosy-like, trying to impress the english media, yada yada yada.

[gator]

absurd statement. the guy told what he felt like - that we were cornered and escaped (from a jail). probably poor choice of words' date=' but nothing to indicate anything as outlandish as servile attitude and poosy-like, trying to impress the english media, yada yada yada.[/quote'] do u recall the match before bangledesh in the WC.... he jus stopped short of peeing in his pants... thanks to him, all the batters turned up frozen cos it was prolly drilled into them tht they are up against the most dangerous outfit in the world...

[gator]

...but you give the impression that you want a "Saurav-like" captain ?

i have said this multiple times... we need a captain with the attitude of Saurav/Imran/Ranatunga.... they had different weaknesses, for sure... Sourav would prolly rank the least of the 3... but i know, they got their men to perform a notch above their comfort level through sheer motivation....

[gator]

leadership as in gets to pick his crew, gets to decide who will do what (bowling changes, field settings, toss decision, etc) - YES

in other words, if u ran a company.... ur role should be confined to hiring, deciding what role they are going to play and thts it... let me ask u this.... do u get bonuses, promotions, other incentives at work??? why have these incentives, right??? u r paid to do ur job and tht alone should be enuf motivation...

[Dhondy]

Gator, you will be eating some serious crow by the end of this series, believe me, mate. You've gone way beyond the pale, reading too much into an innocent sentence, and spouting some utter nonsense about a great man. You obviously admire the sort of folks who can talk the talk but can't walk the walk. There's nothing more to say on this topic. Your intransigence has been shocking, banal and utterly off putting. I don't reckon you know your cricket at all.

[Predator_05]

i have said this multiple times... we need a captain with the attitude of Saurav/Imran/Ranatunga.... they had different weaknesses' date=' for sure... Sourav would prolly rank the least of the 3... but i know, they got their men to perform a notch above their comfort level through sheer motivation....[/quote'] What happened to the "sheer motivation" in that final year ?

[Lurker]

No conflict. You have ignored the last word in that list "win". A win is what we all want. But a 4 is all we might get.

Hmm okay. I dont get that argument then. I mean if watching a game for a classy 4, and not a win, was the barometer then VVS would lead India every day and not RD or Ganguly or whatever.

Selecting the playing XI, handle bowling changes/field-placements, minor on-field encouragement of bowlers and fielders, strategize a game plan with the coach and other senior team members.

Okay now we are talking. Selecting playing XI. This automatically means it is Dravid's responsibility when the team does good or bad. I mean you got the team you wanted, so who else but you to take the plaudits when things are on the up and a kick in the butt when things are on the downer. Handling bowler changes, strategize etc are all in the end only as good as the result. What is the point of having the best strategy when in the end you are saved by Rains?

Those expectations can't be matched cause we don't have the right team. We have a bunch of aging stars who produce once in a blue moon. And our bowling is unpredictable. No captain can be "expected" to produce what you are looking for. Face it, we have a mediocre team. I don't think a brash in-your-face captain can produce any different results.

Finally some fair arguments. Aging stars, agreed kick them out. Unpredicatble bowling, yes and no. I mean we are no world beaters but our bowling seems to let us down lot less than batsman. I mean all said our bowlers did well in South Africa, West Indies, Pakistan, and thus far in England too. Coming to batting this team(Sachin, RD, SG, VVS) is as good as India is ever going to get. So if this doesnt work dunno what will. Bottomline you make maximum out of your resources. Which is why Stephen Fleming is a great captain. Which is why Ganguly is rated ahead of RD, which is why Ranatunga is widely celebrated in Sri Lanka while Dravid gets criticized by Indian fans. xxx

[gator]

What happened to the "sheer motivation" in that final year ?

his performance as both captain and player dropped, hence i support him being kicked out of the team as well as the position of captaincy ...