First time u heard about politics and actually took interest

[Lurker]

Eye Opening stats Lurker. Trust DR to come up with some spin to counter this .

Eye-opening indeed KR. Though I would have perhaps been happier had opposite been the case(as in more Gujjus in the Armed Forces). My point basically is rather simple - Why is it NOT anti-India to question Muslim numbers in Indian Armed Forces but very much so when it comes to Gujjus? If I had my way I have an easy solution to this. Just make every damn Indian citizen do mandatory service in Armed Forces for 1-2 years. This will get everyone - Muslim or Gujju - become a part of most disciplined workforce in the country, put everyone through the rigour of nation building without simply mouthing off tall claims, and also get us all in shape(I had to slide in a fitness angle here hehehe). xxx

[kumble_rocks]

Eye-opening indeed KR. If I had my way I have an easy solution to this. Just make every damn Indian citizen do mandatory service in Armed Forces for 1-2 years. This will get everyone - Muslim or Gujju - become a part of most disciplined workforce in the country, put everyone through the rigour of nation building without simply mouthing off tall claims, and also get us all in shape(I had to slide in a fitness angle here hehehe). xxx

Agreed ! If nothing else, at least it will reduce the war monging and chest thumping by the usual suspects. After all it's much more difficult walk the walk ... Ask AWOL Mr Bush ...

[Guest HariSampath]

As far as India and its defence and wars are concerned, let me say a couple of things I know personally. My dad was in the Air Force and did combat duty ( 1965 Pak war... Chinese aggression etc....in Leh, Ladakh, NEFA , flying GNAT planes etc). My dad's younger bro, my uncle was a Lieutanent Commander in Indian navy during combat and active services...had been in INS Vikrant, INS Sutlej etc, had played lead role in 1971 pak war and attack of Karachi etc. I had a brother in law who was also a navy officer in combat in 1971 Pak war. He was on INS Kukhri and went down with the ship along with Capt Mahendranath Mulla, and he performed the supreme sacrifice for the country, 25 miles off the coast of Diu when Kukhri sank in December 1971. As my brother in law was the TASO ( torpedo anti submarine officer ), he chose to go down with Capt Mulla, when Kukhri was hit by a Torpedo, after helping countless sailors and officers to escape by lifeboats. ALL these folks had told one thing : In Indian defence, it is an unwritten rule that NO position of great combat significance or any combat intelligence is EVER given to a muslim.. NOR has there been a single volunteer for very highly sensitive and top post , by any member of the muslim community in the Indian defence forces. In fact in wars against pakistan ( 65 and 71)... an unwritten and accepted rule was that no muslim will be appointed as commander of ANY significant combat group in ALL 3 wings of the armed forces. I have heard accounts of muslims not wanting to join the rajasthan Rifles because the regimental warcry was " Raja Ramachander ki jai"...and also another regiment ( Sikh I believe)...whose cry was " Jai bhajrang Bali"

[Lurker]

ALL these folks had told one thing : In Indian defence, it is an unwritten rule that NO position of great combat significance or any combat intelligence is EVER given to a muslim.. NOR has there been a single volunteer for very highly sensitive and top post , by any member of the muslim community in the Indian defence forces. In fact in wars against pakistan ( 65 and 71)... an unwritten and accepted rule was that no muslim will be appointed as commander of ANY significant combat group in ALL 3 wings of the armed forces. I have heard accounts of muslims not wanting to join the rajasthan Rifles because the regimental warcry was " Raja Ramachander ki jai"...and also another regiment ( Sikh I believe)...whose cry was " Jai bhajrang Bali"

There you go! Another signing star for India's Secularism. And then the bhagwa brigade will cry hoarse as to how - Indian interest have been laid at the doors of Muslims. The last paragraph with battle chants - Raja Ramchandra ki Jai & Jai Bajrang Bali - reminded of an article I had written before. The chip of ignorance that Hindus carry. You can read it here. http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showthread.php?t=3127 xxx

[Guest HariSampath]

There you go! Another signing star for India's Secularism. And then the bhagwa brigade will cry hoarse as to how - Indian interest have been laid at the doors of Muslims. The last paragraph with battle chants - Raja Ramchandra ki Jai & Jai Bajrang Bali - reminded of an article I had written before. The chip of ignorance that Hindus carry. You can read it here. http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showthread.php?t=3127 xxx

How many times in history have muslims fought against Mohameddan invaders or resisted the razing down of temples in Somnath, Ayodhya plus hundreds of other places ? How many Hindu rulers from India have gone out , forcibly occupied foreign lands and done forcible conversions, destroyed mosques and built temples in Mecca, Islamic countries etc ?? And IT IS a fact that NO TOP job in combat duty or sensitive intelligence position for armed forces will be given to muslims. While there may be individuals more patriotic towards country than towards their religion...muslims in India as a community love their religion far more than country... everyone knows it

[Guest HariSampath]

Lurks, did you have a History course in high school ??

[Guest HariSampath]

And then the bhagwa brigade will cry hoarse as to how - Indian interest have been laid at the doors of Muslims.

It has been...it is a fact.

[Lurker]

How many times in history have muslims fought against Mohameddan invaders or resisted the razing down of temples in Somnath, Ayodhya plus hundreds of other places ? How many Hindu rulers from India have gone out , forcibly occupied foreign lands and done forcible conversions, destroyed mosques and built temples in Mecca, Islamic countries etc ??

That has little relation with a Muslim born in India today.

And IT IS a fact that NO TOP job in combat duty or sensitive intelligence position for armed forces will be given to muslims. While there may be individuals more patriotic towards country than towards their religion...muslims in India as a community love their religion far more than country... everyone knows it

Then that is unconstitutional, illegal and a slap on the face of Indian democracy and Secularism. I suppose Pakistanis shouting "Indian Secularism is a sham" should stand vindicated now :giggle:

[Lurker]

Lurks' date=' did you have a History course in high school ??[/quote'] Do you pass a High School in India without History course Hari??

It has been...it is a fact.

lol..SO on one hand you say Muslims would never occupy top spot and on the other hand it is they who have scrwed India. I see how that works...oh wait I dont! :hysterical:

[Guest HariSampath]

In your article , Lurks, you had referred to some sacrifice by Hussain at Karbala, and the Muharram mourning. I think you must be aware that this 7th century event was a inter sect clash between muslims themselves....much the same way we have the Shia-Sunni terrorism nowadays . So would you call Shia/Sunni suicide bombers as "sacrificing " ??

[Guest HariSampath]

Do you pass a High School in India without History course Hari?? lol..SO on one hand you say Muslims would never occupy top spot and on the other hand it is they who have scrwed India. I see how that works...oh wait I dont! :hysterical:

Lurks , I don't have history knowledge merely from text books written and approved by Indira Gandhi and Co...I have read Indian and world history compiled by authors world over. It is BECAUSE muslim fanatical thinking and minority pandering has always screwed India that some key positions in the country's defence are NEVER entrusted with muslims

[Lurker]

In your article ' date=' Lurks, you had referred to some sacrifice by Hussain at Karbala, and the Muharram mourning. I think you must be aware that this 7th century event was a inter sect clash between muslims themselves....[b']much the same way we have the Shia-Sunni terrorism nowadays . So would you call Shia/Sunni suicide bombers as "sacrificing " ??

Thats a bogus question irrelevant to the article. The article is rather straight forward. Hindus have little knowledge of Islamic history, Indian Muslims on the other hand have a much better knowledge of Hindu culture. Please read up my very first paragraph quoting Munshi Premchand.

It is BECAUSE muslim fanatical thinking and minority pandering has always screwed India that some key positions in the country's defence are NEVER entrusted with muslims

Like when? Give me explicit evidence circa 1947. Also help me understand why should I not consider you some sort of racist for openly admitting Muslims dont deserve a top spot in Indian Armed Forces? xxx

[Guest HariSampath]

That has little relation with a Muslim born in India today

. But you had not referred to any "sacrifice " made by any Indian muslim of today, all you had referred to was some event in Karbala 13 centuries back ( in an inter sect Islamic feud in the middle east). Show me the relevance of this to muslims 'sacrifice" in India

Then that is unconstitutional, illegal and a slap on the face of Indian democracy and Secularism. I suppose Pakistanis shouting "Indian Secularism is a sham" should stand vindicated now :giggle:

Yes it is and it is a slap in the face of minority pandering and appeasement, and a slap in the face of "secularism", as defined by Indira gandhi and Co...which is basically "allow muslims to give priority to Islam over India...allow muslims to wear their religion on their sleeve, allow muslims to have a different civil code...allow triple talq over all norms of marital decency...allow subsidies paid for by all taxpayers for Haj pilgrimages but no subsidies for some poor man wanting to go to vaishnodevi or Tirupati.... and if Hindus say they are religious, scream fanatics and fascists"

[Guest dada_rocks]

BS. Right wingers keep harping about Muslims missing from Indian Armed Forces. Heck to them every Muslim is anti-India and needs to be "straightened". If you can not agree to that you are either being ignorant or in denial, or both. Coming to the right wingers and Armed Forces chiefs dumping the divisive plan here is something you shall find interesting DR. General K.M. Cariappa , the first Indian Army Chief, wrote an article, significantly in the Rashtriya Swayamsewak Sangh (RSS) mouthpiece Organiser (August 15, 1964), 17 years after Partition alleging that "(Muslim) loyalty seems to be primarily to Pakistan. This is a crime unpardonable. This is also the impression of a large percentage of non-Muslim intellectuals in India. Here is the root cause for there being a none-too-happy feeling towards Muslims by a large percentage of the majority... . This is understandable." ....... I asked Gen. K.M. Cariappa why Kargil Muslims were not recruited, to which he replied that their loyalty to India was suspect" http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl2021/stories/20031024000707800.htm Please feel free to read it. You can also find similar incidents mentioned on the Indian Defense website. http://www.defenceindia.com/def_common/ethnic_group_recruitment.html xxxx PS: If you personally beleive Muslims in Armed forces are welcome I appreciate that, just showing how right wingers have time and again put Muslims through this "Nationalism" test

They are welcome unfortunately because that's our constitution but I do agree with general their loyalty over-all is suspect and they reenforced that by deserting indian army in heard for their pakistan.. No u are wrong right wingers as I said feel good that muslims are not jooining in india army otherwise god knows what what extent this in-bred terrorism will harm India. We oppose counting of heads based on religion in army and psec/plitically corret ones may think whatever they like but Army knows what works what doesn;t and they are doign just fine. Again it;s totally immaterial who mans army as long as there is no personnel crunch in army i have no interest in those state-wise or caste-wise or religion-wise break-up. To me funding the army is as important perhaps more important in a country like india where llife is cheap unemployment is high than actually joining the army. I have no doubt in my mind if actually joining the army was need of hour Gujjus will do that before anyone else.. They have been prime-mover in independence t movement they have been prime-mover in checking expansion of islamist marauders.. They have been prime-mover in most difficult task after independence whihc is indiustrial growth of india.. They get 100 out of 100.. Meanwhile u guys can keep doing divisive head-counting nobody cares.. India army is well-manned and for every vacancy 1000 show up it hardly matters where from they show up for recruitment..

[Lurker]

. But you had not referred to any "sacrifice " made by any Indian muslim of today, all you had referred to was some event in Karbala 13 centuries back ( in an inter sect Islamic feud in the middle east). Show me the relevance of this to muslims 'sacrifice" in India

Because I had NOT set out to write an article about "sacrifices" of modern Muslims. My article was rather simple, and I am intrigued as to why you dont get it. The angle is this - Hindus know little about Islamic history. Indian Muslims know atleast a bit about Ramayan and Mahabharat, atleast the characters. Check the part where Aamir Khan mentions his desire to play Karna. Hindus on the other hand know little about Islamic history. That is the whole angle.

Yes it is and it is a slap in the face of minority pandering and appeasement, and a slap in the face of "secularism", as defined by Indira gandhi and Co...

So let me get this straight. You are telling me that a citizen of India, no matter how meritorious he is, is NOT going to go to the top because he was born a Muslim. And this is greatness of India and its Secularism? Please confirm that I am not misquoting you. xxx

[Lurker]

They are welcome unfortunately because that's our constitution but I do agree with general their loyalty over-all is suspect and they reenforced that by deserting indian army in heard for their pakistan.. No u are wrong right wingers as I said feel good that muslims are not jooining in india army otherwise god knows what what extent this in-bred terrorism will harm India.

So basically you should quit defending all this - No BJP fans dont question Muslims into Army, we welcome them. You cant be suspicious as well as welcoming.

To me funding the army is as important perhaps more important in a country like india where llife is cheap unemployment is high than actually joining the army.

Hahaha..Now I beleive you are a BJP fan, Baniya Janta Party and all that.

I have no doubt in my mind if actually joining the army was need of hour Gujjus will do that before anyone else.. They have been prime-mover in independence t movement they have been prime-mover in checking expansion of islamist marauders.. They have been prime-mover in most difficult task after independence whihc is indiustrial growth of india..

Give me cold hard numbers. Of 25 states Gujrat did NOT feature in 15! More people from Himachal joined that Gujrat. And of course no PVC either. Give me cold hard numbers, dont give me this "I have no doubt in my mind" bollocks :finger: xxx

[Guest dada_rocks]

Eye-opening indeed KR. Though I would have perhaps been happier had opposite been the case(as in more Gujjus in the Armed Forces). My point basically is rather simple - Why is it NOT anti-India to question Muslim numbers in Indian Armed Forces but very much so when it comes to Gujjus? If I had my way I have an easy solution to this. Just make every damn Indian citizen do mandatory service in Armed Forces for 1-2 years. This will get everyone - Muslim or Gujju - become a part of most disciplined workforce in the country, put everyone through the rigour of nation building without simply mouthing off tall claims, and also get us all in shape(I had to slide in a fitness angle here hehehe). xxx

Again nobody question their numbers rather we right wingers are happy about it that they chose not to join, once bittne twice shy.. Those arrangements of mandatory service if u have cared to look existsin a country where alternative employment opportunities are aplenty and armed forces is facing personnel crunch. India doesn't fit the bill at all . Just let me know any vacancy whihc gets unresponded I am in contact with career=planners I assure u I will send u at leats thousand application.. If not we are basically beating a none-issue.

[Lurker]

Again nobody question their numbers rather we right wingers are happy about it that they chose not to join, once bittne twice shy..

Hahaha you do more U-turns than your mentor Modi. First you say "Muslims are welcome in Indian Armed forces" followed by "I suspect them overall" before landing with a "We are happy they chose not to join". Bina pendi ka lota :hysterical::hysterical:

Just let me know any vacancy whihc gets unresponded I am in contact with career=planners I assure u I will send u at leats thousand application.. If not we are basically beating a none-issue.

Dont worry about yourself, Biharis are falling over each other to join. Sample this. Some states have done well is Bihar, where young men appear eager to enlist. This was tragically demonstrated in Darbhanga and Chapra districts in July 1999, where twenty youths were killed by police firing on a stampede during an army recruitment drive. So yes there is no dearth of Biharis. We are speaking of Gujjus here. Again give me cold hard numbers, not some **** and bull story. xxx

[Guest HariSampath]

Thats a bogus question irrelevant to the article.

No... you referred to Syed Hussain's last battle at Karbala as a "sacrifice"... which I proved otherwise...a logical extension is whether you consider shia/sunni muslims giving up their lives for their own inter muslim sectarian wars as sacrifice ( by that token saddam Hussain would have made a great sacrifice in your books as would so many other suicide bombers in the cause of shias and sunnis)

The article is rather straight forward. Hindus have little knowledge of Islamic history, Indian Muslims on the other hand have a much better knowledge of Hindu culture. Please read up my very first paragraph quoting Munshi Premchand.

I read the Premchand bit....but as to why Indian muslims have a bettter knowledge of Hindu culture, the truth is simple. ALL Indian muslims have ancestral roots in Hinduism, and it is a historic fact that all these muslims are the generational descendants of forced conversions. Also, Indian muslims live in a predominantly Hindu majority nation and due to daily interaction, cultural and religious knowledge is inevitable. Applying the same logic, Indian Hindus living all their lives in Islamic countries will have a LOT better knowledge of muslim culture than the knowledge muslims in those countries possess of Hindu culture...anything surprising ?

Like when? Give me explicit evidence circa 1947.

Population of Hindus in Pakistan at time of partition was 20%. Now it is 2 % .. see the stats of those who converted to Islam in last 60 years. Population of Muslims in India in 1947 and now.... huge growth... see stats on forced conversion to Hinduism...NIL. See stats of muslims in India involved in anti national acts, terrorism, Kashmir support, BD, drug traficking, and all sorts of mass violent terror activities , plus economic offences , smuggling, etc. See the above for Hindus

Also help me understand why should I not consider you some sort of racist for openly admitting Muslims dont deserve a top spot in Indian Armed Forces?

You may consider me racist.... so will Indira Gandhi, Sonia Gandhi and others...I just don't care too hoots.

[Guest dada_rocks]

So basically you should quit defending all this - No BJP fans dont question Muslims into Army, we welcome them. You cant be suspicious as well as welcoming. Hahaha..Now I beleive you are a BJP fan, Baniya Janta Party and all that. Give me cold hard numbers. Of 25 states Gujrat did NOT feature in 15! More people from Himachal joined that Gujrat. And of course no PVC either. Give me cold hard numbers, dont give me this "I have no doubt in my mind" bollocks :finger: xxx

I am not welcoming Iam happy that they do not join.. now can u tell GHeneral KAriapaa why he should change his views other than the PC crap.. I know neither I have first hand experience of defending country nor you but Kariappa has and if he has that opinion then why........ My stance is clear if I had my way I wud bar them from joining but since contitution allows it so I have no other option but I thank them for not joining.. I am not begrudging at all their absence.. That's what is right wing stand.. these guys can't be trusted I do admore samples like Abdul hamid though but that doesn't change the general reality.. Number is your fixation I deal in real problems not fictional.. There is no personnel crunch and hence I don't care about the make-up of army.. As long as an indian is not abetting LeT (your love for those LeT helpers in idnia notwithstanding) or any other anti-national in what capcity he serves India is immaterial for me.. he cud be fighting at border or cleaning $hit in some sulabh Shauchalaya all are appreciated. It;'s just destintiy someone got to serve in one way some in another.. Problem are those who choose to harm India not thhose who serve India in whatever capacity that be.. Try harder u have miserably failed in your attempt of equating a country-lover population with broken-reids who work for anti-national forces.:two_thumbs_up: