Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history

[silentstriker]

Per this thread, I was instructed to start a new thread regarding this topic. Though Kapil was a great addition to the Indian team, I do not see him as being a top-25 bowler in test history. I would ask that if you disagree with me, you keep it on a factual basis so we can have a rational discussion instead of resorting to personal attacks. I am open to being proven wrong, but I'll just ignore the personal insults. Here is my list: 1. Malcolm Marshall 2. Sydney Barnes 3. Glenn McGrath 4. Curtly Ambrose 5. Dennis Lillee 6. Richard Hadlee 7. Muttiah Muralithatharan 8. Fred Trueman 9. Shane Warne 10. Imran Khan 11. Alan Donald 12. Wasim Akram 13. Joel Garner 14. Michael Holding 15. Alan Davidson 16. Bill O'Reilly 17. Jim Laker 18. Waqar Younis 19. George Lohmann 20. Ray Lindwall 21. Keith Miller 22. Andy Roberts 23. Courtney Walsh 24. Fred Spofforth 25. Shaun Pollock I know several disagree with me and feel Kapil should be there. If so, where? And why? Remember, this is Test matches.

[head coach]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history Silent, let me first congratulate you on coming up with such a comphrehensive list. Could you please provide us with Kapil's stats in test matches compared with the 25th person on your list Fred Spofforth so that we can be sure that you have a enough data to eliminate him from your list Again I appreciate you on doing such a data mining. As it is said "In God we trust rest all is data that comes to the table" Good going....

[King]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history Hmm.... I see yet another list of cricketers based on statistics. Unfortunately a lot of players mentioned above will not have played enough to even be compared to Kapil Dev. This is one futile excercise and will rake of double standard look at statistics.

[Lurker]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history Good solid list there SS. Where does Kapil fit in that list? I would say in top 15. Allow me to say why. Hopefully me, and others, would perhaps show why Kapil does/does not belong here without resorting to character assasination of you(or any other candidate). I say that because such a list almost always ends up with character/record assasination of a Waqar a Wasim and so on. First things first. Let us pick players from your list who were original. By original I mean they created their own path and not followed the trails left by their predecessor. I can understand if someone says "Hey its not Mcgrath's fault that there was a Lillee before" but I would also politely tell him that had there not been a Lillee the life of Mcgrath would have been just a wee bit difficult. Okay so with that thought let me pick your top 10. Marshall followed in the footsteps of Hall, Gilchrist, Holding, Roberts, Garner etc. Mcgrath in those of Lillee, Lidwall, Spofforth, Miller etc etc. Ambrose well too many to name.Same screnario with Lillee, Walsh. Trueman had the likes of Larwood, Voce etc etc. Imran had Fazal Mehmood, Khan Mohammed & Sarfaraz. Warne had the luxury of Arthur Mailey, Grimmett, O'Reilley etc. Those who stand out in that list in terms of sheer originality are - Barnes, & Hadlee. Barnes was a tail blazer for England and Hadlee was the same for NZ. You may note that I have not picked Muralidharan, thats for his action doubts and lets talk about it some other time. Now think of Kapil and then imagine him as a trail blazer for India. Here was a gentleman who gave what India was wanting for 4-5 decades or so, if not more. When he first came to bowl for India, people like Sunil Gavaskar used to open bowling for India. Spinners would get the ball after 4-5 overs. The opposition would generally feast on the bowling and much as India's spin attack was revered opposition also did not lose much sleep over it. I suppose we can all agree that spin bowling, while an art and magic, does not put fear in the hearts like a pace bowler. Indeed opposition openers always faced India without an helmet. It is worth recounting here that in Kapil's very first Test match he hit Sadiq Mohammed on his head with a bouncer and immediately Sadiq called for a helmet. The keeper Kirmani went up with a "One more Kapil one more". And everyone in the slip - specially Sunil Gavaskar, went on to mention that now they had someone who could give opposition back,what India would get everyday. Of the list of 10, heck 25 bowlers, give me one bowler who has turned around history, raised his country's expectation like that in his very first debut test.. Bowlers like Marshall, Imran, Warne etc were murdered in first test and indeed took their sweet time to "arrive". Kapil had expectation of an entire nation thrust upon him and he carried that for a good solid 130 plus test becoming the number 1 wicket taker. More to follow... xxxx

[King]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history I'm surprised Anil Kumble is not choosen either. The 4th highest wicket taker in the history of cricket and doesn't get a mention.

[Bumper]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history Question to SS: Why is Murali listed at 7 ? The lists i have seen either dont list Murali at all (for his action) or if they do, its at the no. 1 spot.

[head coach]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history

Hmm.... I see yet another list of cricketers based on statistics. Unfortunately a lot of players mentioned above will not have played enough to even be compared to Kapil Dev. This is one futile excercise and will rake of double standard look at statistics.

Ravi, Obviously number of games played is taken into account when players are ranked. I would hope Silent has done the same. I would be eager to see a comparison to determine that the list is complete. I dont see any point in resisting without anyalysing the results.

[silentstriker]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history Just want to note, its not purely based on statistics. Though they play a large role, as everyone can testify, you have to look at other things such as respect by contemporaries, their performances vs. others of that era, and things of that sort. Spofforth played in the first era of test cricket, and for that reason, I was tempted to leave him out in favor of guys such as Pollock, Fazal and other contemporaries. I wanted to put Spofforth higher, but I felt that these days too little recognition goes to the stars of the past and it is sad that we forget guys like Ranjishinji, Amar Singh, Mohammad Nissar, Vijay Merchant and people who created Indian cricket. The four I mentioned (even though Ranji never played for India), are the reason that guys like Tendulkar, Dravid and other can play. It is completely unfair to ignore them while praising the present. They are the bedrock of Indian cricket, and without them the current stars would not exist. Has the game changed? Yes, it has changed, and I agree that you cannot directly compare Wilfred Rhodes to Harbhajan Singh. However, what you can do is compare the performances of Wilfred Rhodes against his contemporaries, and then compare Harbhajan against his contemporaries and then come up with a ranking. Is it an exact science? Of course not. But in thirty years, when a new batch of Indian cricketers are playing, people will be saying that they are better than Tendulkar because Tendulkar is not playing in the current era. I think that would be sad and false, and you can only judge people in the era that they play in.

[Bumper]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history Also, Dennis Lillee is on the list twice.

[Lurker]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history

Just want to note, its not purely based on statistics. Though they play a large role, as everyone can testify, you have to look at other things such as respect by contemporaries, their performances vs. others of that era, and things of that sort. Spofforth played in the first era of test cricket, and for that reason, I was tempted to leave him out in favor of guys such as Pollock, Fazal and other contemporaries. I wanted to put Spofforth higher, but I felt that these days too little recognition goes to the stars of the past and it is sad that we forget guys like Ranjishinji, Amar Singh, Mohammad Nissar, Vijay Merchant and people who created Indian cricket. The four I mentioned (even though Ranji never played for India), are the reason that guys like Tendulkar, Dravid and other can play. It is completely unfair to ignore them while praising the present. They are the bedrock of Indian cricket, and without them the current stars would not exist. Has the game changed? Yes, it has changed, and I agree that you cannot directly compare Wilfred Rhodes to Harbhajan Singh. However, what you can do is compare the performances of Wilfred Rhodes against his contemporaries, and then compare Harbhajan against his contemporaries and then come up with a ranking. Is it an exact science? Of course not. But in thirty years, when a new batch of Indian cricketers are playing, people will be saying that they are better than Tendulkar because Tendulkar is not playing in the current era. I think that would be sad and false, and you can only judge people in the era that they play in.

I agree entirely with that sentiment. People today are going gaga over the Dhony hoick. Now imagine the first time the silken cover-drive was played, or leg glance invented or someone standing up tall and hooking the fast bowler out of the ground. Now do you put a value on these contribution? The bowler Bosanquet,inventor of googly, is rather unknown but his art continues to get players wicket today. Today's cricket has been build by the mortar and pestle of Grace, Spofforth, Hill and Trumper and one can ignore it only at their peril. xxx

[silentstriker]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history

Also' date=' Dennis Lillee is on the list twice.[/quote'] Fixed, thanks. Added Pollock to the list.

[King]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history

Question to SS: Why is Murali listed at 7 ? The lists i have seen either dont list Murali at all (for his action) or if they do, its at the no. 1 spot.

Good point, Murali can no way be at no.7 It's a freakin scam to have McGrath over Murali. :wall:

[Bumper]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history

Good solid list there SS. Where does Kapil fit in that list? I would say in top 15. Allow me to say why. Hopefully me, and others, would perhaps show why Kapil does/does not belong here without resorting to character assasination of you(or any other candidate). I say that because such a list almost always ends up with character/record assasination of a Waqar a Wasim and so on. First things first. Let us pick players from your list who were original. By original I mean they created their own path and not followed the trails left by their predecessor. I can understand if someone says "Hey its not Mcgrath's fault that there was a Lillee before" but I would also politely tell him that had there not been a Lillee the life of Mcgrath would have been just a wee bit difficult. Okay so with that thought let me pick your top 10. Marshall followed in the footsteps of Hall, Gilchrist, Holding, Roberts, Garner etc. Mcgrath in those of Lillee, Lidwall, Spofforth, Miller etc etc. Ambrose well too many to name.Same screnario with Lillee, Walsh. Trueman had the likes of Larwood, Voce etc etc. Imran had Fazal Mehmood, Khan Mohammed & Sarfaraz. Warne had the luxury of Arthur Mailey, Grimmett, O'Reilley etc. Those who stand out in that list in terms of sheer originality are - Barnes, & Hadlee. Barnes was a tail blazer for England and Hadlee was the same for NZ. You may note that I have not picked Muralidharan, thats for his action doubts and lets talk about it some other time. Now think of Kapil and then imagine him as a trail blazer for India. Here was a gentleman who gave what India was wanting for 4-5 decades or so, if not more. When he first came to bowl for India, people like Sunil Gavaskar used to open bowling for India. Spinners would get the ball after 4-5 overs. The opposition would generally feast on the bowling and much as India's spin attack was revered opposition also did not lose much sleep over it. I suppose we can all agree that spin bowling, while an art and magic, does not put fear in the hearts like a pace bowler. Indeed opposition openers always faced India without an helmet. It is worth recounting here that in Kapil's very first Test match he hit Sadiq Mohammed on his head with a bouncer and immediately Sadiq called for a helmet. The keeper Kirmani went up with a "One more Kapil one more". And everyone in the slip - specially Sunil Gavaskar, went on to mention that now they had someone who could give opposition back,what India would get everyday. Of the list of 10, heck 25 bowlers, give me one bowler who has turned around history, raised his country's expectation like that in his very first debut test.. Bowlers like Marshall, Imran, Warne etc were murdered in first test and indeed took their sweet time to "arrive". Kapil had expectation of an entire nation thrust upon him and he carried that for a good solid 130 plus test becoming the number 1 wicket taker. More to follow... xxxx

Gem of a post. Brilliant reasons, tho i dont agree he should be a top 15. The list is about achievements, not just talent or being first of a kind. An alternate viewpoint: We have so many cricketers growing up today, whose idols are foreigners. Eg: Dhoni idolises Gilchrist, Pathan wants to be an Akram, Sreesanth wants to be a Donald etc. So lack of examples to follow in your own nation, is not as big a reason as its made out to be, inspite of poor media coverage of cricket those days

[gator]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history

I'm surprised Anil Kumble is not choosen either. The 4th highest wicket taker in the history of cricket and doesn't get a mention.

i am not surprised..... y would u pay so much attention to this guy's list, if u havent already figured who he is....

[King]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history

I'm surprised Anil Kumble is not choosen either. The 4th highest wicket taker in the history of cricket and doesn't get a mention.

i am not surprised..... y would u pay so much attention to this guy's list, if u havent already figured who he is....

Fair call, the list is just a scam. Listing guys under 200 wickets but not the ones that have nearly 550.

[silentstriker]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history

Question to SS: Why is Murali listed at 7 ? The lists i have seen either dont list Murali at all (for his action) or if they do, its at the no. 1 spot.

Good point, Murali can no way be at no.7 It's a freakin scam to have McGrath over Murali. :wall:

For several reasons I have done this: As a fast bowler, he automatically has a chance at, and gets the top opposition batsmen, instead of preying on the lower middle order. Secondly, Murali does not do well against all opposition, for example his record in India is quite ordinary, and his record in Australia is even worse. McGrath, even though he is a fast bowler, has a fantastic average IN INDIA! I think everyone here knows how hard it is for a fast bowler to bowl in India, and yet he has done it on virtually every tour. For the last decade, he has been the only bowler to be able to perform anywhere, at anytime, against any opposition. Also, for a fast bowler, there are primarily two kinds: Guys who go all out and attack, and thus are expensive. And the guys who play defensive, go for less runs. They both can be effective and take wickets. Alan Davidson has a high strike rate, low economy rate but a good average, as an example. The thing about McGrath is that for a fast bowler he was unique in that he did both. You could count on him to not only keep the runs tight, but also to take wickets at any time. For that reason, he makes my top three.

[Bumper]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history Relax gator, all lists are personal opinions, hence debatable. To his credit, SS has displayed terrific kowledge of cricket history (in the short time he's been around) and has successfully withered all the anti-Pak taunts :hic:

[Bumper]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history What do u think of George Lohmann SS ? Played 18 tests at an avg of 10. Does he belong in your list ?

[silentstriker]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history

I'm surprised Anil Kumble is not choosen either. The 4th highest wicket taker in the history of cricket and doesn't get a mention.

i am not surprised..... y would u pay so much attention to this guy's list, if u havent already figured who he is....

Fair call, the list is just a scam. Listing guys under 200 wickets but not the ones that have nearly 550.

The thing about Kumble is that he is the rock of Indian cricket - at home. Though he has improved considerably in this regard, he still averages 35+ in away matches, which is unacceptable for a top-25 bowler.

[kabira]

Re: Kapil Dev - Not one of top 25 bowlers in history Shaun Pollock over Kapil...now that must be being very biased.