Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history

[Chaos]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history SS no one will accept you man, its time to go back to the great PP!!

[chanakya]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history Did someone forget that when Kapil started out he was bowling in the 135+ zone. He later reduced his speed because of the amount of bowling he had to do. Read it in Sunny's heroes i think. Not sure but it was a long long time back.

[kumble_rocks]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history

MP. One key thing to note here is that Kapil declined as a bowler after his knee surgery in 1984. At this time he was the best all-rounder in the world, and by miles. He had made the 250 and 2500 double(something Imran and Hadlee had not, even though they had been playing since much before). Ian Botham was his competitor at this time but Kapil scored him with his fielding and also the fact that by this time Kapil had also won the World Cup. If you check his record at this time you would be surprised at how close Kapil/Imran debate would have been. There is little to choose between strike rate or number of wicket/innings they took. After this though Kapil went down and Imran went up and alas fans today dont realize that. Its just the stats for many of them. xxxx

Lurker ,With all due respect , I believe that's not true. I followed lot of cricket during that time and by 1983 , it was Imran Khan who was undoubtably regarded as the best allrounder in the world. Keep in mind that during 1982-83 series , he destroyed India and finished the career of the likes of Vishy, Patil etc . Only Mohinder Amarnath was able to handle his reverse swing during that series where in he finished with 40 wickets at an astounishing average of 13.95. Kapil Dev, allthough had a good game at the karachi test , was pretty ordinary and he took 24 wickets at an average of 34.62. In fact , Imran also suffered because of Shin injury which kept him out of bowling for nearly two years during 1983/84 . And by the time he toured India in 1987 , he was a lesser force of his former self. In fact , I still remember the beating he took at the hands of Srikanth in Chepauk . In fact the period between 1978 to 1984 , Imran khan had taken 232 wickets at average of 22.91 versus kapil dev taking 247 at average of 27.70. Their batting average was comparable with Imran around 2000 runs at average of 31.12 versus Kapil around 2500 runs at average of 29.55.

[kumble_rocks]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history

Did someone forget that when Kapil started out he was bowling in the 135+ zone. He later reduced his speed because of the amount of bowling he had to do. Read it in Sunny's heroes i think. Not sure but it was a long long time back.

That's right. In fact Kapil Dev bowled faster in domestic cricket before he played for India in 1978. I remember Gavasker once stating that he remembers only few overs of Kapil Dev where he bowled with genuine pace in test match arena.

[MundaPakistani]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history

MP. One key thing to note here is that Kapil declined as a bowler after his knee surgery in 1984. At this time he was the best all-rounder in the world, and by miles. He had made the 250 and 2500 double(something Imran and Hadlee had not, even though they had been playing since much before). Ian Botham was his competitor at this time but Kapil scored him with his fielding and also the fact that by this time Kapil had also won the World Cup. If you check his record at this time you would be surprised at how close Kapil/Imran debate would have been. There is little to choose between strike rate or number of wicket/innings they took. After this though Kapil went down and Imran went up and alas fans today dont realize that. Its just the stats for many of them.

Imran's injury(stress fracture) was far more serious than Kapil's injury yet Imran's bowling never detiorated while Kapil went down hill...Secondly there is no way you can tell me that Kapil was by far the best all rounder in 1984...the only reason why he was able to get to 250 wicket and 2500 is simply because he played more games than Imran. Until Jan 1st 1984 Imran had played 50 test matches scoring 2000 runs at an average of 31 and had picked 232 wickets at an average of 23....Kapil on the other hand had played 62 games scored 2480 runs at an average of 29 and had 247 wickets at a bowling average of 27.7..from year 1981 to 1984 Imran took over 100 wickets at an average of 14.87 while Kapil took 144 wickets at an average of 28(almost double)....so it's very easy to see that even then Imran was easily ahead!

As for his support cast think it like this. The players you mentioned put together took 388 wickets in 177 tests. Thats a good 50 wickets less in about 50 more tests(compared to Kapil's record). xxxx

I forgot to mention Venkat and Hirwani.

[Lurker]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history

Lurker ,With all due respect , I believe that's not true. I followed lot of cricket during that time and by 1983 , it was Imran Khan who was undoubtably regarded as the best allrounder in the world. Keep in mind that during 1982-83 series , he destroyed India and finished the career of the likes of Vishy, Patil etc . Only Mohinder Amarnath was able to handle his reverse swing during that series where in he finished with 40 wickets at an astounishing average of 13.95. Kapil Dev, allthough had a good game at the karachi test , was pretty ordinary and he took 24 wickets at an average of 34.62. In fact , Imran also suffered because of Shin injury which kept him out of bowling for nearly two years during 1983/84 . And by the time he toured India in 1987 , he was a lesser force of his former self. In fact , I still remember the beating he took at the hands of Srikanth in Chepauk .

KR. Respectfully disagreed. Like I have mentioned before Kapil's peak was till 1984. Actually I should make it 1983/84 season with World Cup 1983 as his Mount Everest. A lot of what you have said is correct, and its good to know that you belong to the same era btw, but I beleive our thoughts are displaced by few months here and there. Allow me to explain. India won 1983 WC in June 1983. At this time the comparative record of the two is: Kapil 53 test 2253 runs@32.65 with 3 centuries. 206 wickets @29.5 Imran 49 test 1853 runs@29.8 with 1 century 232 wickets@ 22.9 Clearly Kapil was the better batsman and Imran the better bowler at this time. However you may want to look up my earlier post in this same thread where I have tried to show how Imran got to bowl more(in terms of number of innings) than Kapil and if I had to make a guess I would say Imran bowled in more innings in those 49 tests than Kapil did in 53. Regardless of that I would raise my hands and say Imran was a better bowler but better batsman? No way. By this time Kapil had played the greatest knock in One day history. It was eventually overtaken by Richards but 175* was not only the highest at the time but also incomparable(I still think it is). And then of course he led India to victory in 1983 WC finals. Imran didnt come close to him at this time. xxx

[Lurker]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history

Imran's injury(stress fracture) was far more serious than Kapil's injury yet Imran's bowling never detiorated while Kapil went down hill...Secondly there is no way you can tell me that Kapil was by far the best all rounder in 1984...the only reason why he was able to get to 250 wicket and 2500 is simply because he played more games than Imran.

MP. Imran's injury was serious indeed but do you realize for a second that Imran started playing International cricket in 1971? And that he hung up his boots in 1992? That is a good solid 21 years. And how many tests he played in those 21 years? 88. Compare this to Kapil who played 130 plus tests in 15 years or less. And thats not only all, Kapil also played more one dayers. You do the math on the impact of a human body. Imran would keep getting injured and would rest off and on. Indeed he has been known to have refused to play Australia when the latter had toured during a time when it was supposedly "hot" in Pakistan. That was a luxury Kapil never had and perhaps never wanted. His sheer will and physical fitness would be weight in gold in my eyes. As for bst all-rounder comparison please chck what I had replied to KR. You can also try to rerun the same stats at cricinfo with cut off-date 1983-06-01 for the two players.

India won 1983 WC in June 1983. At this time the comparative record of the two is: Kapil 53 test 2253 runs@32.65 with 3 centuries. 206 wickets @29.5 Imran 49 test 1853 runs@29.8 with 1 century 232 wickets@ 22.9 Clearly Kapil was the better batsman and Imran the better bowler at this time. However you may want to look up my earlier post in this same thread where I have tried to show how Imran got to bowl more(in terms of number of innings) than Kapil and if I had to make a guess I would say Imran bowled in more innings in those 49 tests than Kapil did in 53. Regardless of that I would raise my hands and say Imran was a better bowler but better batsman? No way.

xxxxx

[MundaPakistani]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history

MP. One key thing to note here is that Kapil declined as a bowler after his knee surgery in 1984. At this time he was the best all-rounder in the world, and by miles. He had made the 250 and 2500 double(something Imran and Hadlee had not, even though they had been playing since much before). Ian Botham was his competitor at this time but Kapil scored him with his fielding and also the fact that by this time Kapil had also won the World Cup. If you check his record at this time you would be surprised at how close Kapil/Imran debate would have been. There is little to choose between strike rate or number of wicket/innings they took. After this though Kapil went down and Imran went up and alas fans today dont realize that. Its just the stats for many of them. xxxx

Lurker ,With all due respect , I believe that's not true. I followed lot of cricket during that time and by 1983 , it was Imran Khan who was undoubtably regarded as the best allrounder in the world. Keep in mind that during 1982-83 series , he destroyed India and finished the career of the likes of Vishy, Patil etc . Only Mohinder Amarnath was able to handle his reverse swing during that series where in he finished with 40 wickets at an astounishing average of 13.95. Kapil Dev, allthough had a good game at the karachi test , was pretty ordinary and he took 24 wickets at an average of 34.62. In fact , Imran also suffered because of Shin injury which kept him out of bowling for nearly two years during 1983/84 . And by the time he toured India in 1987 , he was a lesser force of his former self. In fact , I still remember the beating he took at the hands of Srikanth in Chepauk . In fact the period between 1978 to 1984 , Imran khan had taken 232 wickets at average of 22.91 versus kapil dev taking 247 at average of 27.70. Their batting average was comparable with Imran around 2000 runs at average of 31.12 versus Kapil around 2500 runs at average of 29.55.

good analysis...i missed your post!

[MundaPakistani]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history

Imran's injury was serious indeed but do you realize for a second that Imran started playing International cricket in 1971? And that he hung up his boots in 1992? That is a good solid 21 years. And how many tests he played in those 21 years? 88. Compare this to Kapil who played 130 plus tests in 15 years or less. And thats not only all, Kapil also played more one dayers. You do the math on the impact of a human body. Imran would keep getting injured and would rest off and on. Indeed he has been known to have refused to play Australia when the latter had toured during a time when it was supposedly "hot" in Pakistan. That was a luxury Kapil never had and perhaps never wanted. His sheer will and physical fitness would be weight in gold in my eyes. As for bst all-rounder comparison please chck what I had replied to KR. You can also try to rerun the same stats at cricinfo with cut off-date 1983-06-01 for the two players.

I think you are not aware of the fact that even though Imran made his debut in 1971 he was out of the team for the next 3 years and played his 2nd test match in 1974...then in the mid 80s he had to miss 2 years because of the stress fracture. Secondly you can't question Imran's will or determination....he performed against the world's best team at the time(WI).... in fact a good 20% of his test matches came against the WI and his performance against them was nothing short of spectacular! Just look at the 1988 where PAK went to the WI under Imran's captaincy...that 36 year old Imran Khan bowled 45 overs in one innings in the heat of Trinidad...in the test match before that he bowled 22 overs while taking 7/80 and led PAK to the victory at Guyana!

India won 1983 WC in June 1983. At this time the comparative record of the two is: Kapil 53 test 2253 runs@32.65 with 3 centuries. 206 wickets @29.5 Imran 49 test 1853 runs@29.8 with 1 century 232 wickets@ 22.9 Clearly Kapil was the better batsman and Imran the better bowler at this time. However you may want to look up my earlier post in this same thread where I have tried to show how Imran got to bowl more(in terms of number of innings) than Kapil and if I had to make a guess I would say Imran bowled in more innings in those 49 tests than Kapil did in 53. Regardless of that I would raise my hands and say Imran was a better bowler but better batsman? No way.

xxxxx

[kumble_rocks]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history

Respectfully disagreed. Like I have mentioned before Kapil's peak was till 1984. Actually I should make it 1983/84 season with World Cup 1983 as his Mount Everest. A lot of what you have said is correct, and its good to know that you belong to the same era btw, but I beleive our thoughts are displaced by few months here and there. Allow me to explain. India won 1983 WC in June 1983. At this time the comparative record of the two is: Kapil 53 test 2253 runs@32.65 with 3 centuries. 206 wickets @29.5 Imran 49 test 1853 runs@29.8 with 1 century 232 wickets@ 22.9 Clearly Kapil was the better batsman and Imran the better bowler at this time. However you may want to look up my earlier post in this same thread where I have tried to show how Imran got to bowl more(in terms of number of innings) than Kapil and if I had to make a guess I would say Imran bowled in more innings in those 49 tests than Kapil did in 53. Regardless of that I would raise my hands and say Imran was a better bowler but better batsman? No way. By this time Kapil had played the greatest knock in One day history. It was eventually overtaken by Richards but 175* was not only the highest at the time but also incomparable(I still think it is). And then of course he led India to victory in 1983 WC finals. Imran didnt come close to him at this time. xxx

I would agree with you on the fact that Kapil was better batsmen during that time frame. IMO, if you take their entire career span, Kapil Dev was more talented batsmen than Imran even though Imran has the better records . Imran Khan had very strokes and was more of a grafter during his later stages unlike Kapil Dev . That could explain his better averages in batting . But overall , Imran should be considered the best allrounder between the quartet. In fact , IMO , Only Sobers and Keith Miller can be rated higher than him.

[Guest BossBhai]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history -- Removed on request of the user --

[chanakya]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history 24 runs to avoid follow on. Hit 4 sixes. Thats the sign of a champion.

[silentstriker]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history No doubt. We are not discussing Kapil's batting, which was always explosive and match winning on more than one occasion.

[Lurker]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history

I think you are not aware of the fact that even though Imran made his debut in 1971 he was out of the team for the next 3 years and played his 2nd test match in 1974...then in the mid 80s he had to miss 2 years because of the stress fracture.

Of course I am aware of that MP. But what you are not perhaps realizing is this - Imran had the luxury of taking time to "arrive" on the world of cricket. Even when he was not playing Pakistan was not exactly a bad team. It had beaten NZ in NZ and came close to doing so in Australia. Imran, or Wasim or Waqar or Shoaib, never faced the problem of starting International cricket with heavy expectation of match winner right from get-go. You see my point. Lets go back now to the comparative test stats as I had put before. By 1983 Kapil had played 53 tests in 5 years while Imran had played 49 in 12 years. You realize how that works out? For Imran a solid 4 test a year. In an era when there was not much ODI cricket to put pressure on one's body. Here is a food for thought - Shoaib Akhtar has played more test per year than Imran did. We all know Shoaib is a prima donna so what does that make Imran? Let me summarise this for you all over again- You have two players. Player A is a match winner for his country and breaks all record of fastest double(100 and 1000 runs), fastest double double(200wickets and 2000 runs) in terms of time he takes. Not only is he a trail blazer he also leads his country to World Cup glory. Player is a match winner for his country as well. A better bowler than A but has struggled with injuries, played lot less than what he or what his country would have wanted him to play. And does not have any real trophy to show at this point. Tell me unbiasedly who is better? xxxx

[Bumper]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history

BTW, Lurker, what do u think about my counter point on lack of predecessors for Kapil dev (my first post on this thread)

Bumper, Thats a valid viewpoint but more for today than before. You will have to bear in mind that Kapil started playing for India around 1978-79. So he must have started his ground work say about 1972-73 ish. At this time there was no television in India. Even later on the coverage was practically useless(do you remember the one camera DD coverage till late 80's when every alternate overs you would see the game from behind the keeper?). Radio commentary was there of course but obviously it would not have the same impact. I beleive its fair to say that paper coverage(magazine etc.) was practically irrelevant then. Also bear in mind that Kapil started his career in Chandigarh. A small town back then. It was one thing to grow in Mumbai/Delhi and completely other to grow in Chandigarh. Add to the fact that when he was chosen he was practically discouraged all the way. Most Indian fans would perhaps remember the incident he had with Keki Tarapore(a famed cricket coach by the way) at National Cricket Academy where he asked for more rotis as he wanted to be big and strong fast bowler and was promptly told, "There are no fast bowlers in India". Imagine hearing that from your National coach! Not that things would be different when he got selected in Indian team. On one occassion where he bounced West Indies batsman he was promptly chastised by Chetan Chauhan, Indian opener, with a "Great! Now who is going to face all the bouncers from opposition?". It imust have been hard, if not impssible, to keep your head up and play, let alone be inspired by anyone(Indian or not) in particular in such situation. xxx

Do you reckon inspite of the poor media coverage having local heros would have helped ? For Kapil who grew up in Haryana, how easy it could have been to hear about a great fast bowler from Mumbai as opposed to one from Pakistan or WI ?

[Lurker]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history

I would agree with you on the fact that Kapil was better batsmen during that time frame. IMO, if you take their entire career span, Kapil Dev was more talented batsmen than Imran even though Imran has the better records . Imran Khan had very strokes and was more of a grafter during his later stages unlike Kapil Dev . That could explain his better averages in batting . But overall , Imran should be considered the best allrounder between the quartet. In fact , IMO , Only Sobers and Keith Miller can be rated higher than him.

KR, Of the three you mentioned(Imran, Miller and Sobers) I rate Miller the greatest. Not only are his stats great he is also credited with having underachieved. He formed a fearsome duo with Lindwall(easily one of greatest ever) and many peers beleive he was the better of the two. Indeed one such person has been noted to comment "Had Miller concentrated on his bowling only he would have been greatest bowler ever". Plus anyone who flies a fighter Aeroplane during WWII, crashlands it during one of his "sorties" and proceeds to play a game within an hour gets my all-rounder vote. Alright, coming back to what you raised. Yes Kapil was the better bat(vis a vis Imran). Kapil's innings were more dominating. You can say Kapil was Richards to Imran's Sunny act. Imagine 1992 WC finals. Perhaps Imran's greatest batting exploit. It was hardly a great knock and frankly I dont rate it. Anyone who has seen it would remember how he kept getting beaten and also had a life in the beginning. Full marks to him for refusing to surrender and score vital runs for his country but it was hardly a great knock. On the other hand Kapil's knocks right from 175* to his century in South Africa, West Indies, his hard hitting in England that reminded locals of days of Gilbert Jessop...Kapil was in his own league. Even Botham was not as good when Kapil was in his elements and I rate Botham as the best bat of the four great all-rounders. xxx

[Lurker]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history

Do you reckon inspite of the poor media coverage having local heros would have helped ? For Kapil who grew up in Haryana' date=' how easy it could have been to hear about a great fast bowler from Mumbai as opposed to one from Pakistan or WI ?[/quote'] Bumper. Having local heroes would have helped for sure. I mean every West Indies fast bowler of 70's never forgot to mention the impact of Hall and Gilchrist. Same with Australia and England. Pakistan I am not sure of really. Imran has mentioned he was more inspired by his cousins Majid Khan and Javed Burki and took to cricket because of that. Not sure of impact of Fazal Mehmood on him. Coming to Kapil one thing to note is that cricket was not his first love. It was football and then hockey. You have to bear in mind that at this time India was still a force in hockey, and a lot of players came from that part of India. Also he loved football. He is on record to suggest that he played his first game of cricket only because there were only 10 players and he was asked to fill in. Rest as they say is history. xxx

[head coach]

Kumble Vs Kapil who is greatest? Much of the recent success India has enjoyed in Test Cricket is because of Anil Kumble. Kapil was a great allrounder no doubt but as a Bowler Kumble stands taller than Kapil in terms of his success.

[kumble_rocks]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history

KR, Alright, coming back to what you raised. Yes Kapil was the better bat(vis a vis Imran). Kapil's innings were more dominating. You can say Kapil was Richards to Imran's Sunny act. Imagine 1992 WC finals. Perhaps Imran's greatest batting exploit. It was hardly a great knock and frankly I dont rate it. Anyone who has seen it would remember how he kept getting beaten and also had a life in the beginning. Full marks to him for refusing to surrender and score vital runs for his country but it was hardly a great knock. On the other hand Kapil's knocks right from 175* to his century in South Africa, West Indies, his hard hitting in England that reminded locals of days of Gilbert Jessop...Kapil was in his own league. Even Botham was not as good when Kapil was in his elements and I rate Botham as the best bat of the four great all-rounders. xxx

Lurker , I would agree with you here. I personally feel that Imran Khan was bailed out by Akram with his bowling and more importantly by Inzi who played magnificiently especially against New Zealand and this offset Imran's slow batting. Also, Imran khan had very limited strokes and his favorite slog shot was lifting over mid off or mid on especially against spinners. He wasn't a good puller or Hooker of the ball like Kapil Dev. Also, Kapil Dev was good player on the "V".

[Predator_05]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history

Good solid list there SS. Where does Kapil fit in that list? I would say in top 15. Allow me to say why. Hopefully me, and others, would perhaps show why Kapil does/does not belong here without resorting to character assasination of you(or any other candidate). I say that because such a list almost always ends up with character/record assasination of a Waqar a Wasim and so on. First things first. Let us pick players from your list who were original. By original I mean they created their own path and not followed the trails left by their predecessor. I can understand if someone says "Hey its not Mcgrath's fault that there was a Lillee before" but I would also politely tell him that had there not been a Lillee the life of Mcgrath would have been just a wee bit difficult. Okay so with that thought let me pick your top 10. Marshall followed in the footsteps of Hall, Gilchrist, Holding, Roberts, Garner etc. Mcgrath in those of Lillee, Lidwall, Spofforth, Miller etc etc. Ambrose well too many to name.Same screnario with Lillee, Walsh. Trueman had the likes of Larwood, Voce etc etc. Imran had Fazal Mehmood, Khan Mohammed & Sarfaraz. Warne had the luxury of Arthur Mailey, Grimmett, O'Reilley etc.

I enjoy reading your posts Lurker and have often cited the same reason for India's dearth of great fast bowlers. However, it just doesn't wash with me in the context of this thread. We are discussing whether Kapil can regarded as one of the greatest bowlers in the history of the game. Therefore this question will essentially be focusing solely upon a bowler's quality, incisiveness and efficiency over a period of time - the restrictions rightfully don't allow any leeway for other considerations such as legacy, notable influence on a country's cricketing culture and other such factors. That's why i agree with the sentiments expressed by silentstriker. Kapil simply doesn't match up to most of the names on that list. 434 wickets is an impressive tally, but made to look quite substandard when you take into account the fact that he averaged 30 per wicket; the others by comparison are all under 25. That's too big a discrepancy to ignore and firmly shuts Kapil out. Granted, he did bear the burden of carrying India's bowling attack fo rthe most part of 1 whole decade and the lack of a reliable bowling partner did hinder him somewhat but this, and other such explanations can only be counted as excuses. Richard Hadlee had no support cast to speak of, but still performed admirably on his own. There are certain advantages to being a lone spearhead as well; as you are able to bowl more overs and as a result - have more opportunities to take wickets. People will also wag their finger at this particular point of mine and say Hadlee found favour with bowling on more seamer-friendly decks - well then, how do you explain his exemplary record in the subcontinent (his combined average in IND and SL is 17 BTW) ? How do you explain the Pakistani bowlers' respective averages; they consistently took wickets on dead pitches (whether they did it by fair means is debatable, but a topic for another thread). '79 and '83 are the ONLY seasons in which he was WORLD CLASS - ie; averaging well under 25 per wicket, with over 50 wickets to his credit. 2 seasons out of 16 ? Not top 25 quality, is it ? The fact is that Kapil simply didn't have the ability to run through sides for most of his career; he was just a solid, consistent performer at best - the kind you could count on to toil all day, but still incapable of wrecking top orders and winning matches singlehandedly. and ultimately, that is what bowlers are judged on - their ability to win matches. Kapil just didn't do it often enough; despite the fact that India had a good enough batting lineup which scored runs in all conditions and that is one factor which definitely counts against him. Approx 60% of the matches he has played in were drawn. I'd say he is probably in the same tier as Botham, McDermott, Willis, Vaas, Hughes etc. No shame in that at all. Good bowlers, consistent bowlers but a tier below the true greats in the bowling pantheon. That is how I rate him as a bowler alone. As a cricketer of course; you look at the other facets of his game, his captaincy record etc. then he would definitely rank much higher.