'Raped' senior citizen admits to consensual sex

[The Outsider]

you get me number on 1.5 millions murders those happen in US every year' date=' i'll get you this :giggle:[/quote'] Abortions are not illegal in the US, so there are no convictions. However, gender based abortions are illegal in India and there have been 50 million such crimes. Putting smilies doesn't put the two things at par.

[DomainK]

Guys, there is a difference between abortion and intentional female infanticide.

[Tiger80]

Nobody is denying it? Look at Raghav's posts in this and other threads and you would think poor men are being victimized by demonic women.

I think Raghav is just trying tell the other side of story .Crimes like rape generate much sensation and sympathy for victims.On the other hand people just ignore other henious crimes especially when victim are men Let me give you quick stats.Mumbai has 227 murders in 2010 compared to 519 in Delhi.Delhi also register twice the number of rapes.So it means Delhi has more than twice the number of rapes and murders yet Delhi is called rape capital and not the murder capital?If his sympathy is more toward the other side of victims then what's wrong? I don't think he said women are demonic if I have not missed any of his posts.

Every law is misused in India. Your suggestion is anarchy? You talk about laws - there are laws which prevent determination of the gender of the child and subsequent abortions. How many of the 50 million imbalance created by such practices have been convicted?

The scope of misuse is very high in women centric laws than the other one because there is pre determined victim.Just read about DV act 2005 and you will get the answer.What women is say must be accepted, only male members of family can be arrested. http://www.lawyersclubindia.com/forum/Heavy-Misuse-of-Domestic-Violence-Act-41336.asp Also in 50 million illegal abortions the culprits escaped the law ,it is not misuse.Almost the entire corrupt system is escaping the law and nobody can do anything.Misuse is not equal to escape

Females are systematically discriminated against in our society on a very large scale. They need specific laws to protect this discrimination. Misuse of the law must be dealt with in it's own way but it's crazy to suggest women in India don't need specific laws or the misuse of the law is remotely as widespread or as big a problem as discrimination against women.

Yes Female need special laws but all provisions should be made that it should be not misused Anyway women are not the only one which are victim in our society.poor people are worst victims ,why can't we create special laws where their words should have more value over the rich people? Similar laws should be made for SCs , Sts and muslims as they also the worst victims of our society

[ganeshran]

Equating a civil issue like misuse of laws to a criminal problem like rape is sheer intellectual dishonesty and despite all the claims to the contrary, it is exactly what is being done on this thread. It is like saying Jews being exterminated in concentration camps was a heinous crime but do you know how much money the Jewish shopkeepers made by cheating their customers? Rape is not the only crime against women. What often goes unreported is the huge number of lewd comments, improper touching in crowded places that women endure in our cities on a day to day basis.

Anyway women are not the only one which are victim in our society.poor people are worst victims ,why can't we create special laws where their words should have more value over the rich people? Similar laws should be made for SCs , Sts and muslims as they also the worst victims of our society

The poor condition of SCs and STs has nothing to do with the topic of this thread, not sure why you brought that up.

[The Outsider]

I think Raghav is just trying tell the other side of story .Crimes like rape generate much sensation and sympathy for victims.On the other hand people just ignore other henious crimes especially when victim are men

Yes, there are gruesome crimes in which victims are men, but how many of these crimes happen because the victim was a male? And there is nothing wrong in highlighting the crimes in which victims are male, Raghav has been doing it as a point scoring exercise - "Dekho dekho, even women commit crimes against men so there is no need for special laws to protect women".

Let me give you quick stats.Mumbai has 227 murders in 2010 compared to 519 in Delhi.Delhi also register twice the number of rapes.So it means Delhi has more than twice the number of rapes and murders yet Delhi is called rape capital and not the murder capital?If his sympathy is more toward the other side of victims then what's wrong? I don't think he said women are demonic if I have not missed any of his posts.

Phir wohi! Rapes happen because the victim is a woman. The driving force behind most other crimes and murders in which the victims are men is not because of their gender.

The scope of misuse is very high in women centric laws than the other one because there is pre determined victim.Just read about DV act 2005 and you will get the answer.What women is say must be accepted, only male members of family can be arrested. http://www.lawyersclubindia.com/forum/Heavy-Misuse-of-Domestic-Violence-Act-41336.asp

What else are you going to base dowry allegations on? Koi stamp paper pe to dowry demand nahin karta hai. Yes there are incidents of misuse, but that does not mean you go an scrap the law. I am all in favor of punishing those who made frivolous accusations, but that does not mean you remove the shield of protection for women. I remember in the 80s and 90s dowry was a big social curse, it still is but the law has certainly made things better. Abhi average dowry demand karne waale ki phatti hai.

Also in 50 million illegal abortions the culprits escaped the law ,it is not misuse.Almost the entire corrupt system is escaping the law and nobody can do anything.Misuse is not equal to escape

Yeah and that's why quoting statistics about the number of dowry convictions makes little sense as to the effectiveness of the law. Specially in a thing like dowry, there would hardly be any physical evidence of the demand. Saying only 5 out of 1000 were convicted implies that the law is being misused is misleading. Chaar din hawalaat ki hawa kha kar kam se kam akal thikane to aa jaati hai dahej maange waale ki, even though he might not get convicted ultimately. And such a safeguard is absolutely necessary in a society where women are treated with such disdain.

Yes Female need special laws but all provisions should be made that it should be not misused

I have no issues with that, but if provisions include providing documentary evidence of dowry demands how is that even possible?

Anyway women are not the only one which are victim in our society.poor people are worst victims ,why can't we create special laws where their words should have more value over the rich people? Similar laws should be made for SCs , Sts and muslims as they also the worst victims of our society

There are already many laws which protect the minority group being persecuted in India. There are special minority commissions etc. etc.

[Raghav_12]

Equating a civil issue like misuse of laws to a criminal problem like rape is sheer intellectual dishonesty and despite all the claims to the contrary' date= it is exactly what is being done on this thread. It is like saying Jews being exterminated in concentration camps was a heinous crime but do you know how much money the Jewish shopkeepers made by cheating their customers? Rape is not the only crime against women. What often goes unreported is the huge number of lewd comments, improper touching in crowded places that women endure in our cities on a day to day basis. The poor condition of SCs and STs has nothing to do with the topic of this thread, not sure why you brought that up.

Gannu atleast read a bit of law before making this kind of statement. False cases is not a civil issue. It is as criminal thing as of reported crime. An attempt to get somebody prisoned for life for your personal vendetta can not be a civil matter. Hope you understand seriouslness of such attempts. You need to read up IPC 211.

Whoever, with intent to cause injury to any person, institutes or causes to be instituted any criminal proceeding against that person, or falsely charges any person with having committed an offence, knowing that there is no just or lawful ground for such proceeding or charge against that person, shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to two years, or with fine, or with both; and if such criminal proceeding be instituted on a false charge of an offence punishable with death 1[imprisonment for life], or imprisonment for seven years or upwards, shall be punishable with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to seven years, and shall also be liable to fine.

Who wants to know the extent of misuse/abuse of dowry harrassment 498a can read this article. Even a 2 months old baby had to get an anticipatory bail in one case of 498a. http://www.lawyersclubindia.com/forum/2-month-old-charged-under-498a-get-bail-71271.asp This is not some isolated case. Most of 498a cases follow this pattern only. As per reports only 2 out of 100 persons are found guilty by court. Rest 98 spend some 4-5 years of their life runing around courts or they agree to pay huge sums to wife's family. Even NCW chairman Mamta Sharma, who would have been last person to admit such misuse, went on record to say that 498a should be amended to stop it's misuse. Many courts in India has gone on to declare 498a as legal terrorism, including apex court. http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-03-03/delhi/28649957_1_dowry-harassment-section-498a-legal-terrorism People need to realize that misuse/abuse of law, particularly gender specific one, is much bigger problem than it is perceived by common man. Media has little interst in preseenting this side of the story as it would not capture as many eye balls as actual stories of crime.

[Tiger80]

Yes' date=' there are gruesome crimes in which victims are men, but how many of these crimes happen [i']because the victim was a male? And there is nothing wrong in highlighting the crimes in which victims are male, Raghav has been doing it as a point scoring exercise - "Dekho dekho, even women commit crimes against men so there is no need for special laws to protect women".

Does it matter that because the crime is not gender based ? At the end of crime there is a victim and if by any chance then he is primary bread winner then lives of 3-4 pople get destroyed? And read Raghav's post in thread.He said UNLIMITED POWER to women.To this statement I agree .if anywhere he stated that women don't need any special laws then I disagree

Phir wohi! Rapes happen because the victim is a woman. The driving force behind most other crimes and murders in which the victims are men is not because of their gender.

Yes victims in rape are women , but this is the way this crime happen and at the end of day there is victim and a criminal.Criminals don't think in logical way .they commit whatever crime they want , whether it is gender based or not.In many of gang rapes the accused already were criminals .they commit petty crimes and get away with it and then one day they commit rape.If you want to stop rapes then you have create fear of law and tell people that if they commit crime then they are not going to get away with it

What else are you going to base dowry allegations on? Koi stamp paper pe to dowry demand nahin karta hai. Yes there are incidents of misuse, but that does not mean you go an scrap the law. I am all in favor of punishing those who made frivolous accusations, but that does not mean you remove the shield of protection for women. I remember in the 80s and 90s dowry was a big social curse, it still is but the law has certainly made things better. Abhi average dowry demand karne waale ki phatti hai.

Where did I say scrap the law? For god's sake make as many laws as you want to protect women but make them within spirit of constituition that 'Let hundred guilty be acquitted but one innocent should not be punished and give the accused fair chance.don't turn a blind eye if they are being misused

Yeah and that's why quoting statistics about the number of dowry convictions makes little sense as to the effectiveness of the law. Specially in a thing like dowry, there would hardly be any phys ical evidence of the demand. Saying only 5 out of 1000 were convicted implies that the law is being misused is misleading. Chaar din hawalaat ki hawa kha kar kam se kam akal thikane to aa jaati hai dahej maange waale ki, even though he might not get convicted ultimately. And such a safeguard is absolutely necessary in a society where women are treated with such disdain.

O.K keep stats aside and read this Misuse of 498A is like Legal Terrorism - SC http://www.lawyersclubindia.com/judiciary/Misuse-of-498A-is-like-Legal-Terrorism-SC-1273.asp Delhi court expresses concern over misuse of Domestic Violence Act http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_delhi-court-expresses-concern-over-misuse-of-domestic-violence-act_1430257 Even courts have accepted that these laws are misused ,now tell me on which other laws which are supposed to safeguard rights of oppressed and weak are misused and courts have expressed concern over it.

There are already many laws which protect the minority group being persecuted in India. There are special minority commissions etc. etc.

Yes there are laws to protect SCs , Sts and minorities , but hardly any of them of them being reported of misused because none of them is being designed that it gives upper hand to them. On the other hand just write misuse of 498a or dv act and hundreds of sites and blogs emerge.Do you believe that these people have gone crazy and they are making sites or it is a genuine problem?

[The Outsider]

Does it matter that because the crime is not gender based ? At the end of crime there is a victim and if by any chance then he is primary bread winner then lives of 3-4 pople get destroyed?

Yes it does, because the laws you are going to implement have to take into account the nature of the crime. Agar gender based crime ho rahi hai, why would you ignore this fact while formulating the laws?

And read Raghav's post in thread.He said UNLIMITED POWER to women.To this statement I agree .if anywhere he stated that women don't need any special laws then I disagree

UNLIMITED POWERS kiske paas hai apne desh mein? Are you suggesting that married women have unlimited powers - I think that's far from the truth.

Yes victims in rape are women , but this is the way this crime happen and at the end of day there is victim and a criminal.Criminals don't think in logical way .they commit whatever crime they want , whether it is gender based or not.In many of gang rapes the accused already were criminals .they commit petty crimes and get away with it and then one day they commit rape.If you want to stop rapes then you have create fear of law and tell people that if they commit crime then they are not going to get away with it

Yaar maine gotiyan pakad rakhi hain kisi ki to prevent someone from implementing other laws. It's because other laws and their implementation failed that this special law was drafted in the first place.

Where did I say scrap the law? For god's sake make as many laws as you want to protect women but make them within spirit of constituition that 'Let hundred guilty be acquitted but one innocent should not be punished and give the accused fair chance.don't turn a blind eye if they are being misused

It's been a few years since I read the constitution but I am pretty sure the constitution does not have something like that in verbatim of in spirit. If it does please do point me to the relevant bits.

O.K keep stats aside and read this Misuse of 498A is like Legal Terrorism - SC http://www.lawyersclubindia.com/judiciary/Misuse-of-498A-is-like-Legal-Terrorism-SC-1273.asp Delhi court expresses concern over misuse of Domestic Violence Act http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_delhi-court-expresses-concern-over-misuse-of-domestic-violence-act_1430257 Even courts have accepted that these laws are misused ,now tell me on which other laws which are supposed to safeguard rights of oppressed and weak are misused and courts have expressed concern over it.

Who runs the courts in general? Men. You expect a neutral verdict from them? Forget about that, our judiciary is messed up to the extent that not a single conviction has happened for the '84 riots - you trust the judgment of such buffoons? Sukh Ram ke ghar par karodon rupeye mile the - how many years did it take to convict him?

Yes there are laws to protect SCs , Sts and minorities , but hardly any of them of them being reported of misused because none of them is being designed that it gives upper hand to them. On the other hand just write misuse of 498a or dv act and hundreds of sites and blogs emerge.Do you believe that these people have gone crazy and they are making sites or it is a genuine problem?

Okay,so why don't you suggest some changes which can be made to the existing law to safeguard the rights of women and also prevent it's misuse. Dowry demand and domestic violence are issues in which you will hardly find any documentary evidence.

[Tiger80]

Yes it does' date=' because the laws you are going to implement have to take into account the nature of the crime. Agar gender based crime ho rahi hai, why would you ignore this fact while formulating the laws?[/quote'] From legal point of view there s nothing wrong if you keep in mind that these type of crimes were gender based and make provisions.But from social point of view there is apathy toward other type of crimes that people don't even care. Yaar by unlimited powers he means extremely favourable It is the maxim Indian judiciary follow .May be it is not written n constitution , My fault I wrote that it is spirt of constitution Well the judges always going to be have a gender, religion , caste and region.If we start blaming the judges then we need eunuch black, white no religion judges s born outside India so we can get neutral judgement Also on this front Inda is quite ahead,we had put Indira, sonia, maya ,Jaya , Mamata , Sheila in power .The CM SDM and two senior police officers which are havng dispute on gang rape victims statement are women.Indians generally don't have much problem putting women in power as long as they adhere to Indian culture.But despite so many women in power we have not seen improvement in condition of women particularly rural one

[The Outsider]

From legal point of view there s nothing wrong if you keep in mind that these type of crimes were gender based and make provisions.But from social point of view there is apathy toward other type of crimes that people don't even care.

Well, if the problem is that people don't care about other crimes then there is nothing wrong in publicizing them, but it doesn't have to be done at the expense of gender based crimes as is being done by Raghav.

Yaar by unlimited powers he means extremely favourable

The ground reality is that women are being discriminated and suppressed as a whole.

It is the maxim Indian judiciary follow .May be it is not written n constitution , My fault I wrote that it is spirt of constitution

It might be a guiding principle, but surely you will agree that it cannot be implemented perfectly and some middle ground has to be found.

Well the judges always going to be have a gender, religion , caste and region.If we start blaming the judges then we need eunuch black, white no religion judges s born outside India so we can get neutral judgement Also on this front Inda is quite ahead,we had put Indira, sonia, maya ,Jaya , Mamata , Sheila in power .The CM SDM and two senior police officers which are havng dispute on gang rape victims statement are women.Indians generally don't have much problem putting women in power as long as they adhere to Indian culture.But despite so many women in power we have not seen improvement in condition of women particularly rural one

And that's why I asked you - what do you suggest? How are you going to change the law which still safeguards women in a society where they are discriminated against and reduce it's misuse from the current status? Keep in mind the nature of dowry related crimes with regards to documentary evidence and physical proof.

[Lurker]

The ground reality is that women are being discriminated and suppressed as a whole.

Can we stop saying that please. Those who have their backbone, extra laws are not going to be useful for them. For those that lack a backbone, no amount of such measures will develop it. We are a nation of excuses, it is always somebody else's fault. Why should our women be any different? They use excuses as much as men do. :winky:

[The Outsider]

Can we stop saying that please. Those who have their backbone, extra laws are not going to be useful for them. For those that lack a backbone, no amount of such measures will develop it. We are a nation of excuses, it is always somebody else's fault. Why should our women be any different? They use excuses as much as men do. :winky:

Bhaisahab, 50 million ko to paida hi nahin hone diya humare desh ne. Woh kahan se laayeingi backbone? When their brothers go to school they are made to work as maids, woh kahan se laayeingi backbone? When they are treated like cattle right from childhood you think woh backbone banayeingi?

[Lurker]

Bhaisahab, 50 million ko to paida hi nahin hone diya humare desh ne. Woh kahan se laayeingi backbone? When their brothers go to school they are made to work as maids, woh kahan se laayeingi backbone? When they are treated like cattle right from childhood you think woh backbone banayeingi?

Yes I have heard that. Myriad of times too. And somehow it is all the 50% of populace (read men) fault. No?? What about the other 50%? When a girl child is killed you should check the role played by saas of the family. When the brothers go to school you should see how much resistance was put forth by mother to send the daughters to school as well. When they are treated like cattle again check the role of Mom. By the way by all accounts it is the Moms who run the household in India. This is true regardless of North-South-East-West or Hindu-Muslim-Sikh divides. How do women run the household and still treat fellow women, be it daughter or daughter-in-law, as cr@p??

[The Outsider]

Yes I have heard that. Myriad of times too. And somehow it is all the 50% of populace (read men) fault. No?? What about the other 50%? When a girl child is killed you should check the role played by saas of the family. When the brothers go to school you should see how much resistance was put forth by mother to send the daughters to school as well. When they are treated like cattle again check the role of Mom. By the way by all accounts it is the Moms who run the household in India. This is true regardless of North-South-East-West or Hindu-Muslim-Sikh divides. How do women run the household and still treat fellow women, be it daughter or daughter-in-law, as cr@p??

Where did I say that it's the fault of men only? I was making a generic statement about the society and there is absolutely no doubt that women in our society are big culprits as well for suppressing other women. However, that does not change anything in my post above as rebuttal to yours about having a backbone. When you are brainwashed, suppressed, and treated like cattle as a child it is very difficult to develop that backbone. Yeah, there are some exceptions and some women who break the mold, but they are not the norm. And having been brought up in a society where women are treated so derogatorily they become a part of the problem when they have control over other women. This is not a man versus woman battle - it's a society versus woman battle and that oppressing society includes other women too.

[Lurker]

This is not a man versus woman battle - it's a society versus woman battle and that oppressing society includes other women too.

And that is my premise, where is this battle ongoing that you speak of? In fact this has been an interesting development in the recent rape fiascos. Instead of opening a solid debate on the law and order situation and how such disasters should be prevented, it has blown up completely as "Nail the Men to the cross" kind of debate, suggesting how prataarit the mahila samaaj is etc etc. Now by no means I am suggesting you are saying that but for every 100 posts about women's right, how many posts have been put up to show what have Indian women typically done with the rights already provided to them? :winky:

[The Outsider]

And that is my premise, where is this battle ongoing that you speak of?

The battle is happening everyday when our society is emerging as the clear winner over women.

In fact this has been an interesting development in the recent rape fiascos. Instead of opening a solid debate on the law and order situation and how such disasters should be prevented, it has blown up completely as "Nail the Men to the cross" kind of debate, suggesting how prataarit the mahila samaaj is etc etc.

Rape is a different kind of crime than the general oppression of women. If we ignore the exceptions the perpetrator of rape is a man and the victim is a woman. Obviously, the debate and any laws needed to respond to the crime will take that into account. However, if you are talking about something like dowry then the perpetrator is the mother in law in a lot of cases and one should address the crime appropriately - in this case it would not be sensible to make it into a Man versus Woman issue.

Now by no means I am suggesting you are saying that but for every 100 posts about women's right, how many posts have been put up to show what have Indian women typically done with the rights already provided to them? :winky:

I think I already tried to address that. Women are brainwashed in our society right from the day they are born - they are discriminated against by their own mothers in lieu of the male child, they are bullied by their mother in laws so when it's their turn to have the power they try to do the same. This not some chicken and egg scenario where the origin of the problem is unclear - women will stop oppressing other women when the society stops oppressing them. Their reaction is a response to our disgusting society of which women make a very big chunk.

[ganeshran]

Gannu atleast read a bit of law before making this kind of statement. False cases is not a civil issue. It is as criminal thing as of reported crime. An attempt to get somebody prisoned for life for your personal vendetta can not be a civil matter. Hope you understand seriouslness of such attempts. You need to read up IPC 211.

Is misuse of this law an issue on par with the seriousness of rape and general sexual harassment of women in our society? Do cases of misuse of the women's protection laws outnumber those that of sexual harassment of women? The truth is that such cases do happen from time to time but you are exaggerating both their number and seriousness in order to draw some kind of parallel with gruesome crimes like rape.

[Desi Cartman]

When living conditions for women suck in India, how can we blame people for preferring a male child. Its immoral, criminal etc but from a poor man's pov its a social-financial decision.

[Raghav_12]

Is misuse of this law an issue on par with the seriousness of rape and general sexual harassment of women in our society? Do cases of misuse of the women's protection laws outnumber those that of sexual harassment of women? The truth is that such cases do happen from time to time but you are exaggerating both their number and seriousness in order to draw some kind of parallel with gruesome crimes like rape.

you made a statement that misuse of law is civil issue. i told it is very much criminal and is accepted so by law of any country. i hope you understand the difference between civil case and crimiinal case. To me, somebody registering a false case of rape for personal vendetta should be punished as severely as rapist himself. One, that person is deliberately bringing lifelong misery and confinement to a innocent person. Do you think an attempt to get somebody behind the bars for 10-15 years for no reason is a joke or what? Two, that person is reducing chance of justice to a genuine victim. I fail to understand why so many people are defending misuse of law so much. Isn't common sense that any law would be most effective if it's misuse is completely controlled.? I am not trying to exaggerate the number nor I am saying that there is no suffering for females in our society. But there is another aspect of this problem. I am trying to highlight that.

[The Outsider]

To me, somebody registering a false case of rape for personal vendetta should be punished as severely as rapist himself. One, that person is deliberately bringing lifelong misery and confinement to a innocent person. Do you think an attempt to get somebody behind the bars for 10-15 years for no reason is a joke or what? Two, that person is reducing chance of justice to a genuine victim.

Kucch bhi bakwaas. In our judiciary system it takes a truckload of evidence to prove someone guilty and now you are going to start a crusade against whose cases could not be proven? That someone was exonerated does not imply that he did not commit the crime - it implies that there was not enough evidence to convict him, to bring in a case that he was wrongfully and willfully accused will take more than the truckload of evidence. But you are fine with that?