Cold hard numbers ... the response

[siddhu]

If anybody can beat anybody' date=' why arent we beating Australia ? Why arent we consistently beating other teams ? Why are we consistently losing in all big games that matter ? (ICC CT, world cup, Malaysian trophy etc)[/quote'] Maybe Australia's best coincides with our worst. Maybe we don't have enough motivation or fire to win against Australia. Maybe we have developed a tendency to choke against Australia. But i do hope that someday, the clock will turn...

[Guest BossBhai]

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[Guest BossBhai]

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[Bumper]

Another way to look at it is ... had we played test matches instead of 50-50 in those games vs Aus would we have been beaten so many times ? I doubt it .

But thats a digression to the point am making. The point is that our seniors havent been able to make enough progress with our ODI team. So backing them makes no sense in the ODI format. In Tests however, experience counts for more, there may be some justification there, but that too should be substantiated with results. Otherwise, we are better off investing in youth in both forms of the game, right away

[MundaPakistani]

from my memory you lost 3-0 to Eng got beat in SAF and now getting beaten in Pak by SAF drew against WI so you deserve the steep fall ... but most other top teams teams rarely drop down soo much in Test rankings.

The draw in WI was way back in 05 and the recent defeat to SA hasn't been counted yet.

[bharat297]

:haha::haha::haha: what you expect maharathi worshippers to be fact based - they live in an alternate rality one where their heros are improving with age only the runs dont show it. If everything fails lets say that we have a young team so we need 3 seniors with deteriorating skills to guide them irrespective of the fact that these seniors sulk and dont seem to be involved in the game

Well, whatever but regardless they are still the top scorers this year. Ganguly was our best batsman in the test series in England, and Sachin was our best batsman in the ODI series in England. Prior to that, Sachin was the man of the series in Ireland against SAF. So clearly you're right about the seniors not being involved in the game. And now you are accusing sachin fans of not being fact based ... hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha ... thats the biggest joke in the world ... if anything we are the most fact based people in the world. Here are some facts for 2007: * FACT - 2 of our big 3 are in the top 10 run scorers for 2007. * FACT - there are 2774 runs in ODIs this year between our big 3, with 1 century and 26 fifties this year. * FACT - the respective averages of Ganguly, Tendulkar, and Dravid this year are - 51, 45 and 42 respectively * FACT - of the 5 times we have crossed 300 in ODIs this year, all have been off the back of one or more our big 3, so it appears we cant do it without them.

:LOL!! Not much difference between 20 and 30. What next? Not much difference between Ganguly and Gavaskar?

Ganguly, Tendulkar and Dravid average 51,45 and 42 respectively * Uthappa averages 32 in 2007 * Gambhir averages 37 in 2007 * Karthik averages 28 in 2007. But apparently that is such a huge difference it is unbelievable. So much of a difference that it appears we can only total something like 30 without them. Clearly from these stats they are not ready to take over full responsibility of the batting line up. Like I have said for a long time GIVE THEM TIME!!! I cant wait to see what these FACT based Sachin haters have to say.

[Shehezaada]

Which one stands out ? A world cup humiliation or a 2-1 win over SAF ? If we had whooped the mediocre English ODI team 6-1 or 5-2, I could see that we are progressing as a ODI team. But we arent. And England winning a ODI series in Aus, is a blip in their ODI fortunes. They promptly went back to their mediocre ways in the world cup. You saw how England was beaten by good teams in the world cup ? Thats how bad they are. Not being able to win ODIs consistently against most teams, implies we arent making any noticeable progress. In the mean time, our youth brigade won the first ever 20/20 world cup beating the who's who of ODI cricket.

English team is a decent unit at home...they were brownwashed by SRL, but drew with PAK, beat us 4-3...besides, Tendulkar and Dravid were given out wrongly in the 7th ODI, we could have won the series there.

[Guest BossBhai]

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[living]

Well, whatever but regardless they are still the top scorers this year. Ganguly was our best batsman in the test series in England, and Sachin was our best batsman in the ODI series in England. Prior to that, Sachin was the man of the series in Ireland against SAF. So clearly you're right about the seniors not being involved in the game. And now you are accusing sachin fans of not being fact based ... hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha ... thats the biggest joke in the world ... if anything we are the most fact based people in the world. Here are some facts for 2007: * FACT - 2 of our big 3 are in the top 10 run scorers for 2007. * FACT - there are 2774 runs in ODIs this year between our big 3, with 1 century and 26 fifties this year. * FACT - the respective averages of Ganguly, Tendulkar, and Dravid this year are - 51, 45 and 42 respectively * FACT - of the 5 times we have crossed 300 in ODIs this year, all have been off the back of one or more our big 3, so it appears we cant do it without them. Ganguly, Tendulkar and Dravid average 51,45 and 42 respectively * Uthappa averages 32 in 2007 * Gambhir averages 37 in 2007 * Karthik averages 28 in 2007. But apparently that is such a huge difference it is unbelievable. So much of a difference that it appears we can only total something like 30 without them. Clearly from these stats they are not ready to take over full responsibility of the batting line up. Like I have said for a long time GIVE THEM TIME!!! I cant wait to see what these FACT based Sachin haters have to say.

Thank you :two_thumbs_up:

[novpj]

Well, whatever but regardless they are still the top scorers this year. Ganguly was our best batsman in the test series in England, and Sachin was our best batsman in the ODI series in England. Prior to that, Sachin was the man of the series in Ireland against SAF. So clearly you're right about the seniors not being involved in the game. And now you are accusing sachin fans of not being fact based ... hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha ... thats the biggest joke in the world ... if anything we are the most fact based people in the world. Here are some facts for 2007: * FACT - 2 of our big 3 are in the top 10 run scorers for 2007. * FACT - there are 2774 runs in ODIs this year between our big 3, with 1 century and 26 fifties this year. * FACT - the respective averages of Ganguly, Tendulkar, and Dravid this year are - 51, 45 and 42 respectively * FACT - of the 5 times we have crossed 300 in ODIs this year, all have been off the back of one or more our big 3, so it appears we cant do it without them. Ganguly, Tendulkar and Dravid average 51,45 and 42 respectively * Uthappa averages 32 in 2007 * Gambhir averages 37 in 2007 * Karthik averages 28 in 2007. But apparently that is such a huge difference it is unbelievable. So much of a difference that it appears we can only total something like 30 without them. Clearly from these stats they are not ready to take over full responsibility of the batting line up. Like I have said for a long time GIVE THEM TIME!!! I cant wait to see what these FACT based Sachin haters have to say.

You indeed live in another world or need glasses. Please read my post again and tell me where I said that Sachin's avg is lower than Utthappa. Let me spell out my logic which I have consistently done in numerous posts: 1. We are bad in all the departments: bowling and fielding included and are a poor ODI team right now. 2. We have a choice - either we can play the seniors and waste 3 spots and may be win an ODI or a series (which is a big stretch against Australia or even Pakistan at this point) or we can play youngsters and give them experience at the highest level. 3. I am not arguing that we will do better right now with this move - however, I believe this sets us up well 1 year down the road rather than our current strategy of persisting with big 3 4. Also to be complete - I think getting a good coach with this young team is essential. 5. I made the comment about fact because similar to other maharathi supporters you like to use stats selectively and some time blatantly stretch it eg. 21 is the same as 29 in your world 6. When you say give time to youngsters you seem to be arguing that give time to them by letting them warm the bench and not playing them - this is pure BS. this is not going to help them develop. 7. My comment about being involved in the game was about their attitude in the last 2 ODIs. DOnt throw stats to prove they are involved - I am talking about chemistry. Pietersen puts up stats but is obviously a selfish player. No stats are going to prove that he is not. Understand the argument first before throwing a counter argument. Out of the 3 you can probably make a case for continuing with SRT but at this point I dont see him playing more than a year or two and we dont have a team where playing him can make a big difference i.e. takes us from mediocre to top 3 so while I hate suggesting it we should even rest him. Now relax...read this again before you hit reply. That might help you write a more sensible response.

[bharat297]

You indeed live in another world or need glasses. Please read my post again and tell me where I said that Sachin's avg is lower than Utthappa. Let me spell out my logic which I have consistently done in numerous posts: 1. We are bad in all the departments: bowling and fielding included and are a poor ODI team right now. 2. We have a choice - either we can play the seniors and waste 3 spots and may be win an ODI or a series (which is a big stretch against Australia or even Pakistan at this point) or we can play youngsters and give them experience at the highest level. 3. I am not arguing that we will do better right now with this move - however, I believe this sets us up well 1 year down the road rather than our current strategy of persisting with big 3 4. Also to be complete - I think getting a good coach with this young team is essential. 5. I made the comment about fact because similar to other maharathi supporters you like to use stats selectively and some time blatantly stretch it eg. 21 is the same as 29 in your world 6. When you say give time to youngsters you seem to be arguing that give time to them by letting them warm the bench and not playing them - this is pure BS. this is not going to help them develop. 7. My comment about being involved in the game was about their attitude in the last 2 ODIs. DOnt throw stats to prove they are involved - I am talking about chemistry. Pietersen puts up stats but is obviously a selfish player. No stats are going to prove that he is not. Understand the argument first before throwing a counter argument. Out of the 3 you can probably make a case for continuing with SRT but at this point I dont see him playing more than a year or two and we dont have a team where playing him can make a big difference i.e. takes us from mediocre to top 3 so while I hate suggesting it we should even rest him. Now relax...read this again before you hit reply. That might help you write a more sensible response.

Warm the bench? Do you even watch the games? Uthappa, Gambhir, Karthik (up until recently) have played most ODIs this year for India. Have they shown enough to prove that they can take over the full responsibility of the team? Otherwise we are just heading down the route of the West Indies team, where we have a young inexperienced team that has not shown much sign of improvement. And as for the stats, perhaps i shouldnt have assumed you would understand the concept of sarcasm ... so let me explain it now ... when I said the difference between averaging 21 and 29 when we are talking about 10 games spread over 4 years when you take into account injuries , is not a great difference, people responded by saying it is a huge difference ... so if that is a huge difference then surely the averages of our big 3 in recent matches compared to the younger group in recent matches is an even bigger difference . My ultimate point is this ... besides Yuvraj and Dhoni, none of our other youngsters have yet shown that they can take over the responsibility full time. Its not like we havent given them many chances ... Uthappa, Gambhir, Raina, Karthik, have all been given many opportunities and havent yet performed consistently enough to cement a spot in the team (Uthappa is starting to come good but still hasnt yet cemented it) and you think they should be given even more responsibility when they havent even come good on the smaller responsibiities thrusted upon them.

[Guest BossBhai]

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[novpj]

Wot rot .... you were giggling away in your first post proclaiming that SRT doesnt have the numbers to show (apparantly to justify his place in the side) . You were also taking pot shots at SRT supporters again claiming that there we no facts but when the facts did show up you are now making a quiet U-Turn .... how typical ... heres your post

1.Note that my quote on fact base was in response to the following quote by Shwetabh: "LOL!! Not much difference between 20 and 30. What next? Not much difference between Ganguly and Gavaskar?" - I even quoted it in my post. 2. Plz point out where I mentioned SRT supporters and SRT specifically? 3. Are you disputing the point I made that their performance has slipped and we should expect it to slip in the future i.e. skill wise there is only one outcome to expect? Stick to the facts dont make s*it up. However, given your past behavior I dont expect u to be so rational. U will claim to know arguments we are making and show selective stats to dispute them in the process bypassing the actual issues. I have laid out my thesis about dropping seniors - happy to discuss it but not your made up stuff about what I wrote. U should also read posts before you fire.

[Guest BossBhai]

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[gopsy]

You indeed live in another world or need glasses. Please read my post again and tell me where I said that Sachin's avg is lower than Utthappa. Let me spell out my logic which I have consistently done in numerous posts: 1. We are bad in all the departments: bowling and fielding included and are a poor ODI team right now. 2. We have a choice - either we can play the seniors and waste 3 spots and may be win an ODI or a series (which is a big stretch against Australia or even Pakistan at this point) or we can play youngsters and give them experience at the highest level. 3. I am not arguing that we will do better right now with this move - however, I believe this sets us up well 1 year down the road rather than our current strategy of persisting with big 3 4. Also to be complete - I think getting a good coach with this young team is essential. 5. I made the comment about fact because similar to other maharathi supporters you like to use stats selectively and some time blatantly stretch it eg. 21 is the same as 29 in your world 6. When you say give time to youngsters you seem to be arguing that give time to them by letting them warm the bench and not playing them - this is pure BS. this is not going to help them develop. Out of the 3 you can probably make a case for continuing with SRT but at this point I dont see him playing more than a year or two and we dont have a team where playing him can make a big difference i.e. takes us from mediocre to top 3 so while I hate suggesting it we should even rest him. Now relax...read this again before you hit reply. That might help you write a more sensible response.

Couldn't agree with novpj; more; Here's a comparitive analysis of ODI performances of Uthappa and gambhir since their debut against the performnce of Sachin Ramesh Tendulkar in that corresponding period. i.e how he's done between say april '03 or apr '06 , and till the last match, which is the period in which people like uthappa, Gambhir have made their debut. They haven't done badly at all. They deserve more chances. DEBUT- april 09 2006 SR vs. robin uthappa M RUNS HS AVG 100 50'S 16 450 86 32.14 0 4 [uthappa] 19 546 100* 34.12 1 5 [sachin] DEBUT- april 11 '03 SR vs gautham gambhir M RUNS HS AVG 100 50'S 32 902 103 31.10 2 5 [Gambhir] 77 2806 141 40.08 4 20[sachin] Courtesy CRICINFO- They should be nurtured even if it's going to be at the cost of a player who's aging, whose performance is nothing spectacular in the period during which these blokes made their debut, and whose career is at the fag end ,hardly has a couple of years left in him, and most importantly is such an eye sore to watch these days either struggling to make his 40's 50's 100's or gets out going ballistic Now if Pontings avg of 29 with SR's 21 doesn't matter, Why should Gambhir's 31 against SR'S 40 matter considering the fact that he's been in and out making way for seniors and has played only half the number of matches. Take risks with Youngsters rather than looking to save faces with average Senior players.

[Guest BossBhai]

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[gopsy]

What are you speaking Bheembhai, am not making an argument comparing Sachin's younger days with Gautam's or uthappa's top scorer in two series three series , how does that help Indian cricket if that doesn't prepare us for the future, and these youngsters basically have always to be in a state of suspense , as to which match they will get their chances, look at australia as to what it means giving some youngster a chance.

[gopsy]

GG & RU mostly play in the top order. SRT used to play at No 5 & 6 when he Werent Kaif, Raina "Yengsters" too ? Isnt Yuvraj a youngster ... ? SRT has a similar SR as YS even after playing twice as many ODI's never mind the avg.

out of the three hasn't one delivered in the form of Yuvraj. Dont you see the probability of this happening more , if only we were to stop making our decisions because some one 'has been" a great player, some one "has been" around for longer times.

[gopsy]

As it is SRT has been the top scorer in the past 2 series ... What were the "Yengsters" doing ? .

Tendulkar currently is making the most of all the mediocre bowling in the world. Give some of our younsters a chance they probably will do a better job than him at this bashing of mediocre bowling .

[Guest BossBhai]

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