Dhoni overtakes Ganguly's tally of 21 test wins as captain

[Raghav_12]

Yup, 0-8 was bad but at the same time the fact Dhoni's the only captain to have reached the pinnacle in Test cricket or to have won multiple World Cups - T20 Cup and the World Cup. Just like other captains he's had both good and bad under his captaincy. If he led the 0-8 debacle, he also led the team to the pinnacle of WC 2011 and T20 Cup wins, which at least to me have been the biggest wins in our history since 1983 WC win. My point was that if you look at his overall performance he's not that bad, and I showed that by simply highlighting bad parts from Ganguly's record as a captain. IMO Ganguly and Dhoni have been the two of the best captains we have had and to make it sound as if Dhoni is the "worst captain India had" (there's already a thread to that effect) is more than a stretch IMO. As for example of Rahul Gandhi, IMO you seem to be displaying that behavior not me. You are the one blaming Dhoni for 0-8 while giving no credit for accomplishments under his captaincy.

He has been good ODI captain without doubt and that is mainly because he could lead from the front. But in test matches he has simply been atrocious. His initial success in test matches were result of momentum created by earlier captains which he simply rode on. Once that was over and star players getting too old, he was exposed comletely. His test record after WC 2011 is pathetic. A captain's role is not limited to 5 days of playing. Captain's responsibilities go beyond that. But I am not sure Dhoni is even aware of that fact. Great captains are known for building the team over a phase, not just for taking decision on-field during matches like Border, Imran etc. Ganguly is appreciated that he atleast tried to develop a team, however extent of success of process is debatable. India any way had started year 2008 as no 2 test ranking. Throughout the year it remained 2 or 3 and when Dhoni took over formally in Dec 2008, it was already no. 2 and then Australia fell off the perch. It is ludicrous when people suggest that Dhoni took indian test team to no 1 ranking. Instead he had got such a wonderful team which was enjoying good success, still he managed to achieve 0-8 and brought down team to no 5 ranking.

[saneindian]

The same old thing about Ganguly building a team with Sehwag, Bhajji, Zaheer. How daft it would be to say Dhoni is building the careers of Kohli, Ashwin, Pujara, Umesh? Was Azhar the biggest team builder? Sachin, Srinath, Kumble, Ganguly, Dravid, Mongia all made their careers under him.

[Ultimate_Game]

He has been good ODI captain without doubt and that is mainly because he could lead from the front. But in test matches he has simply been atrocious. His initial success in test matches were result of momentum created by earlier captains which he simply rode on. Once that was over and star players getting too old, he was exposed comletely. His test record after WC 2011 is pathetic. A captain's role is not limited to 5 days of playing. Captain's responsibilities go beyond that. But I am not sure Dhoni is even aware of the fact. Great captains are known for building the team over a phase, not just for taking decision on-field like Border, Imran etc. Ganguly is appreciated that he atleast tried to develop a team however extent of success is debatable. India any way had started year 2008 as no 2 test ranking. Throughout the year it remained 2 or 3 and when Dhoni took over formally in Dec 2008, it was already no. 2 and then Australia fell off the perch. It is ludicrous when people suggest that Dhoni took indian test team to no 1 ranking. Instead he had got such a wonderful team which was enjoying good success, still he managed to achieve 0-8 and brought down team to no 5 ranking.

Yup, that was all Dhoni :giggle: He couldn't score runs for his batsmen and couldn't take wkts for his bowlers. After all Dhoni was the reason why the batsmen decided to bat like school kids playing in back-yard or that our supremely gifted bowlers headed by that legend Zaheer khan decided not to show up for the away tours. By the way Dhoni didn't inherit a "wonderful" team. He got a team long in the tooth who was on the verge of transitioning. Kumble, our greatest wkt taker and the biggest match-winner, had retired with likes of VVS, Dravid and SRT on the wrong side of 30 and close to retirement. If you think that was a "wonderful" team then you can very well call this Aussie team captained by Clarke wonderful. As for "building the team" I can put forth a similar argument for Dhoni by saying Dhoni is building the team with likes of Kohli, Pujara, Umesh, Ashwin etc.

[The Outsider]

The Trent Bridge and Melbourne tests could have been won with better captaincy. And since the tests were early in the series they could have had a greater impact beyond the test results.

[carnish]

Yup, that was all Dhoni :giggle: He couldn't score runs for his batsmen and couldn't take wkts for his bowlers. After all Dhoni was the reason why the batsmen decided to bat like school kids playing in back-yard or that our supremely gifted bowlers headed by that legend Zaheer khan decided not to show up for the away tours. By the way Dhoni didn't inherit a "wonderful" team. He got a team long in the tooth who was on the verge of transitioning. Kumble, our greatest wkt taker and the biggest match-winner, had retired with likes of VVS, Dravid and SRT on the wrong side of 30 and close to retirement. If you think that was a "wonderful" team then you can very well call this Aussie team captained by Clarke wonderful. As for "building the team" I can put forth a similar argument for Dhoni by saying Dhoni is building the team with likes of Kohli, Pujara, Umesh, Ashwin etc.

Okay UG, let me come in here ... I am a big Dhoni fan and many people in this forum know that. Still I want to ask you one thing, do you really think that purely in terms of Captaincy, imagination in the field, strategies, and team selections, Is Dhoni better than Ganguly?? Forget team building, Forget win/loss record, just in terms of how they were when out on the field handling 10 other guys, who seemed the better leader??

[Raghav_12]

Yup, that was all Dhoni :giggle: He couldn't score runs for his batsmen and couldn't take wkts for his bowlers. After all Dhoni was the reason why the batsmen decided to bat like school kids playing in back-yard or that our supremely gifted bowlers headed by that legend Zaheer khan decided not to show up for the away tours. By the way Dhoni didn't inherit a "wonderful" team. He got a team long in the tooth who was on the verge of transitioning. Kumble, our greatest wkt taker and the biggest match-winner, had retired with likes of VVS, Dravid and SRT on the wrong side of 30 and close to retirement. If you think that was a "wonderful" team then you can very well call this Aussie team captained by Clarke wonderful. As for "building the team" I can put forth a similar argument for Dhoni by saying Dhoni is building the team with likes of Kohli, Pujara, Umesh, Ashwin etc.

Simple yardstick - when Dhoni took over team in 2008, if anybody had told that India would lose two consecutive tours 0-4, that person would have been laughed off. But that happened within 3 years or so. and what this non-sense of being on wrong side of 30's? Sachin and VVS had some of their greatest years between 2008 and 2011. In fact he had got Sachin on positive side of 40, what else he wanted :winky:

[singhprakash72]

Records aside Dhoni to me will always remain a captain with defensive mind set, who never leaves his comfort zone in Test match......ODI/T20 is different story due to its format. Unfortunately none of his team mates looks like taking this mantle from him. A captain that loses 8 matches is not the problem but doing nothing different from 1st Test in Eng to last in Aus is a big problem that will occur again. He should remain ODI/T20 captain but doesn't deserve to be Test captain IMO.

[saneindian]

The Trent Bridge and Melbourne tests could have been won with better captaincy. And since the tests were early in the series they could have had a greater impact beyond the test results.

True that. Not just captaincy, we needed 30-40 run contribution from Dhoni the batsman on both the occassions, not to be :((

[Ultimate_Game]

Okay UG, let me come in here ... I am a big Dhoni fan and many people in this forum know that. Still I want to ask you one thing, do you really think that purely in terms of Captaincy, imagination in the field, strategies, and team selections, Is Dhoni better than Ganguly?? Forget team building, Forget win/loss record, just in terms of how they were when out on the field handling 10 other guys, who seemed the better leader??

I would take Ganguly for Tests and Dhoni for shorter formats. As I have already said earlier, every Indian captain you put under the scanner will have his shortcomings. It's not as if we have been dominating cricket for ages, but to me Ganguly & Dhoni would be the top 2 Indian captains.

[The Outsider]

For the life of me why are captaincy discussions so result centered? Why isn't the discussion focused on the merits and converse of selection, strategies rather than throwing out inane numbers! It's almost like everyone has a favorite and then cherry pick some results to "prove" a point. :wall:

[carnish]

I would take Ganguly for Tests and Dhoni for shorter formats. As I have already said earlier' date=' every Indian captain you put under the scanner will have his shortcomings. It's not as if we have been dominating cricket for ages, but to me Ganguly & Dhoni would be the top 2 Indian captains.[/quote'] What I asked was for you to compare their leadership qualities irrespective of formats. Certainly if they become good in one format and poor in the other, isnt that a reflection of not being interested enough about that format?? I mean if someone is good with his tactics and uses his imagination for making quick on field decisions, he can surely adapt to both forms of the game, and if not, then surely there's a lack of intent. Don't you think so??

[saneindian]

Okay UG, let me come in here ... I am a big Dhoni fan and many people in this forum know that. Still I want to ask you one thing, do you really think that purely in terms of Captaincy, imagination in the field, strategies, and team selections, Is Dhoni better than Ganguly?? Forget team building, Forget win/loss record, just in terms of how they were when out on the field handling 10 other guys, who seemed the better leader??

Watched each and every ball of two tests at Bangalore vs Aus in 2004 and vs Pakistan in 2005. Dada in both the tests was no better than Dhoni of recent times. Aloof, ultra defensive, stubborn and totally out of depth and having no control over the team..Pertinent to mention here the 1st test at Mohali of that Pakistan series, we allowed Akmal and Razzaq to save the test match. But I guess all that has been completely forgotten!

[Ultimate_Game]

Simple yardstick - when Dhoni took over team in 2008, if anybody had told that India would lose two consecutive tours 0-4, that person would have been laughed off. But that happened within 3 years or so. and what this non-sense of being on wrong side of 30's? Sachin and VVS had some of their greatest years between 2008 and 2011. In fact he had got Sachin on positive side of 40, what else he wanted :winky:

Don't know about you but most folks knew we will have to face some results when our "Big 4" or "Galacticos" retire. It had to happen sometime and caught up to us in 2011-12. That's why folks were going on about having a proper transition plan in place so that we don't have to bear the full brunt of most of our batting order retiring/growing old at the same time but not to be. Likes of Pujara, Rohit, Rahane etc. were never blooded within the set-up and every selection panel we had wanted the succeeding selection panel to make the tough calls.

[The Outsider]

True that. Not just captaincy' date=' we needed 30-40 run contribution from Dhoni the batsman on both the occassions, not to be :(([/quote'] Leading from the front is part of captaincy like Ganguly did at Brisbane or Kapil did at Ahmedabad. Dhoni is incapable of doing so in tests.

[saneindian]

For the life of me why are captaincy discussions so result centered? Why isn't the discussion focused on the merits and converse of selection' date=' strategies rather than throwing out inane numbers! It's almost like everyone has a favorite and then cherry pick some results to "prove" a point. :wall:[/quote'] How can you totally separate results from strong leadership? How good a leadership is if it doesn't produce the required results? And in this case we are talking of two tactically poor captains both of whom primarily led/lead their respective sides more on instincts than on strategies devised in the meetings and discussions.

[saneindian]

Leading from the front is part of captaincy like Ganguly did at Brisbane or Kapil did at Ahmedabad. Dhoni is incapable of doing so in tests.

And Dhoni did at Chennai albeit against a relatively weaker opposition.

[Ultimate_Game]

Watched each and every ball of two tests at Bangalore vs Aus in 2004 and vs Pakistan in 2005. Dada in both the tests was no better than Dhoni of recent times. Aloof' date=' ultra defensive, stubborn and totally out of depth and having no control over the team..Pertinent to mention here the 1st test at Mohali of that Pakistan series, we allowed Akmal and Razzaq to save the test match. But I guess all that has been completely forgotten![/quote'] People sometime forget that we lost Tests from a position which maybe Dhoni wouldn't. We let Pak off the hook with that Akmal-Razzaq partnership or in that game where Pak was 39/6 in their 1st innings (Pathan hat-trick) game or when we had Pak struggling at 23/6 (Eden Gardens Test as part of Asian Test Championship). Before that there was a game in which Ian Smith & Hadlee put on nearly 300 runs when we had NZ on the mat. There have been bunch of games like these under every captain and the main reason for this is that we never had a "go to" strike bowler to whom the captain could turn to for making a difference. Blame it on Dhoni, or Ganguly or whoever the captain, the sad fact is that we never had bowling which could allow our captains to go on the offensive. We certainly were not blessed with likes of Steyn, Wasim, Waqar, McGrath or West Indian quicks. The best we had in recent times was Zak and that's about it.

[Ultimate_Game]

Leading from the front is part of captaincy like Ganguly did at Brisbane or Kapil did at Ahmedabad. Dhoni is incapable of doing so in tests.

How about Dhoni against Aus in the 1st Test or against NZ in the last home series? Or maybe you are expecting a wk-batsman to play like a specialist batsman. Ganguly was a specialist batsman, Kapil was a strike bowler and you would expect these kind of performances from them.

[carnish]

Leading from the front is part of captaincy like Ganguly did at Brisbane or Kapil did at Ahmedabad. Dhoni is incapable of doing so in tests.

Or when he came out agressive firing all guns in the Natwest Final at Lords. Sad he could not continue that wonderful innings. But he first gave us the hope that the target was chasable by giving us that great start with his 60.

[Ultimate_Game]

What I asked was for you to compare their leadership qualities irrespective of formats. Certainly if they become good in one format and poor in the other' date= isnt that a reflection of not being interested enough about that format?? I mean if someone is good with his tactics and uses his imagination for making quick on field decisions, he can surely adapt to both forms of the game, and if not, then surely there's a lack of intent. Don't you think so??

Nope, it's just that they are more suited to one format than another. Your argument is extremely simplistic and naý×e. It's akin to someone saying "if a batsman is technically proficient wouldn't he be able to score in all the 3 formats"? Doesn't work like that.