Burma Burns as the World Watches

[THX_1138]

I feel like i am being emasculated with every passing minute. A country burns and i sit here in the comforts of my home on the other side of the globe, helpless, optionless. Please keep posting any news updates. everything we hear here is just phone calls and emails sent by renegade gonzo journalists since foreign press cannot operate there. p.s. once again, china shits on the world by refusing to stop military aide to the burmese junta, singlehandedly keeping the junta in power since 1988 and nullifying any effect of foreign imposed sanctions. FRACK YOU CHINA!

[apocalypse]

stop buying "made in china" products

[Gaurav]

stop buying "made in china" products

Abhe nanga karayega kya? :D Seriously are we not kissing the military govts @ss for oil as well?

[Guest dada_rocks]

Precisely it's all darn self-interest. Morality is not hihg up the order when nations decide their foreign policy or choose friends.

[sandtest]

"Jiski lathi uski bhains" -- this will continue to apply in future and China is doing exactly the same. The definition of "lathi" may change time to time. That is why I say, India must develop radical military and economic clout in south asia and pi$$ on the head of those bully P5 nations behaving like non-proliferation ayatollahs. Our interests are not safe since we are surrounded by much larger commie China and rogue nuclear states like pakis. Worst there are Indian communists and considerable number of ROPers sympathatic to these two caricature of countries . In a Nuclear scenario our deterrent can't do much for various reasons.

[Lurker]

That is why I say, India must develop radical military and economic clout in south asia and pi$$ on the head of those bully P5 nations behaving like non-proliferation ayatollahs.

In the context of Burma how does that work ST?

[Bongosamaj]

bully P5 nations

Err, pardon me,but who ? India has a great opportunity of a lifetime - the sort of opportunity that kick-starts the golden age of a civilization ( the 1st Carthaginian war for Rome was such an event- vaulting it from obscurity to a steady path of dominance in the mediterranean and unlike Rome, our road is a lot less warlike). What can India do and what can India profit form this ? Our foreign minister tight-lippedly says 'we have interests in Burma and we must protect those' . Like eh ? Just about the ONLY thing the military junta has done for us in the last 20 yrs is turn over a few odd Naga or Manipuri rebels while sheltering far more. Sort of ' yes we are helping you but not really this is for show only' policy. Its a big buddy to China, it even lets China use one of the Burmese Islands ( which for some retarded reason, Nehru just 'gave away' to Burma as a token of friendship- it was a tiny uninhabited rock just north of Andamans i think but now its got Chinese 'observers' crawling all over it, watching intently what we do at Sriharikota and Balasore). Plus it discovered massive chunks of natural gas off Arakan coast- which it again, almost completely gave away to China. Burma is a closed country to India, there is hardly any large scale trade and except for a few banias going over to trade itty bitty quantities of consumer goods ( nothing against banias but banias from all nations go just about anywhere to trade, no big deal- deprive them of Burma, they'll just cram into nepal or SL more. thats all), we don't even have any big level trade with Burma. I fail to see just 'what' are we protecting in Burma. Now lets look at the potential gains India can achieve by being Burma-friendly. First off, its mostly a Buddhist country. Correct me if i am mistaken, but Burma is like 50 million people and 90% or so Buddhist. I really don't think Hindus are going to be paranoid about Buddhists waging Jihad on India and i don't think Buddhists in burma will mind the colourful festivities-filled hindus much. Most importantly, there is no cultural schism with Burma. My great-grandfather, who was in the Indian(British) navy during the days of the Raj was stationed in Rangoon for the longest while and apparently he spoke of zillions of Bengalis and Biharis in Rangoon and Mandalay living and getting along just fine with the Burmese,Arakanese and the rest of the gang in Burma. Liberating Burma also gives us some very huge potential windfalls. First off, it breaks the stranglehold of China over Burma. I strongly feel that the whole Burmese population is living in a 'east-Germany of the commie era state- unless you are a part of the military junta (they do employ a huge chunk of civillians for beurocracy and for secret police), be afraid- be very afraid. Just keep your head down, move on and mind your own business or you and half your family could just 'disappear' and nobody will dare ask a question.' The military dictatorship is brutal (which one isnt really?) and it openly persecutes some ethnicities in Burma. This is a fact that even the oddball Burmese or Thai person will tell you ( and frankly, i've run into a lot of Thais in my time) with some confidence. Apparently Thailand is swamped with Burmese refugees of all sorts as the Thais are just about the ONLY people who don't give a $hit about China and will openly fight the Burmese if they have to, those two have a tumultous history of Burma invading Thailand and sometimes vice versa and they are both intensely aware of it. Anyways, the point is, we can say with more high level of confidence that the Burmese public isnt very happy with the deal their govt. is giving them and they are painfully aware that China is the big boss feeding their government(apparently China is flagrant in encroaching on Burmese territorry and snipping away lil bits along its borders with Burma but for the backing it gives the junta, the military junta doesn't care). A freed/democratic Burma is by default going to be less Sino-centric and that by default is in India's favour. That alone is reason enough to do something when the opportunity presents itself ( ie, now or soon). Plus, i dunno how many of you here know but China is busy reviving the 'Burma road' or atleast, parts of it. Apparently it was a road built in WWII period by the Brits, straight through Burmese jungles to link India and southern China, the purpose of which was to feed ammunition to the Chinese resitence(Chiang Kia Shek & Mao i think, not sure) against the Japs in WWII. That road was quickly gobbled up by the forest but China is busy reviving parts of it since China desperately wants access to the Bay of bengal( this is so because at this point of time, INS enjoys a HUGE tactical advantage over PLAN - 90% of China's oil passes through southern BoB and through Malacca straights, a 'stone's throw' from INS base in Andaman & Nicobar. In event of war, INS can easily cut off China's oil and China would be bolloxed. A Naval base in Burma for PLAN will go long ways to neutralise that tactical advantage India enjoys). So a less China- friendly Burma will go a tremendous way to ensure China cannot dictate terms to India directly & flat out ( we sit too close to its oil source and China's best counter is atmost 2 days away and cannot easily break the blocade approaching Malaccas from the east if you looked at the map). This is a tremendous gain for us. But wait, there is more! Burma is a veritable treasure-trove to India.Most of the land is unexplored & covered with rainforest and it has massive amounts of natural gas in the sea-shelf. Now, i am not saying Indians should eagerly go to Burma, chop down the forest & exploit the land like China does ( because it apparently really pisses off the buddhists and they are all mostly buddhists there) but even if we can get a slight % of whatever goodies Burma has now and is certain to discover and develop on its own in future, it will be 'sone pe suhaaga'. So to quickly cap it off, India's potential for gain by destabilizing the Junta is huge- its potential losses at failure ( wtf is the junta gonna do ? invade us ? no they cannot- they are too weak. Lick China's boots ? they already do that. Stop turning over the odd handful of Naga terrorists ? oh gosh ! say it aint so! ) Now this is where the 'theory part' ends and we move to the FoA( Field of Action/Kormobhumi). What can India do ? What should India do ? I dunno really- i cannot give any concrete action plan because fact remains i do not know the whole equation of Burma or rather, the powers-that-be in RAW/Rastrapati Bhavan know it far better than any one of us. But if i were to hazard a few hunches and conservative guesses, i'd go around doing things with certain probabilities in mind. For one, we can garantee, more or less as much as one can- that if Burma was to become free tomorrow, Aung Sang Su Kyi would either be the President/Prime Minister of Burma or at worst, the 'kingmaker' of Burma. Make no mistake, she is pretty much the 'Gandhi' of Burma, if not in anything, then in terms of the popular/reverence clout. or call her 'Mandela of Burma' if you will. Its very likely that she will be in a very powerful spot if Burma becomes free & she survives the event. She isnt rotting in some dank deep jail cellar- the junta would love it if she were but is too scared of the public outlash/outcry it'd provide so they have her under strict house arrests. Yet, she meets with a fair # of people every now and then and it isnt out of question to establish a clandestine network of communication with her. Hell, i bet some nations/groups already have such an inside line to Su Kyi. Simply offer her 'tactical Indian military support- if required' ala bangladesh style and all we ask for in return is that she makes sure 'India gets the most favoured nation status with Burma'. We are, afterall, in this scenario, kinda sticking our neck out for them. Then, on the more visible world scene, India sits tight and fans the flames of dissidence in Burma or best yet, just simply watch it stonefaced ( for now. I'd be really happy if India are doing the exact same thing right now btw). the Military Junta will take action- this is definitely going towards another '1988 style massive public shootings & brutal put-down of dissent by the Junta'. But this time, when the killings start to peak ( it has already started), India makes a whole lot of noise, says its intolerable, etc etc. and if Burma doesn't stop, it will send in its military. This strategy is indirectly daring China to do something or back off and chances are China will back off if India plays its cards right. I mean wtf is China gonna do ? Get the whole world to attack India and make it the 'Iraq' of the world ? Good luck ! we are the biggest democracy and have never resorted to dictatorship/military rule since independence. That counts for a lot at the UN stage. Plus most of the western governments will have a real tough tiime taking action against India once India starts using the ' we are a democracy, this is our responsibility, goddamnit! we cannot just tolerate a despot dictator at our doorstep opressing its people, most of whom have silently borne the brunt for 50 years and hasnt resorted to blowing each other up!' line. Hell, they may get into hot water from their public for not being as 'good guy' like India is. No, China isnt gonna move the UN. Its gonna attack us ? It might but the chances are remote- China doesnt want WWIII, it has the Olympics comming up which makes it very nervous and wanting to show a 'good mellow nice people-friendly China' image to the west. It isnt just gonna risk a nuclear war with India and potentially drawing the whole world in, especially by openly supporting the 'opressive military dictators of Burma'. That will only make it too painfully aware to the world what China plans/looks at the world as and will be catastrophic to China's foreign relations & international standing. So it'd essentially make it 'us vs the junta' in the worst case scenario and we'd quite readily own the Junta with just half our forces in action. And I am pretty sure that if we made it clear to the Burmese just what the risks were for us, they'd do atleast something that'd be India-friendly. And not to mention, it isnt even necessary as stated before- just making Burma stop being China's b!tch will directly do India a great service anyways. However, all this isn't just going to happen outta the thin air- as the saying goes, 'fortune favours the bold'. Is India bold enough to do something about Burma ? It has the window of opportunity arriving soon- the protests will turn uglier and killings will peak. This is the opportunity without which India cannot act ( otherwise, the whole world will see India attacking burma at random as India being a $hit-disturber and not stable in its intentions) and the opportunity is comming. Remains to be seen if India will shed its historic case of indecisiveness and 'opting for the safer option in the short term' or do something with the next 100 years in mind.

[Gaurav]

Is that CC? Too much to read there. Cut and paste or you typed it all?

[sandtest]

In the context of Burma how does that work ST?

Lurker, I don't give a rat's musharraf about Burma, Cuba, Togo,Haiti or whatever. day and night, my sole concern remains INDIA and INDIAN interest. (call me a selfish from core) Chinese hegemony is too serious to ignore.....for India it should not be just about growing Chincommie influence in Burma, but also their growing influence in this region at large. Chin-commies have already been successful in penetrating Nepal. Bangalistan is showing more interest towards Chini relationship. Pakis are already under Chink umbrella for different reasons altogether. Chink presence in Gawadar port in future is something we can't ignore. Chinas repeated claim for Arunachal Pradesh is finding more news in recent times.....I heard some news claims that there were fresh attempts of Chinese incursions in Arunachal Pradesh borders -- though IA denies it "officiallly"...... We have a good bitter history of "Hindi-Chini" bhai bhai and Nehrus idiotic leadreship which cost us our land. The only way Chinese will talk us on table is -- (1) Induct 5000 Kms plus Agni-series missile and develop submarine launched version as soon as possible which can assure delivery of multiple nuke "prasadam" till chinese major cities. Believe it or not Nuclear deterrence is only way you can force "bigger" bullies to talk seriously.

[Bongosamaj]

Cut and paste

More like 'Scan & Paste' - appeared in a local circular as post to the editor. Not sure how valid it is( as its one of those 'free newspapers' run by hippies or whatever) but i thought it was an interesting piece to start with.

[Bongosamaj]

Nehrus idiotic leadreship which cost us our land.

Actually, Nehru had very little to do with it. China had made it clear it wanted Aksai Chinn anyways and there is a very good reason why China wants it - China had only two roads of access into Tibet, through Tibet's eastern highlands and it was too tedious to come to western Tibet for Chinese military. So China wanted Aksai Chinn, as its just about the only way China could make a road connecting Xinkiang ( north of Kashmir part of China) and Tibet. Which it already has FYI. Nehru simply came aware of the plan and had to do something - he sent his scouts to 'claim' Indian territorry in Aksai Chinn and make noise about it but China attacked and the rest is common knowledge. Don't think Nehru had anything to do with it. We just got owned by a mightier and greedier China in 1962.

[Lurker]

Lurker, I don't give a rat's musharraf about Burma, Cuba, Togo,Haiti or whatever. day and night, my sole concern remains INDIA and INDIAN interest. (call me a selfish from core) Chinese hegemony is too serious to ignore.....for India it should not be just about growing Chincommie influence in Burma, but also their growing influence in this region at large. Chin-commies have already been successful in penetrating Nepal. Bangalistan is showing more interest towards Chini relationship. Pakis are already under Chink umbrella for different reasons altogether. Chink presence in Gawadar port in future is something we can't ignore. Chinas repeated claim for Arunachal Pradesh is finding more news in recent times.....I heard some news claims that there were fresh attempts of Chinese incursions in Arunachal Pradesh borders -- though IA denies it "officiallly"...... We have a good bitter history of "Hindi-Chini" bhai bhai and Nehrus idiotic leadreship which cost us our land. The only way Chinese will talk us on table is -- (1) Induct 5000 Kms plus Agni-series missile and develop submarine launched version as soon as possible which can assure delivery of multiple nuke "prasadam" till chinese major cities. Believe it or not Nuclear deterrence is only way you can force "bigger" bullies to talk seriously.

Actually you did not answer my question at all! All you mentioned was the apprehension due to China. My question is - In the context of Burma what do you suggest really. xxx

[sandtest]

My question is - In the context of Burma what do you suggest really. xxx

I already said, I DON'T CARE about Burma or any other country...I am not a peace activist aspiring for noble prize :hysterical: On a serious note....threat of China is REAL and more dangerous than Pakis for various reasons. India should counter Chinese influence in Burma by selling military equipments to it's present "dictatorship" government. Also we can go ahead with some more economic ties, without caring of "peace" lectures from bully western countries. China getting it's foothold in Burma and other countries in our neighborhood will dircetly affect INDIA first. So ignore these European and American bullies and their "human rights" chants and get foothold in Burma like Chinese are doing.

[Lurker]

On a serious note....threat of China is REAL and more dangerous than Pakis for various reasons. India should counter Chinese influence in Burma by selling military equipments to it's present "dictatorship" government. Also we can go ahead with some more economic ties, without caring of "peace" lectures from bully western countries. China getting it's foothold in Burma and other countries in our neighborhood will dircetly affect INDIA first. So ignore these European and American bullies and their "human rights" chants and get foothold in Burma like Chinese are doing.

So essentially a Democratic India that does not stop from mentioning that from every world fora should support a Dictatorship? China's support is completely different, they are a Communist country, how is Indian case similar? xx

[sandtest]

So essentially a Democratic India that does not stop from mentioning that from every world fora should support a Dictatorship? China's support is completely different, they are a Communist country, how is Indian case similar? xx

Look boss....it's about INTERESTS, your countries INTERESTS and it's greater strategic security should be served FIRST. Our pride for democracy and freedom can still continue in our lectures and GoI press releases. But this "fetish" for democracy should NEVER harm our INTERESTS. take the example of so called great "democracy" spreading countries like USA, UK etc. look it's NOT their government directly But their Intelligence agency work in covert manner "supporting" wherever they wish, so that they can "protect" their own interest FIRST. (the reason why I call western countries Bullies in the name of "democracy", becuase they bully countries like India by denying them UN security council membership, P5 status in Nuclear club. So much for "democratic" India, isn't it?...while China enjoys all these status...huh) West has sweet relations with "Saudi Arabia", have you ever been in Gulf? to know how "democratic", saudi is? Then they support Paki dictator and act as interlocutor to deport Nawaz Sharif back to Saudi-- for democracy right?? And then their is Iran --where an elected government is in place, still facing isolation --- for democracy??.. Enuff said. These all talk of democracy is a hogwash and USA gives a $hit about it as long as their INTERESTS are SAFE. INDIA SHOULD FOLLOW EXAMPLE OF USA. Protect your INTEREST FIRST, at the same time talk everything sweet about democracy in seminars and UN general assembly.

[Lurker]

Look boss....it's about INTERESTS, your countries INTERESTS and it's greater strategic security should be served FIRST. Our pride for democracy and freedom can still continue in our lectures and GoI press releases.

Uff boss you are skirting the issue here with some random rants, sorry. My question to you is - Do you want a Democratic India to support a Dictatorian regime? Yes or No. xxx

[sandtest]

Uff boss you are skirting the issue here with some random rants, sorry. My question to you is - Do you want a Democratic India to support a Dictatorian regime? Yes or No. xxx

:hysterical::hysterical: Hey Bhagwaan....*sar pe haath rakhing*...itni der se main kyun bak bak ker rehaa hu :haha: Yes, Lurker guru, I want "democratic" India to support "dictatorian" regime, to Protect it's INTEREST i.e. to counter Chinese influence, same like Western countries do in other regions. At the same time talking all sweet about democracy. I already said that India can covertly supply military aid and develop economic ties with them in my previous post......please read it. hope it is clear.

[Lurker]

Hey Bhagwaan....*sar pe haath rakhing*...itni der se main kyun bak bak ker rehaa hu :haha: Yes, Lurker guru, I want "democratic" India to support "dictatorian" regime, to Protect it's INTEREST i.e. to counter Chinese influence, same like Western countries do in other regions. At the same time talking all sweet about democracy.

Hmm okay so a Democratic India supports a Dictatorship. Wonder what was our problem that we went running to Commonwealth and got kicked Pakistan out when Musharraf took over then. 3 questions for you now: 1) How does Indian support to Dictatorial regime in Burma help us against China? 2) What makes you so convinced that the Burmese junta shall rule Burma forever? 3) Tomorrow if Democratic Forces win in Burma, just what would be their response to Indian support to Burmese junta? xxx

[Gaurav]

It's a loose loose situation for India. What is happening there is 100% wrong though :thumbs_down:

[Lurker]

It's a loose loose situation for India. What is happening there is 100% wrong though :thumbs_down:

It looks like that GKD but I am pretty darn sure the situation is not as bleak as it seems. A key thing to realize about Burma is not only its strategic location but also the fact that it is pre-dominantly a Buddhist country. In the current political situation it is the Buddhist monks that have led the rebellion. Considering the fact that for Buddhist across the world India is the country where the religion originated it would be nothing sort of sacrilage if we come across as the external hand that is feeding the very people who are attacking/killing the Monks. I find it greatly apalling that Gordon Brown and George Bush have taken a lead into a political issue that happens in our very own backyard. xxx