Crookbond Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 More accessible than quality English education. Students in urban areas are naturally much more exposed to English language skills from childhood onwards, which again contributes to the disparity. There is a disparity even between big and small towns. Most importantly, extra-ordinary English skills are not at all crucial to success in undergraduate engineering, whereas Math-Physics-Chemistry skills are important. The IITs even offer the JEE in Hindi. Agree - Extra ordinary skills aren't required. Here's something for you to think about - http://dsanghi.blogspot.in/2011/08/teaching-500-students-part-1.html About 50 students said that they would like to be tutored in Hindi. And what came to me as a shock, some students do not follow even written English. And this caused a debate in the department. I decided that I will request a graduate student to provide extra help to those who are weak in English. So he holds a session on Sunday for an hour in which he speaks in Hindi. I also encourage students to come to my office and ask me questions in Hindi. Am I doing the right thing. Some faculty members don't think so. They point out that English is the official language of instruction at IITs, and therefore, it is the responsibility of the student to make sure that s/he learns sufficient English prior to coming to IIT Kanpur. By agreeing to offer help in Hindi, I am discouraging them from learning English. Second, it will increase expectation of students that in other courses too, the faculty would explain in Hindi, and a majority of faculty members are not from Hindi belt. So that would cause problems. Third, this is discriminatory with respect to non-Hindi speaking students who are also poor in English. Next step. Do one thing - Drop a mail to Dheeraj asking the solution on this. Speak to other IIT faculty about this problem. Also, enlighten us what steps are being taken to help these students. This is exactly the hypocritical culture followed at the IITs. Apna Kaam Chalta toh Desh Bhaad mein banta. Are there alumni strikes, court threats, students fighting on Internet forums? NO - Why? Because this doesn't effect me. The hue & cry over the entrance is - because this effects me. That's where the credibility is lost. And from where do you come to the conclusion that Physics & Chemistry are "more" accessible? Even if they are "more" accessible are they sufficiently enough accessible? Point me out to some data man else it's your word against mine.
Crookbond Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 Didnt you mention SAT as a model for entrance exam? So, tomorrow if I say Tendulkar is a model for younger generation players do I mean all the new players should copy Tendulkar's strokes, stance, helmet and bat sponsor stickers too? Common man - stop throwing red herrings.
Crookbond Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 Let me just add that in rural India and small towns' date=' many schools do not even teach English till primary school. To expect students from these regions to compete in an English test for entrance for undergraduate engineering is neither fair nor viable.[/quote'] Same holds true for Physics & Chemistry too. Please visit the rural areas and towns to understand the level of Physics & Chemistry they are teaching plus the quality. But, then you say the entrance test is completely unbiased. You have drawn an imaginary line where YOU feel you're comfortable. The ground realities are very different my friend.
seedhi Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 Agree - Extra ordinary skills aren't required. Here's something for you to think about - http://dsanghi.blogspot.in/2011/08/teaching-500-students-part-1.html Now - tell me one thing, what happens to these students? What has the IIT's done? This is exactly the hypocritical culture followed at the IITs. Apna Kaam Chalta toh Desh Bhaad mein banta. Are there alumni strikes, court threats, students fighting on Internet forums? NO - Why? Because this doesn't effect me. The hue & cry over the entrance is - because this effects me. That's where the credibility is lost.I agree this is a sad situation, but how is this relevant to the entrance exam. This should be handled better by the IITs AFTER admission. What this actually illustrates is that our high school education system is broken, especially in English education: if a student is able to pass his 12th board exams in English then he/she should be able to follow written English at the very least.
Crookbond Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 I agree this is a sad situation, but how is this relevant to the entrance exam. This should be handled better by the IITs AFTER admission. What this actually illustrates is that our high school education system is broken, especially in English education: if a student is able to pass his 12th board exams in English then he/she should be able to follow written English at the very least. I edited my post. It's relevant in the sense that IIT's "make noise" for entrance exams but hardly ever even solve problems locally. If you want your voices to be heard, stop crying wolf and work hard.
seedhi Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 Same holds true for Physics & Chemistry too. Please visit the rural areas and towns to understand the level of Physics & Chemistry they are teaching plus the quality.Not at the same level as English. But if there is a common entrance test for all engineering streams then Math-Physics-Chemistry is the natural choice for an entrance test. But, then you say the entrance test is completely unbiased. You have drawn an imaginary line where YOU feel you're comfortable. The ground realities are very different my friend.I have never said that the exam is completely unbiased, only that it is possibly the fairest between haves/have-nots while still being a competitive test of skills most relevant in Engineering i.e. Math-Physics-Chemistry.
seedhi Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 I edited my post. It's relevant in the sense that IIT's "make noise" for entrance exams but hardly ever even solve problems locally. If you want your voices to be heard' date=' stop crying wolf and work hard.[/quote']This is not about IITs making noise, it is simply about what entrance format is most suitable.
Crookbond Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 Here's an interesting conversation with one of the "legend" professors from IIT Delhi (CS department - I won't name him for privacy reasons). Professor - "These days we don't students of HQ. Gone were those days, during my time the students were brilliant." Me - "Prof. X I don't sound to be rude but can you give some basic statistics on how many take the JEE exam and how many students get admitted?" Professor - "Well this year (I guess 2008) the lowest rank was around AIR 300 in the CS department and x number of students took the exam." Me - "So if my math is correct, it makes me 0.5% right?" Professor - "Yes, your point?" Me - "So, we are complaining about not getting top 0.1% students here? I haven't heard such a pessimistic statement in a long time" Professor - No reply After the Q&A, he comes to me and tells me I shouldn't ask such a question in public. I replied - If you don't want people to ask the question, don't raise up the point or at least don't have the Q&A. Now, I am not generalizing but there are a few great profs in IIT (I can only talk about CS) like Dheeraj, Sanjeev Agrawal, Pankaj Jalote etc. but apart from these there are idiots too.
Crookbond Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 Not at the same level as English. But if there is a common entrance test for all engineering streams then Math-Physics-Chemistry is the natural choice for an entrance test. I have never said that the exam is completely unbiased, only that it is possibly the fairest between haves/have-nots while still being a competitive test of skills most relevant in Engineering i.e. Math-Physics-Chemistry. Here's how you argue - You either prove anything theoretically or empirically. In this case, you're going to do the latter and unless you don't come up with numbers - it's my word against yours.
Crookbond Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 This is not about IITs making noise' date=' it is simply about what entrance format is most suitable.[/quote'] Why only the "noise" for entrance tests? What about other more pertinent issues - Change of curriculum, Performance based faculty pay, Publish only in well known research conferences etc.
seedhi Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 Here's how you argue - You either prove anything theoretically or empirically. In this case' date=' you're going to do the latter and unless you don't come up with numbers - it's my word against yours.[/quote']Oh come on .. The fact is that English is not taught in most rural schools up to the primary level, whereas the rich, urban areas focus heavily on English.
seedhi Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 Here's an interesting conversation with one of the "legend" professors from IIT Delhi (CS department - I won't name him for privacy reasons). Professor - "These days we don't students of HQ. Gone were those days, during my time the students were brilliant." Me - "Prof. X I don't sound to be rude but can you give some basic statistics on how many take the JEE exam and how many students get admitted?" Professor - "Well this year (I guess 2008) the lowest rank was around AIR 300 in the CS department and x number of students took the exam." Me - "So if my math is correct, it makes me 0.5% right?" Professor - "Yes, your point?" Me - "So, we are complaining about not getting top 0.1% students here? I haven't heard such a pessimistic statement in a long time" Professor - No reply After the Q&A, he comes to me and tells me I shouldn't ask such a question in public. I replied - If you don't want people to ask the question, don't raise up the point or at least don't have the Q&A. Now, I am not generalizing but there are a few great profs in IIT (I can only talk about CS) like Dheeraj, Sanjeev Agrawal, Pankaj Jalote etc. but apart from these there are idiots too.When I was there, I also used to hear these things, although in my time the lowest AIR into IIT-D CS was before 90, it closed before the other CS depts.
Crookbond Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 ^ Yeh kaunsa time hai? Only IIT B I assume can boast of that fact.
Crookbond Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 Issue of language is important. An anecdote : I still remember in the JEE I took, there was chemistry question which used language something on the lines of "After blah blah, the reaction was arrested". Now it was obvious to me it meant the reaction stopped, but more than one of the people I met at the exam center were completely stumped by the word 'arrested' in the context of a chemical reaction, and interpreted it to mean something different than the intended meaning. PK - What if the guy actually knew 'arrested' but not in English? Would you agree we may have lost a genuine candidate just because of language?
seedhi Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 ^ Yeh kaunsa time hai? Only IIT B I assume can boast of that fact.More than a decade ago.
Crookbond Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 More than a decade ago. Well, I am pretty sure that IITB would've been higher even then. 90 looks a little bit implausible to me personally at least.
seedhi Posted June 30, 2012 Posted June 30, 2012 Well' date=' I am pretty sure that IITB would've been higher even then. 90 looks a little bit implausible to me personally at least.[/quote']Well, I know for sure. It was a time when the CSE Dept used to be in the 6th block. The number seats also have increased since then.
ganeshran Posted July 1, 2012 Posted July 1, 2012 I am not suggesting to use English. I will point out the issue' date=' just be with me for a moment.[/quote'] Are you suggesting language should be one of the subjects in the JEE? If yes, then which one?
Crookbond Posted July 1, 2012 Posted July 1, 2012 Are you suggesting language should be one of the subjects in the JEE? If yes' date=' then which one?[/quote'] NO - I am not suggesting language as a test for the JEE. I am just putting forth the hypocritical attitude of the IITs. [1] Entrance Test - Holy Grail [2] Curriculum, Research, Overall growth - Apna Kaam Banta, toh bhaad mein jaaye junta The fixation on Physics and Chemistry is also one such 'cult' preservation. There's zero incentive or encouragement for "change" in the IITs. It trudges along at it's own snail pace.
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