Indo-Israel :: A Strategic Relationship

[sandtest]

An article about Indo-Israel relationship.....interesting thing is that PV NarsimhaRao played positive role in this...I appreciate PVN here. Once again exposes ideology obssessed Indian leftists. http://www.dailypioneer.com/columnist1.asp?main_variable=Columnist&file_name=kanchan%2Fkanchan114%2Etxt&writer=kanchan India will remember PV Narasimha Rao, even if the Congress and those of its leaders who flourished during his years as Prime Minister do not, as the man who freed this country from the shackles of its much-vaunted Nehruvian legacy, which may have ensured employment for some individuals and funds for certain institutions but isolated the nation from a rapidly globalising world. Narasimha Rao not only liberalised India's state-controlled economic regime and thus helped unleash the amazing potential of our entrepreneurs, but also turned India's foreign policy vis-à-vis West Asia on its head by establishing diplomatic relations with Israel, much to the horror of old-timers in the Foreign Office and his party, who were still living in the Nehru-Nasser-Tito era and believed our passports should continue to mention "Valid for all countries except Israel" in bold print on the first page to demonstrate India's 'unflinching commitment' to Palestine. While credit for that path-breaking decision must go to Narasimha Rao, a little-known fact is the role played by Yasser Arafat in India establishing full diplomatic relations with Israel. He had stopped over in Delhi in 1992 and, if Race Course Road lore is to be believed, had driven to the Prime Minister's residence late in the night straight from the airport. After haranguing an apparently impassive Narasimha Rao about the need for India to play a more pro-active role in liberating the 'occupied territories', he took a break to sip his shai. At this point Narasimha Rao is believed to have opened his eyes, looked at the PLO Chairman, and asked in a deadpan voice, "And how exactly can we do this?" Arafat is said to have responded without batting his eyelids, "By establishing diplomatic relations with Israel." He then went on to reason that India could bear upon Israel to be more reasonable in its dealings with the PLO than Egypt, Jordan. And this would be possible only if India were to establish diplomatic relations with Israel. "So shall it be," Narasimha Rao replied before seeing his late night guest out. It is possible that official records tell a different version of what led to the establishment of full diplomatic relations with Israel. But this much is true that Yasser Arafat did meet Narasimha Rao late in the night, and that India established full diplomatic relations with Israel soon after. Neither of the two men is alive to give us the real version; even if either had been around, we would probably have never got to know the facts. Arabs, deeply upset over India's action claimed - as they still do - that Narasimha Rao had given in to American pressure. Palestinians not well disposed towards Arafat have told me, in Arab street conspiratorial tone, that the PLO Chairman was acting at the behest of both the Americans and the Israelis. Conspiracy theorists would no doubt support such suggestions of high intrigue, but in all probability Arafat, a wily desert fox who met his match in Ariel Sharon (remember Mitla Pass?) was acting on his own in the genuine belief that New Delhi, being a non-player in West Asia politics, could influence opinion in Tel Aviv by leveraging what he had the far sight to envisage would be a strategic relationship between India and Israel. All this and more must necessarily remain in the realm of speculation. In any case, Palestine as invented by Arafat is unlikely to take shape in our lifetime, especially now that Gaza Strip has broken off from West Bank and become 'Hamastan'. What can be said with certitude is that India-Israel relations have blossomed in these 15 years to a level that could not have been imagined when Narasimha Rao ended India's absurd policy of denying the existence of the Jewish state. Apart from high technology defence deals, India has also benefited from Israeli investments in construction and pharmaceuticals. Ironically, bulk of this investment has flown to Marxist-ruled West Bengal - $ 500 million in the last three years - which is also the beneficiary of three state-of-the-art health centres set up with Israeli know-how. Of course, that has not stopped either the CPI(M) from declaring support for Hamas and its murderous ways or Mr Sitaram Yechury from penning ill-informed diatribes that would be deemed anti-Semitic in most civilised countries. Mr David Danieli, who has just completed his tenure as Israel's Ambassador to India and worked with both the NDA and the UPA Governments with their differing perspectives on West Asia politics, recently told me how he perceives relations between the two countries as "sound and healthy". That's much more than can be said about our relations with our immediate neighbours. Asked if there has been a shift in emphasis with the Left-backed UPA Government in power, Mr Danieli said, "Each Government has its own nuances. The idea is to look beyond and assess the scope of expanding our ties, which remain solid. After all, there's consensus and continuity on foreign policy (in India)." As for Israel, 15 years after the establishment of diplomatic relations, "We regard relations with India as most valuable," Mr Danieli said, adding, "It's a friendly Government, a friendly nation. We have done quite well in 15 years and our bilateral relations have a nice growth potential in every field." The Ambassador, who moves on to an important assignment in Tel Aviv, is right when he says that there are "no impediments, no obstacles, no balancing... the sky is the limit". From our perspective, it is an important relationship for three reasons. First, Israel has been a reliable source of defence supplies and crucial technology - Barak is being co-produced, the SAM project is a big ticket programme - apart from actively collaborating with us on key counter-terrorism issues. The Joint Working Group on terrorism is working on real time information exchange, cyber terrorism and money laundering. Second, it offers us an important platform in West Asian affairs without becoming a direct, interested player; this access is any day preferable to trying to sneak in through the Arab League or OIC observer status route. Third, Indo-Israeli economic cooperation, especially in the pharmaceutical sector, could lead to a free trade agreement that would be a boon for our investors. Sun Pharma has invested $480 million in Israel's Taro and is not regretting it; others are likely to follow suit. As for Israel, Mr Danieli points out, there is hardly a family in that country which is not touched by India. "A large number of Israelis visit India every year. And they return with good memories." In sharp contrast, thanks to an indifferent media, Israel remains a foggy and distant idea in India. Mr Danieli regrets this, and he has reason to. After all, if an Israeli academician of Tel Aviv University can figure among the 20 scholars of Hindi from across the world who were recently honoured in New York, there is no reason why there should be no Indian scholars of Hebrew or Jewish studies. If there's one regret that Mr Danieli has, it's his futile effort to set up the first ever Chair for Jewish/ Hebrew studies in an Indian university. He tried his best but could not convince those who control our institutions of higher education that there is a need for encouraging academic interest in an ancient tradition and culture. That's not surprising, given the fact that our universities are controlled by card-carrying Leftists who are caught in a time warp and believe history can be rewritten to meet the demands of a discredited ideology....:sad_smile: http://www.dailypioneer.com/columnist1.asp?main_variable=Columnist&file_name=kanchan%2Fkanchan114%2Etxt&writer=kanchan

[CC1981]

That's not surprising, given the fact that our universities are controlled by card-carrying Leftists who are caught in a time warp and believe history can be rewritten to meet the demands of a discredited ideology

Not that i disagree with you but i find the hinduvta idjits to be far bigger and inflamatory offenders to historical revisionism and twisting it to a hindu superiorist ideology.

[sandtest]

Not that i disagree with you but i find the hinduvta idjits to be far bigger and inflamatory offenders to historical revisionism and twisting it to a hindu superiorist ideology.

Ace, read the link......it's not my view...but the authors. I wonder why the hell you drag anything which ridicules Hindus in each and every thread.

[Gaurav]

Not that i disagree with you but i find the hinduvta idjits to be far bigger and inflamatory offenders to historical revisionism and twisting it to a hindu superiorist ideology.

If you were truly neutral you would say that they were as bad as each other :D

[CC1981]

Ace, read the link......it's not my view...but the authors.

I didn't say it was your view...you presented someone's views- i presented mine. Simple as that.

[CC1981]

If you were truly neutral you would say that they were as bad as each other :D

Err why ? Neutrality does not mean equal assignment/division of everything, especially in the negetives column on various issues. Neutrality simply means objective analysis, thats all. Hinduvta historical revisionism and crap is far more ridiculous than commie revisionism. Though in Israel's case, hinduvtas are blatantly and utterly misleading & potraying an utterly incorrect picture- their objective is to find an ally in Israel to buddy up, since both Hinduvta and Israel specialize in anti-Islamic action ( whether they have a right to or not and whether their response is proportionate is for another matter). Hinduvta so far has mostly been words and disorganised little barbarity here and there, Israel in much much worse fashion. And Hinduvta clearly edits out Israel's stunning brutality record towards Palestinians neatly. You have Hinduvta elements like Dada_rocks go as far as saying Israeli President Menachim Begin in his younger days was not a terrorist, despite Menachim Begin categorically taking responsibility for (and most importantly, not under coercsion either) blowing up a Hotel and killing innocent British,israeli and palestinian civillians in the hotel. IMO, I have no problem with India-Israel military partnerships - they do have some interesting defensive weapons that India could benifit a lot from but strategic relationship is simply retarded. Its like you are in need of a bazooka, bazookas are illegal, so you go find one from a shady weapons smuggler. But its pretty retarded and taking it one step too far when you invite the smuggler over for a weekend's retreat to your village house. Same case with India-Israel IMO. Keep them at an arm's distance but don't ignore them alltogether either. if Israel and India were people, they'd make good friends of the type who run into each other once or twice a year when one friend is in town.

[Lurker]

An article about Indo-Israel relationship.....interesting thing is that PV NarsimhaRao played positive role in this...I appreciate PVN here. Once again exposes ideology obssessed Indian leftists.

An article that seems to have been written by a lobbyist much more than anything else. Here are a few things the author shall do very well to remember. 1) What is the whole point of dragging Nehru and Nehruvian model of economic in an Indo-Israel relationship article? The author somehow seems to blame Nehru for the fact that India did not recognize Israel till 1992. The author conviniently forgets the simple fact that most countries around the world recognized Israel around this time! Soviet Union recognized Israel in 1991. China recognized Israel in 1992 India recognized Israel in 1992. Pray do tell me how Nehru is remotely responsible for this whole political shenaighan here? The poor chap had passed away a good 28 years before. Then again it is a modern Indian habit to dump everything on Nehru and try to show our generation as an enlightened one that really took India to the next more dominant stage. 2) The Indo-Israeli trade is pretty darn little. If I am not mistaken Israel and India are not in top 10 investors for each country. The bilateral trade is of the order of 1.5 billion USD or therabouts. No small amount but hardly an earth shattering amount as well. A top 3 Indian IT company generates more revenue than 1.5 billion USD these days. And even of that 1.5 billion USD a large part of the trade would be based on one product only - diamonds. I would bet that that diamond trade occupies more than half of the trade between the two countries. The connection between Surat-Jerusalem-Antwerp far exceeds the connection between New Delhi and Jerusalem. My point being accept the bilateral trade for what it is and stop making big claims about defence ties. Indo-Israel defence ties while important form hardly anything of note in the trade between two countries. 3) Lastly the shot at leftist controlled Universities. Am I the only one who thinks not many Indians would take up Jew/Hebrew studies? I mean come on we are a country that has 20 odd nationaly recognized language and most of us know hardly more than a couple! Heck most of us fall over each other to defend English over Hindi or Bengali say. My younger sister who passed out from a British University had friends come and stay at our home in Gaya while they researched on Pali/Prakrit language. And even though Gaya boasts of Buddhist history they(her friends) could not find any Professors/teachers to help them out though they did find many valuable manuscripts. xxxx

[kumble_rocks]

Good Post Lurker ! Can't see how any poster can dispute your points 1 through 3.

[Guest dada_rocks]

(1) Very few countries in russian block didn't recognize israel.... Nehru is criticised for being part of that block again Nehru might not have option on this issue given russian dependence. Sthgs u need to do in foreign affairs matetr to survive and I guess this one falls in that category.. (2) PVN had no option but to recognize oisrael yes when u need WB doles u play by their rules simple.. In fact he tried to be smart alec by postponing the formal declaration fo recognition while going ahead with loan finalization but got big middle finger from israelli lobby so had to declare it before taking off for the finalization of the deal. It falls into same category as Manmohan singh the socalled genius thought about liberalization. case of making vortues out of necessity. (3) Yes many people may not like but israel-india defence ties is not only significant but lifeline of india defence setup these days and is bound to get further anchored ... (4) Yes universities particualry big names in field of humanity is under leftist control and they do churn $hit dwelling on leftism.... (5) ponga pandit well leave him alone with his incoherent barb..

[Guest dada_rocks]

Err why ? Neutrality does not mean equal assignment/division of everything, especially in the negetives column on various issues. Neutrality simply means objective analysis, thats all. Hinduvta historical revisionism and crap is far more ridiculous than commie revisionism. Though in Israel's case, hinduvtas are blatantly and utterly misleading & potraying an utterly incorrect picture- their objective is to find an ally in Israel to buddy up, since both Hinduvta and Israel specialize in anti-Islamic action ( whether they have a right to or not and whether their response is proportionate is for another matter). Hinduvta so far has mostly been words and disorganised little barbarity here and there, Israel in much much worse fashion. And Hinduvta clearly edits out Israel's stunning brutality record towards Palestinians neatly. You have Hinduvta elements like Dada_rocks go as far as saying Israeli President Menachim Begin in his younger days was not a terrorist, despite Menachim Begin categorically taking responsibility for (and most importantly, not under coercsion either) blowing up a Hotel and killing innocent British,israeli and palestinian civillians in the hotel. IMO, I have no problem with India-Israel military partnerships - they do have some interesting defensive weapons that India could benifit a lot from but strategic relationship is simply retarded. Its like you are in need of a bazooka, bazookas are illegal, so you go find one from a shady weapons smuggler. But its pretty retarded and taking it one step too far when you invite the smuggler over for a weekend's retreat to your village house. Same case with India-Israel IMO. Keep them at an arm's distance but don't ignore them alltogether either. if Israel and India were people, they'd make good friends of the type who run into each other once or twice a year when one friend is in town.

ponga is at losse again:hysterical: One good thing though pongas like this have no say in indian defence deals.. they can keep crying to their hearts content nothing is going to change

[gator]

Soviet Union recognized Israel in 1991. China recognized Israel in 1992 India recognized Israel in 1992.

Lurks..... thts exactly what happened.... following the commies.....

[Lurker]

Lurks..... thts exactly what happened.... following the commies.....

Thats looking at the issue very simplistically Gator. It is quite fair to say that bulk of countries(excluding NATO group) had little or no diplomatic relationship with Israel until late 80s to early 90s. Warsaw Pact countries and China are two prime examples. In case of Warsaw pact countries(essentially USSR influenced) the reasoning was to keep Middle Eastern countries in good books. Same with China. Even today you will find many of these Middle Eastern countries having senior officers/diplomats who are under Russian influence. India's reasoning was completely different. India's opposition of Israel sprung principally from the support of Palestine as a nation. Most old timers who have some memories of 80s will remember how PLO leader Yasser Arafat was often the Chief Guest at 15th August/26 January functions in India. He was talkd of as "Philistine ke neta/rashtrapati Yasser Arafat". Indian boycott of Israel was similar to India's boycott of South Africa - little or no relation with a country that discriminates. In South Africa it was aparthied, in Israel it was forcible capture of Palestine area and trying to raise settlements there. Indeed the two countries(Israel and South Africa) are reasons why India reached the finals of Davis Cup tennis twice and refused to play them. Point being Indian ideological opposition for Israel was different from Communist opposition as you mentioned. And here is a point in International polity that we would all do well to realize. The reason why countries like India ended up supporting Israel was because Islamic terrorism hit home(read from Kashmir to Mumbai). Indeed this is the question that Muslims around the world need to ask themselves - How has terrorism helped their cause when all it has done is made countries like Israel(or USA after 911) get International sympathy?? My thinking is that had Islamic terrorism not affected India as much as it did post 1985, India would still be anti-Israel. The reason that has brought us close is the same reason that was employed centuries ago by Mauryan rulers - Enemy of an enemy is friend. xxx

[Guest dada_rocks]

More or less all of the non-islamic and non-USSR block countries accepted Isarel within two years of its creation, a cursory look at who voted against an favour of UN resolution shaping state of Israel would make it pretty obvious. http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_independence_recognition_who.php In the fall of 1948, Israel had applied for membership in the United Nations but failed to win the necessary majority in the Security Council. In February 1949, Israel renewed its application for membership in the United Nations. On March 4, 1949, the Security Council recommended to the General Assembly that it be admitted. On May 11, Israel was admitted, to become the 59th member. Between January 1, 1949 and May 11. 1949, Israel was recognised by 32 States, in addition to the 20 that had accorded it recognition prior to December 31, 1948. Today Israel has full diplomatic relations with most countries of the world, except portions of the Islamic/Arab block that continue to believe that Israel can somehow be eliminated. So 52 out of 59 states had accorded due recognition to Israel within two years of its creation and you are claiming most of the countries beyond NATO didn't recognise Israel, well what can one say. Yes our lack of effort for want of fund or otherwise to start this or that langauge chair can't be thrown as some kind of alibi against thwarting someone else's effort to start a hewbrew/jewish studies chair. If anything this would have meant little more money pumped to the University budget from Israeli establishment in addition to job creation and not to mention enrichment of our understanding of that part of the world.

[sandtest]

Instead of getting carried away by usual spin thrown by leftists as few recognized Israel etc. etc., Indians need to think about importance of our partnership with Israel which ONLY benefits INDIA, in return all we need to do is just say some kind words in UN. At present ALL important future defense projects in India, are having Israeli assistance in some ways, even when Unkil is still sceptical about our rising military status (though not vocal now) (1) Barak naval defense missile (2) Radars and Avionics-- custom made for India by Israel and in the process of integration in SU-MKIs (3) Ballistic Missile defense system based on Israel's low reaction time Arrow platform to be developed as joint venture in future. Apart from above hundreds of lesser known defense equipments for army like night vision, survillience equipments etc. are provided by Israel. Btw....even countries like Pakistan are going soft over Israel and sometimes back Kasuri met Israeli foreign minister in an attempt to establish contacts. Point is , we have to protect our interest first before getting carried away by ideology fetish of leftists.

[Lurker]

More or less all of the non-islamic and non-USSR block countries accepted Isarel within two years of its creation, a cursory look at who voted against an favour of UN resolution shaping state of Israel would make it pretty obvious.

Where does China fall into equation? Or India?? Either you conceive both Indo-China as Muslim nation of USSR block countries I would be interested in knowing your answer. By the way you mentined which countries voted against Israel, but the link shows anything but that. Could you give specifics on who voted for and against Israel?

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_independence_recognition_who.php

Have you checked this website at all? This is a pro-Israeli website whose very first line about Israel goes thus "Israel's enemies would like to portray Israel as a recent contaminant" http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_faq_palestine_other_countries.php Look around and you will see everything from Why do Christian Zionists support Israel to Why was Gandhi against Zionists. Not to say that the author goes on to show why Gandhi was misled, how Muslims misled him and how Jews were right all along. Go ahead and take a look. xxxx

[Lurker]

Instead of getting carried away by usual spin thrown by leftists as few recognized Israel etc. etc., Indians need to think about importance of our partnership with Israel which ONLY benefits INDIA, in return all we need to do is just say some kind words in UN.

Redundant argument. I dont expect right wing Hindu fanatics to realize this but I will give it a shot. If you want to show how Israeli-Indian relationship will benefit India NOW have the guts to start at that face value. Stop using Nehru or past Indian leaders as a bait.

At present ALL important future defense projects in India, are having Israeli assistance in some ways, even when Unkil is still sceptical about our rising military status (though not vocal now) (1) Barak naval defense missile (2) Radars and Avionics-- custom made for India by Israel and in the process of integration in SU-MKIs (3) Missile defense system based on Israel's low reaction time Arrow platform to be developed as joint venture in future.

So keep the article limited to Defence. Dont make nauseating claims about high-tech etc. That is nothing more than a smoke-screen. I repeat again(which you obviously failed to understand before). More than half, even 2/3rd of Indo-Israel trade is based on Diamonds. Please feel free to prove me wrong. And do tell us all what %age of total trade is due to Defence. Again have the guts to say what this relationship is for, dont give me tall claims about Foreign Investment.

Btw....even countries like Pakistan are going soft over Israel and sometimes back Kasuri met Israeli foreign minister in an attempt to establish contacts. Point is , we have to protect our interest first before getting carried away by ideology fetish of leftists.

And who here has claimed that runs contrary to that??? It is either your right wing Hindutva scare-mongering at work or a typical "Lets blame it all on leftists". Wouldnt it be more appropriate if you show the exact "leftist" issues that seems to irk you rather than mention the word as if it was pariah? Why not establish a credibility of your own rather than talk nonsensical about some philosphy which is not even present! xxx

[Lurker]

Yes our lack of effort for want of fund or otherwise to start this or that langauge chair can't be thrown as some kind of alibi against thwarting someone else's effort to start a hewbrew/jewish studies chair. If anything this would have meant little more money pumped to the University budget from Israeli establishment in addition to job creation and not to mention enrichment of our understanding of that part of the world.

You must be living in some lala land here. 1) Israel's investment in India in terms of education is hilarious. For one Israel is a country that is heavily dependent on US loans. Take away USA's loan to Israel and see what happens to the country. 2) Israel's opening of Jew/Hebrew studies in India shall generate job creation??? :haha: How many jobs are we talking of here? 5-10? 20 tops? Do you seriously see it go beyond 20??? 3) What is this hurry to learn Hebrew and that part of the world?? Why not learn Bengali? Afterall it is a language that is "neighbouring" to most Biharis. It is a language that has perhaps given us the best literature in India. It is a language that has generated great music. And of course it is a language that will help you understand the very people you castigate everyday - leftists? Why not try to make an effort to learn Bangla first DR? xxx

[sandtest]

So keep the article limited to Defence. Dont make nauseating claims about high-tech etc. That is nothing more than a smoke-screen.

That sums up your position Lurker maharaj...for you important deals related with security of our nation are "smoke screen". Kshama chahata hu guru....meraa apse matbhed hai yahan pe. these defesne deals are going to be backbone of our security in future to protect 1 billion idolater Kaafirs of India.

Please feel free to prove me wrong. And do tell us all what %age of total trade is due to Defence.

India won't gain anything by proving you wrong or right. For info sake, Israel has become the second largest defense supplier for India after Russia, within a quick time after establishing defense ties. As far as percentage and semnatics of statistics is concerned, I have no info, particularly when our whole defense budgest itself is less than 2.5 % of GDP (lesser thatn our hostile neighbors) -- so how much you can expect Israel to trade in this limitation?

[sandtest]

btw....There were some news in past that Israel offerred India direct help in eliminating Pakitsan's nuclear facilities, much before the rogue smugglers tested the nukes.... But as usual our ball less leaders, wasted that golden opportunity.

[Lurker]

That sums up your position Lurker maharaj...for you important deals related with security of our nation are "smoke screen". Kshama chahata hu guru....meraa apse matbhed hai yahan pe.

Kshama kar diya wats. Abhi khsmadaan de diya hoon issiliye wont rebuke you but next time stop such nonsensical patriotic brouhaha. It is amply clear that either you have no clue about Indo-Israel trade(or else you would have atleast made an effort to prove my diamond trade critique wrong) or you just dont find it hard to accept that I may actually be right.

As far as percentage and semnatics of statistics is concerned, I have no info, particularly when our whole defense budgest itself is less than 2.5 % of GDP (lesser thatn our hostile neighbors) -- so how much you can expect Israel to trade in this limitation?

Alright let me do the legwork for you then. While diamonds constituted about 65% of India's exports to Israel, the other major products were textiles ($ 80 million), chemicals ($ 46 million), rubber and plastic products ($23 million), machinery ($ 15 million) and base metals ($ 14 million). Areas of significant growth in India's exports were prepared foodstuffs (173%), rubber and plastics (145%), diamonds (88%), machinery (85%), transport equipment (78%) and chemicals (32%). Israeli exports to India grew by 31% from $473.5 million in 2001 to $619.8 million in 2002. Israel's exports excluding diamonds increased by over 7%. Principal items exported by Israel were diamonds ($ 400 million), machinery ($ 98 million), chemical products ($ 69 million) and optical, medical and other equipment ($ 21 million). http://www.ficci.com/international/countries/israel/israel-commercialrelations.htm Its from FICCI website. Admittedly the numbers are old(about 3 years back) but please feel free to check up the trend on Diamond Trade. I would be intersted if you could show me numbers that goes against what I have put above. As for your kaafir rhetoric and all that, well why should I even bother wasting my time on that? xxx