Dhoni criticises state teams for overbowling quicks

[Precambrian]

Conjecture :winky:

How does any of my arguments is contradicting what Dhoni is saying? An interpretation of an opinion will of course involve certain amount of conjecture.

[bulbul]

How does any of my arguments is contradicting what Dhoni is saying? An interpretation of an opinion will of course involve certain amount of conjecture.

1.Dhoni is having issues with state teams asking a Indian player during 'international break' nowhere he mentions about players playing in domestic but not part of team. 2.No country is doing what you are saying. Every country will monitor their players and whom they think need extra care will provide them. If all your main team bowlers are fragile and need to be taken care better find new ones. Main concern here is to manage the First team bowlers workload during international break.Now coming to your example of Dinda/VK/Pankaj etc they never played too many matches for India in first place to manage their work loads in domestic cricket. If you read any of articles about Karnataka Ranji final/Irani trophy etc it clears shows how passionately VK/Mithun etc takes matches..now if we start following your advice teams first concern will be protecting players and then worry about match results.

[Precambrian]

1.Dhoni is having issues with state teams asking a Indian player during 'international break' nowhere he mentions about players playing in domestic but not part of team. 2.No country is doing what you are saying. Every country will monitor their players and whom they think need extra care will provide them. If all your main team bowlers are fragile and need to be taken care better find new ones. Main concern here is to manage the First team bowlers workload during international break.Now coming to your example of Dinda/VK/Pankaj etc they never played too many matches for India in first place to manage their work loads in domestic cricket. If you read any of articles about Karnataka Ranji final/Irani trophy etc it clears shows how passionately VK/Mithun etc takes matches..now if we start following your advice teams first concern will be protecting players and then worry about match results.

1. He does not anywhere mentions "international break", merely says off international duty. That could be due to any number of things, break, being dropped, injured etc. 2. Did you conveniently ignore the Steyn and Morkel example? Or the Mitch Johnson one? Or how Aussies are going out of the way to protect the likes of Starc and Cummins? Starc was identified for workload management a few years back (at the time raising some eyebrows since he was pretty raw) - but that paid off handsomely now for them, didn't it? 3. Vinay Kumar played no fewer than 37 ODIs for India, how's that a small sample? Pankaj was dropped (rather harshly I must say) because he had become trundlerised by then. Koomar plumbed depths of trunderlisation post getting dropped. IRfan Pathan became a hardcore trundler post his international break. The underlying theme is connected to overall trundlerisation of promising fast bowlers after a few years of domestic cricket. 4. Who said managing workload means reduction in passion for one's domestic team? I consider domestic matches as feeders for national teams, not be-and-end in itself.

[Precambrian]

http://www.news.com.au/sport/cricket/workload-rules-mitchell-starc-out-of-boxing-day-test/story-fndpt0dy-1226542720948 A news item from Dec 2012, when Mitchell Starc was a budding 22 yr old with just 6 test matches and 11 ODIs under his belt. He was 'dropped' for the Boxing day test of 2012 citing workload management. And we all saw how that has rewarded Australia so richly in this world cup.

[bulbul]

1. He does not anywhere mentions "international break", merely says off international duty. That could be due to any number of things, break, being dropped, injured etc. 2. Did you conveniently ignore the Steyn and Morkel example? Or the Mitch Johnson one? Or how Aussies are going out of the way to protect the likes of Starc and Cummins? Starc was identified for workload management a few years back (at the time raising some eyebrows since he was pretty raw) - but that paid off handsomely now for them, didn't it? 3. Vinay Kumar played no fewer than 37 ODIs for India, how's that a small sample? Pankaj was dropped (rather harshly I must say) because he had become trundlerised by then. Koomar plumbed depths of trunderlisation post getting dropped. IRfan Pathan became a hardcore trundler post his international break. The underlying theme is connected to overall trundlerisation of promising fast bowlers after a few years of domestic cricket. 4. Who said managing workload means reduction in passion for one's domestic team? I consider domestic matches as feeders for national teams, not be-and-end in itself.

1. Again more conjectures... why a State association asks a injured player to play domestic game? how it will benefit them? If a player dropped why state association as to force him to play domestic he himself will agree to play otherwise how can he get form back or where do he will get match practice? 2. Steyn/Morkel were managed after they became consistent players in Team..Here more important thing is they managed their International matches more than domestic.As far as i know a captain can manage a bowlers International schedule by bowling in short spells/resting them when required/by giving input to selectors.. Johnson have frequent injury scares,obviously they have to manage him..they didn't done same to Siddle..he also played lot of test matches and also played domestic games whenever he was free.. 3.VK bowled 250 overs in International cricket for 4 years , you are saying domestic cricket would have created more problems?? [2,13,7,9 ODI matches in each year] 4.Then how you manage work loads? some time you have to go and bowl long spells if team requires.If people just want to manage workload of bowlers properly how can he win matches for teams?

[bulbul]

http://www.news.com.au/sport/cricket/workload-rules-mitchell-starc-out-of-boxing-day-test/story-fndpt0dy-1226542720948 A news item from Dec 2012, when Mitchell Starc was a budding 22 yr old with just 6 test matches and 11 ODIs under his belt. He was 'dropped' for the Boxing day test of 2012 citing workload management. And we all saw how that has rewarded Australia so richly in this world cup.

So why such data is not with Indian team? why Captain didn't dropped a bowler saying his work load is too much? This is what i am saying Dhoni easily made a comment about State associations,but he himself should have set precedent. Just talking in PC will not help anyone.Its starnge he done nothing till now to address this issue if its really there

[Precambrian]

1. Again more conjectures... why a State association asks a injured player to play domestic game? how it will benefit them? If a player dropped why state association as to force him to play domestic he himself will agree to play otherwise how can he get form back or where do he will get match practice? 2. Steyn/Morkel were managed after they became consistent players in Team..Here more important thing is they managed their International matches more than domestic.As far as i know a captain can manage a bowlers International schedule by bowling in short spells/resting them when required/by giving input to selectors.. Johnson have frequent injury scares,obviously they have to manage him..they didn't done same to Siddle..he also played lot of test matches and also played domestic games whenever he was free.. 3.VK bowled 250 overs in International cricket for 4 years , you are saying domestic cricket would have created more problems?? [2,13,7,9 ODI matches in each year] 4.Then how you manage work loads? some time you have to go and bowl long spells if team requires.If people just want to manage workload of bowlers properly how can he win matches for teams?

1. Bowlers coming out of injury. As regards to players dropped, if they are still on selectorial radar, they need to be managed. Dropping from the XI doesn't mean your career is finished. It's just that you are surplus requirement currently, but will come handy in the future. It is also about the conditions. For example, we play two-three spinners in India as against one overseas - that means invariably one or two will be dropped even if they are "first choice" elsewhere. But these guys still need to be managed properly. 2. I am interested to know how many domestic matches has Steyn and Morkel participated in this period. Steyn started getting his workload managed from pretty much the beginning itself, when he showed his talent was there to reckon. He was earmarked for future greatness and so was Morkel. Accordingly the results. Not one year when they were overbowled. As to Johnson and Siddle debate, Johnson is their prime test bowler. Siddle is NOT. In all probability his test career is finished as it stands now unless some of the upcoming quicks all get injured or suffer drastic loss in form. 3. 250 overs over 4 years is not at all any sort of a burden on a player. I don't get your point honestly. 4. Winning matches is not just about delivering long spells. Its about being smart, quantity over quality. Look at how Aus is managing its pace bowlers for example - young promising pace bowlers. To win matches you need to bowl the opposition out, not just complete the quota of overs. You need to be aggressive. If you are thinking of bowling long spells and thus resigned to cut your pace/efficieny to achieve that,

[Precambrian]

So why such data is not with Indian team? why Captain didn't dropped a bowler saying his work load is too much? This is what i am saying Dhoni easily made a comment about State associations,but he himself should have set precedent. Just talking in PC will not help anyone.Its starnge he done nothing till now to address this issue if its really there

Captain cannot voluntarily drop players unless he is authorized to by selectors and team management. :facepalm: Captain is not a dictator. What next? Captain should manage workload looking at domestic schedules and advising what players should play what? captain to monitor young and upcoming players and manage their career? Captain to monitor injured players and look at their recovery? This is like blaming Modi for all that's happening around the country. How do you know he has NOT TALKED to BCCI officials about this? All he can do is put forth his suggestions. It's not a bloody state secret that he said in the open, its just a suggestion. A creative and positive suggestion. It might not be 100% right in all cases, but at least we need to laud him for trying to go beyond his mandate and trying to provide creative suggestions in the benefit of the future team. Dhoni's already retired as test captain, and is near the end of his career as a ODI captain as well. He has nothing to gain by coming out in the open as far as his personal captaincy career is concerned.

[Precambrian]

So why such data is not with Indian team?

I missed this. What data are you referring to? Stats? Anyone with internet can go and check the workload in terms of matches of any player in the world. More than data this workload management calls for vision on the part of the management. The ability to pinpoint future core talent and preserving them at any cost. That sort of thing requires some conviction, and aggressive thought. The captain cannot do that on his own. His role is that of an executive. Execute the plans on the field. Not off it. He doesn't even have a vote in selections. As I have said earlier, this calls for concerted effort by all those involved. The captain has shown the way by putting forth the suggestion. It is upto BCCI guys to check the validity of the claim and implement it.

[bulbul]

1. Bowlers coming out of injury. As regards to players dropped, if they are still on selectorial radar, they need to be managed. Dropping from the XI doesn't mean your career is finished. It's just that you are surplus requirement currently, but will come handy in the future. It is also about the conditions. For example, we play two-three spinners in India as against one overseas - that means invariably one or two will be dropped even if they are "first choice" elsewhere. But these guys still need to be managed properly. 2. I am interested to know how many domestic matches has Steyn and Morkel participated in this period. Steyn started getting his workload managed from pretty much the beginning itself, when he showed his talent was there to reckon. He was earmarked for future greatness and so was Morkel. Accordingly the results. Not one year when they were overbowled. As to Johnson and Siddle debate, Johnson is their prime test bowler. Siddle is NOT. In all probability his test career is finished as it stands now unless some of the upcoming quicks all get injured or suffer drastic loss in form. 3. 250 overs over 4 years is not at all any sort of a burden on a player. I don't get your point honestly. 4. Winning matches is not just about delivering long spells. Its about being smart, quantity over quality. Look at how Aus is managing its pace bowlers for example - young promising pace bowlers. To win matches you need to bowl the opposition out, not just complete the quota of overs. You need to be aggressive. If you are thinking of bowling long spells and thus resigned to cut your pace/efficieny to achieve that,

1.You are adding new new rules. As per Dhoni's own comment States have problem if a player doesn't want to play domestic game.Now why a player coming back from Injury doesnt want to play? ask yourself. 2.Forget Steyn/Morkel how many domestic matches Indian star players played in last 10 years? only players who have very less chance of coming back to team plays in domestic [Viru,Gambhir/Yuvi etc.]..how many matches Dhoni played in alst few years. Its pretty simple once a player becae star he dont have to play domestic games...at least in India. For couple of years Siddle was more valued than Johnson to OZ test team..any way we can leave that debate. 3.You only mentioned Dhoni may have concerned about players like VK/Pankaj etc..i just showed you stats which shows the amount of matches VK played so there was no chance of him getting overloaded by bowling lot of overs in Domestic. 4.No wher i mentioned about long spells. You only put up stats saying how much top wicket takers in India bowled. All i am saying is bowling 400+ overs in a season is not overloading to a bowler who only plays domestic.

[bulbul]

Captain cannot voluntarily drop players unless he is authorized to by selectors and team management. :facepalm: Captain is not a dictator. What next? Captain should manage workload looking at domestic schedules and advising what players should play what? captain to monitor young and upcoming players and manage their career? Captain to monitor injured players and look at their recovery? This is like blaming Modi for all that's happening around the country. How do you know he has NOT TALKED to BCCI officials about this? All he can do is put forth his suggestions. It's not a bloody state secret that he said in the open, its just a suggestion. A creative and positive suggestion. It might not be 100% right in all cases, but at least we need to laud him for trying to go beyond his mandate and trying to provide creative suggestions in the benefit of the future team. Dhoni's already retired as test captain, and is near the end of his career as a ODI captain as well. He has nothing to gain by coming out in the open as far as his personal captaincy career is concerned.

Captain then should have raised concern at beginign not when he is going out. Dont tell me that all powerful captain like Dhoni doesn't get team he wants :cantstop:

[bulbul]

I missed this. What data are you referring to? Stats? Anyone with internet can go and check the workload in terms of matches of any player in the world. More than data this workload management calls for vision on the part of the management. The ability to pinpoint future core talent and preserving them at any cost. That sort of thing requires some conviction, and aggressive thought. The captain cannot do that on his own. His role is that of an executive. Execute the plans on the field. Not off it. He doesn't even have a vote in selections. As I have said earlier, this calls for concerted effort by all those involved. The captain has shown the way by putting forth the suggestion. It is upto BCCI guys to check the validity of the claim and implement it.

Just having internet doesn't give you stats for workload.There are analysts in team to do that..question is why its not utilized properly?

[Precambrian]

Captain then should have raised concern at beginign not when he is going out. Dont tell me that all powerful captain like Dhoni doesn't get team he wants :cantstop:

Now we are moving to absurd territory. All powerful captain? LMAO. "It is so because I and a few say so and since we have been saying so for years, it must be the truth." How do you KNOW that the captain has not raised this concern earlier? He just said in the PC doesn't mean he hasn't raised it earlier with the authorities, does it?

[Precambrian]

Just having internet doesn't give you stats for workload.There are analysts in team to do that..question is why its not utilized properly?

That's what Dhoni is asking as well. Its upto BCCI to respond.

[bulbul]

Now we are moving to absurd territory. All powerful captain? LMAO. "It is so because I and a few say so and since we have been saying so for years, it must be the truth." How do you KNOW that the captain has not raised this concern earlier? He just said in the PC doesn't mean he hasn't raised it earlier with the authorities, does it?

Tell me when he didn't got team he wanted? If he raise concern why he didn't followed it up and got things done? its not really a big deal actually. Even after reading Dhoni's statements you are taking the dicussion in different way and call others absurd :cantstop: ps : you know Dhoni is CSK captain and also works for India cements? so getting a meeting with Seeni may not be that difficulty if he really wants.

[bulbul]

That's what Dhoni is asking as well. Its upto BCCI to respond.

Ask where? is that BCCI meeting?

[Precambrian]

1.You are adding new new rules. As per Dhoni's own comment States have problem if a player doesn't want to play domestic game.Now why a player coming back from Injury doesnt want to play? ask yourself. 2.Forget Steyn/Morkel how many domestic matches Indian star players played in last 10 years? only players who have very less chance of coming back to team plays in domestic [Viru,Gambhir/Yuvi etc.]..how many matches Dhoni played in alst few years. Its pretty simple once a player becae star he dont have to play domestic games...at least in India. For couple of years Siddle was more valued than Johnson to OZ test team..any way we can leave that debate. 3.You only mentioned Dhoni may have concerned about players like VK/Pankaj etc..i just showed you stats which shows the amount of matches VK played so there was no chance of him getting overloaded by bowling lot of overs in Domestic. 4.No wher i mentioned about long spells. You only put up stats saying how much top wicket takers in India bowled. All i am saying is bowling 400+ overs in a season is not overloading to a bowler who only plays domestic.

1. Sreesanth had a similar issue with the Kerala Cricket Association. He was not part of the national team, but still on their radar. And KCA named him in a domestic match without consulting him. Sree refused to play and that led to some issues. It came to a situation where Sree pondered playing for another state. 2. Let me put this way, how many discarded bowlers were able to make their way back to the indian team like a Johnson or Zaheer did? And be better bowlers? Hardly any. The average cycle of an Indian pace bowler is like this --> Gets picked at an early age, gets hyped up, does something of note in domestic cricket for a season or two, fast tracked to Indian team, clearly hype doesn't match performance, gets dropped/injured, back to domestic, becomes a workhorse, and a long serving mediocre trundler there. This underlined / bolded part is what Dhoni is trying to refer to. 3. Again, Dhoni is referring to workload "off" the international circuit. Not on it mate. I have already worked out and presented stats in case of Vinay Kumar in my previous posts. We can also look more intricately at his workload in each year of his career as well. But that's a time taking activity. 4. It is overload dude. A season is roughly 5 months. Bowling 400 overs in 5 months (Vinay Kumar clocked nearly 500) is equivalent of bowling 800-900 overs in a full year. How many international bowlers do that? Steyn and Morkel don't bowl more than 450-480 in a whole damn international year. That's the whole purpose of stats. To manage such workload, you invariably has to become a trundler or a spinner.

[Precambrian]

Ask where? is that BCCI meeting?

Aha, clever, so my question is put back to me, "How do you say Dhoni hasn't already spoken on this to BCCI yet"? We can play this game indefinitely mate.

[Precambrian]

Bulbul, seems we are going around in an indefinite loop without progressing. You seem to think the captain is all evil, all powerful, but conveniently washing off his hands. I believe the opposite. Hard to find any sort of agreement in such a situation. So I withdraw from this debate.

[CoverDrive]

I am with dhoni on this one. Take example of pankaj singh- guy has been worked around so much in past 5-6 year. So many times I have seen him bowl spells of 8/9 overs. Good potential should be identified early and protected and given quality exposure