quasimodo Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 Re: State of Indian Muslims, Azim Premji and other rants.. Must admit I am somewhat disappointed with MIG's questioning of Premji, and his insistence that Premji should have built an educational institute for followers of his religion. I had attributed him (MIG) with more common sense and etiquette than that. As Doc D (not to be confused with Doc Daneka) says - the essential surmise that MIG is making is that religion is above country - an assumption that most Indians find very counterintuitive, and almost despicable... And there lies your answer O Bhai... This debate can go and on ( and Ariston ) And just because I am sympathetic to the plight of muslims doesnt make me unreasonable. Muslims all over the world and even in my beloved Pakistan, are my concern. Islam is not limited by boundaries ( even though some would like to make it that way) - when we go for Hajj - we dont appear as Pakistanis or Indians - we stand together as Muslims.period. If you understand that, then you can understand my pov. I am not here to undermine India - I am merely pointing out that there IS a problem with Muslims in India. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predator_05 Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 Re: State of Indian Muslims, Azim Premji and other rants.. There always seems to be a problem with Muslims living in ANY non-muslim country. They are just unable to assimilate. I am with Kabira on this one - just give them their own country. The united states of Muslimistan. They will be happy, and the civilized world will be happy as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quasimodo Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 Re: State of Indian Muslims, Azim Premji and other rants.. There always seems to be a problem with Muslims living in ANY non-muslim country. They are just unable to assimilate. I am with Kabira on this one - just give them their own country. The united states of Muslimistan. They will be happy, and the civilized world will be happy as well. Why cant some people make a decent argument to save their lives :wall: Phir wohi bakray kee aik tang....Understand the subject in question, look at the quality of arguments above, analyse and then post Bhaiya ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted November 21, 2006 Author Share Posted November 21, 2006 Re: State of Indian Muslims, Azim Premji and other rants.. If you understand that, then you can understand my pov. I am not here to undermine India - I am merely pointing out that there IS a problem with Muslims in India. Maaf karein Q saab magar hamein aapki baat pe aitbaar nahin hai. I can understand your point of view if your lament was about the "poor" situation of Indian Muslims. Instead what you clearly seem to worry more about is if indeed India offers "equal" rights to all its citizens! You wonder about India's secular fabric and keep harping Muslim Muslim Muslim, isnt that an oxymoron of highest order? I gave you a few reasons as to why Muslims in India may not be doing as good as one would like to. I havent heard from you on that, maybe you can add something there if you are truly interested? I saw you mention Azim Premji and his "zakat". Aisa hai Q saheb ke Azim Premjis company WIPRO employs about 62,000 employees. I am pretty sure there would be about 5-10,000 Muslims in there. Let me wear your cynical glasses and see Muslims being "persecuted" in India. So I would say only 500 employee out of 62,000 workforce of Wipro is Muslim. Fair? Now can you tell me if there is a bigger zakat than feeding 500 families year around?? By the way I saw you shoot down names like Abul Kalaam(symbolic role of President), Azim Premji(what has he done for the Muslims), SRK(naach gaana) etc. To bare miyaan ab yeh batayein ke kya aapko Patna ke Kankarbagh mein jo Nawaab saheb rehte hain 4 manjile imaraat mein unki misaal di jaaye?? Boss people will only mention names everyone knows of. By the way I am not taking a pot-shot at you here for writing something somewhere else, I registered at your site but havent been allowed to post yet. xxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vroomfondel Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 Re: State of Indian Muslims, Azim Premji and other rants.. bumps said: A nation captures lot more of the commonality of the men it constitutes. Its a healthy union. Religion does the opposite, it simply segregates men, from the rest. To me, a nation is about unity, religion is about divide. As simple as that! very nicely put bumper. I will expound with empty words and say nothign new: The nation-state organizes on the basis of common history and common aspirations. _Ideally_, your nation and it's values come from years of majority-minority debate within, and what is projected without is the essence of the beliefs of the populace. Especially so with democracies. "ideally" -- there are of course countries with dictators. Unfortunately, the human race is not evolved (can i say that in a religion thread?) enough to consider our entire lot to have 'common' history and aspirations -- so it is difficult for an american to identify with an indian on that humane basis. Hence the need for nationhood. It is admittedly contrived, but very practical as long as the rights and duties are not at odds with 'human' rights. ...unfortunately, I can't say the same for religion: where members of other 'schools of thought' are considered sub-human. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer1 Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 Re: State of Indian Muslims, Azim Premji and other rants.. And there lies your answer O Bhai...And just because I am sympathetic to the plight of muslims doesnt make me unreasonable.Muslims all over the world and even in my beloved Pakistan, are my concern.If you understand that, then you can understand my pov. I am not here to undermine India - I am merely pointing out that there IS a problem with Muslims in India. I dont think being sympathetic to someone's plight makes you unreasonable QM - no problem with that. I have a problem with the stuff I have italicised. Again, your perception that there is a problem with a community in India is your POV - to quote Voltaire, I disagree with you, but defend your right to make that statement. However, what I, and I suspect most posters here find disconcerting was the insinuation that Premji is somehow an inferior human because he has not built educational institutions pandering specifically to his religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beetle Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 Re: State of Indian Muslims, Azim Premji and other rants.. And - Wow - the Azim Premji post- the perfect Muslim.... wonder why he doesnt donate some of his hard earned money to uplifting the Muslims in his area ? Maybe that is the problem with Muslims in India - they have people like Azim ( who have enough money to buy the likes of Pakistan etc ) >>>>This one paragraph explains why the so called Islamic world is in this state..... Well mr.MIG....may be he considers himself a human first and a muslim later... He is providing employment to thousands of people and if it is not accaptable as charitable case than what is...? he is putting food in the mouths of people with dignity. Why he does it for people of other religion and not just for muslims...? Well if his thinking was similar to yours ...he would have migrated to pak ...no?? PS...excellent post lurker.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tendulkar Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 Re: State of Indian Muslims, Azim Premji and other rants.. To an Indian, MIG's statement might seem utterly ridiculous. Yet, we have to ask ourselves, he is an intelligent guy. Why does, he and so many other educated Muslims in Pakistan think this way? The answer of course is that MIG and many other Muslims view Islam much as we view India. As an entitity that commands utter loyalty. To an Indian, disloyalty to India from a fellow Indian is utterly reprehensible. Now just replace "India" with "Muslims". Just to illustrate, we'd be up in arms if Azim lavished money preferentially on Muslims the world over because they were his "brothers". Similarly, MIG and others see him not as an Indian, but as a Muslim that should uplift his fellow Muslims. This concept is to so difficult for us to understand. Never the twain shall meet. Totally disagaree. Indians do not have blind patriotism and loyalty to India. We constantly criticse India and things inside it and how it is. This is exemplified by the media which is always criticising both constructive and unnconstructive. Yes we are loyal but only to a certain degree. Unlike Islam which has blind faith and loyalty and no criricism of their bizzare cult. And if they do criticise then death be upon them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Tendulkar Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 Re: State of Indian Muslims, Azim Premji and other rants.. Why this obsession with Pakistan ? And - Wow - the Azim Premji post- the perfect Muslim.... wonder why he doesnt donate some of his hard earned money to uplifting the Muslims in his area ? Maybe that is the problem with Muslims in India - they have people like Azim ( who have enough money to buy the likes of Pakistan etc ) If he could just set aside say half of his wealth to setting up scholarship funds for Muslims, IIT type institutions etc - The whole Muslim world will thank him. Azim Premji - a great IT entreprenuer - a Muslim ? Well his zakat alone would have take care of a few million Muslim households... What a shocking post. Sums up the problem with muslims. Fack everyone else just worry about the muslim world. Don't worry about the rest of humanity. Just re confirms my opinion of followers of this religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bumper Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 Re: State of Indian Muslims, Azim Premji and other rants.. Must admit I am somewhat disappointed with MIG's questioning of Premji, and his insistence that Premji should have built an educational institute for followers of his religion. I had attributed him (MIG) with more common sense and etiquette than that. As Doc D (not to be confused with Doc Daneka) says - the essential surmise that MIG is making is that religion is above country - an assumption that most Indians find very counterintuitive, and almost despicable... Muslims all over the world and even in my beloved Pakistan, are my concern. Islam is not limited by boundaries ( even though some would like to make it that way) - when we go for Hajj - we dont appear as Pakistanis or Indians - we stand together as Muslims.period. If you understand that, then you can understand my pov. I am not here to undermine India - I am merely pointing out that there IS a problem with Muslims in India. Is this an affirmative corroboration of Dhondy's theory about Muslims ? If yes and Muslims infact place fellow Muslims above their own nation, can u tell me if u will support Zaheer, Irfan, Munaf over Danish Kaneria, MoYo (before conversion) when the respective countries go at each other ? If not, why not ? Why does nation become the entity of association all of a sudden ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quasimodo Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 Re: State of Indian Muslims, Azim Premji and other rants.. Must admit I am somewhat disappointed with MIG's questioning of Premji, and his insistence that Premji should have built an educational institute for followers of his religion. I had attributed him (MIG) with more common sense and etiquette than that. As Doc D (not to be confused with Doc Daneka) says - the essential surmise that MIG is making is that religion is above country - an assumption that most Indians find very counterintuitive, and almost despicable... Muslims all over the world and even in my beloved Pakistan, are my concern. Islam is not limited by boundaries ( even though some would like to make it that way) - when we go for Hajj - we dont appear as Pakistanis or Indians - we stand together as Muslims.period. If you understand that, then you can understand my pov. I am not here to undermine India - I am merely pointing out that there IS a problem with Muslims in India. Is this an affirmative corroboration of Dhondy's theory about Muslims ? If yes and Muslims infact place fellow Muslims above their own nation, can u tell me if u will support Zaheer, Irfan, Munaf over Danish Kaneria, MoYo (before conversion) when the respective countries go at each other ? If not, why not ? Why does nation become the entity of association all of a sudden ? As you know, Cricket is a GAME! Even in Pakistan, when 2 muslim teams play - people have favourites! Personally speaking, as a Muslim, I am proud of people like Pathan and Munaf for making it to the big scene - Inshallah, they will do better and better. If ALLAH wills that their best performances are against Pak - so be it - no one can stop that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted November 21, 2006 Author Share Posted November 21, 2006 Re: State of Indian Muslims, Azim Premji and other rants.. Qausimodo, Let me end my side of the discussion with some opinions, thoughts and observation. 1) I don't buy all this talk about religion above country for Muslims. Chaliye main aapko aaina dikha doon. You are related to one of the largest Pakistani websites. Now can you tell me when was the last time the success of an Indian Muslim was celebrated there? Am I wrong in suggesting that on most Pakistani websites it is obvious that Indian Muslims are more ridiculed than welcomed? Here are some gems I read routinely on your website: Indian Muslims are not Muslims. Indian Muslims have to dilute their deen to become popular in India. Indian Muslims are more Bharatwaasis than Hindus. Irfan is known as "Fake Pathan". Abul Kalaam is known as cardboard President, Zakir Hussain and FA Ahmed are known as symbolic poster child, SRK is the mujrewaala. And you expect me to beleive people have interest of Indian Muslims at heart? Who are you kidding Sir? I would say 7-8 times out of 10 I have seen Indian Muslim criticized rather than getting complimented. Am I wrong there? 2) Azim Premji is the richest Muslim in the world today. That is if you exclude the Sultan of Saudia who obviously inherited his money. Please see the complete list here. http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/10/Worth_1.html So let us get this straight - the richest amongst the beleivers of the 1.5 billion Ummah comes from the Hindustan. And yet you are the one that has issues with India's Secular fabric? Khair I shall end it there. I hope I have clarified some of your misconceptions about Indian Muslims. It wasnt my motive to show Pakistan, or your website in bad light, just that sometimes examples can show what thousand of pages wont. xxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bumper Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 Re: State of Indian Muslims, Azim Premji and other rants.. Must admit I am somewhat disappointed with MIG's questioning of Premji, and his insistence that Premji should have built an educational institute for followers of his religion. I had attributed him (MIG) with more common sense and etiquette than that. As Doc D (not to be confused with Doc Daneka) says - the essential surmise that MIG is making is that religion is above country - an assumption that most Indians find very counterintuitive, and almost despicable... Muslims all over the world and even in my beloved Pakistan, are my concern. Islam is not limited by boundaries ( even though some would like to make it that way) - when we go for Hajj - we dont appear as Pakistanis or Indians - we stand together as Muslims.period. If you understand that, then you can understand my pov. I am not here to undermine India - I am merely pointing out that there IS a problem with Muslims in India. Is this an affirmative corroboration of Dhondy's theory about Muslims ? If yes and Muslims infact place fellow Muslims above their own nation, can u tell me if u will support Zaheer, Irfan, Munaf over Danish Kaneria, MoYo (before conversion) when the respective countries go at each other ? If not, why not ? Why does nation become the entity of association all of a sudden ? As you know, Cricket is a GAME! Even in Pakistan, when 2 muslim teams play - people have favourites! Personally speaking, as a Muslim, I am proud of people like Pathan and Munaf for making it to the big scene - Inshallah, they will do better and better. If ALLAH wills that their best performances are against Pak - so be it - no one can stop that. GAME or no GAME, the debate is about entities of association as seen by Muslims and the rest of the world. At the end of the day, we all support one team over the other in a game, based on how we associate ourselves. Not sure, what to make of your post. U seem to agree nation prevails over religion, which is what am driving at. I'd suggest u be consistent and apply this logic to all your posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kabira Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 Re: State of Indian Muslims, Azim Premji and other rants.. OK you only worry about Muslims...but why kill and rape infidels... here is report on ethnic cleansing happening in Bangladesh and entire world is silent about it http://ia.rediff.com/news/2006/nov/21rights.htm?q=np&file=.htm A silent genocide is taking place in Bangladesh Krishnakumar in Mumbai | November 21, 2006 22:11 IST A Buddhist monk, a Christian, a Muslim and a Hindu from various parts of Bangladesh came together in India to highlight the plight of the minorities in the Islamic country. In Mumbai to attend a conference on the persecution of minorities in Bangladesh and Kashmir on Monday, the human rights activists painted a scary picture about the plight of the minorities. Torture, rape and murder are almost everyday occurrences for the minorities. Apart from violence, the other ways that the establishment and other militant organizations make life tough for the minorities are by cutting off opportunities in the public sector and by denying voting rights. "For some minority people, getting voting rights is impossible. Some who have voting rights are not allowed to vote even if they muster the courage to go to the polling booths. Voters are threatened inside the polling booth, ballot boxes disappear the day before counting, numbers change from nowhere on the day of the results. Anything can happen," says Rosaline Costa, a human rights activist. Backing their claims, the activists gave proof of the atrocities committed by the militant organisations, showing photographs of victims and testimonies of unspeakable violence and torture. Speaking about the injustice meted out to the indigenous people of the Bangladesh's largely Buddhist Chittagong Hill Tracts, Dr Prajnalankar Bhikku said: "The security forces and the state mechanism have virtually wiped the indigenous people out of the hills of Chittagong. They have committed serious human rights violations and have changed the very social fabric of the Chittagong hill tracts" Alleging that militant organisations were involved in a large number of rapes and murders in the region, Bhikku said: "A silent genocide and ethnic cleansing is taking place in the hills of Bangladesh without the knowledge of the outside world." He said though Bangladesh is constitutionally a Republic, it recognises only Islam as State religion and only Bangla as the State language. "The Republic is practically an institution of one ethnic group, one language and one religion. It treats all non-Muslims minority communities as either Bengali Muslims or infidels," he said. About the plight of other minorities, Aroma Dutta, who runs a non-government organisation for the betterment of the rural populations, says: "The rise of extremism is evident. Studies have indicated that in the past five years, under the present rule, rape has not only increased, it has almost become an epidemic. Islamic militant organisations have extended their tentacles to the remotest parts isolated areas." Agreeing with Aroma's observation, Costa says that since the present government took over, minorities had gone through hell. "The ethnic cleansing is out in the open. There are forced conversions. Extortion from the minorities is on the rise. They are harassed by the banks," she says. "Despite the harassment, minorities are mostly better off than the others," Costa says, adding: "In most pockets, the minorities are interdependent on each other. Most minority children go to schools run by NGOs and Christian schools. Most have their own small businesses. But even such people live in constant fear." Journalist and activist Shahriar Kabir cites the rise of the militant organizations as the reason. "Today, there are more than a 100 such militant organisations. On August 17, as a show of strength, they exploded 500 bombs across the nation. On that day, not district of Bangladesh was spared. Though the bombs were all low intensity and the body was not high, it showed how well organised the outfits are," he says. There are only a few ways in which the current situation can be changed, Kabir says. Urging the West to interfere, he says the United States must alter course and shun its double standards. "On the one hand, the West asks (Pakistan President) General Pervez Musharraf to take action against fundamentalists in that country. On the other, it supports the four-party fundamentalist coalition in Bangladesh.The United States and other nations must ask Pakistan and Saudi Arabia to stop funding these fundamentalist organizations," he observes. Kabir also warns that if the international community delays its action, things may be too late. "These outfits are spreading far and fast. They have vast regional and global networks. They have a presence in Kashmir and even other parts of India. They are present not just in Pakistan, but also in Afghanistan. It is very dangerous," he concludes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quasimodo Posted November 22, 2006 Share Posted November 22, 2006 Re: State of Indian Muslims, Azim Premji and other rants.. OK you only worry about Muslims...but why kill and rape infidels... here is report on ethnic cleansing happening in Bangladesh and entire world is silent about it http://ia.rediff.com/news/2006/nov/21rights.htm?q=np&file=.htm A silent genocide is taking place in Bangladesh . If what is written above is true - then I totally condemn people who carry out these atrocities. They are misguided by their understanding of Islam and a place in HELLfire awaits them - that much is clear. But this applies to all wrongdoers. Unfortunately, if these things are not highlighted in the media - no one takes notice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quasimodo Posted November 22, 2006 Share Posted November 22, 2006 Re: State of Indian Muslims, Azim Premji and other rants.. Must admit I am somewhat disappointed with MIG's questioning of Premji, and his insistence that Premji should have built an educational institute for followers of his religion. I had attributed him (MIG) with more common sense and etiquette than that. As Doc D (not to be confused with Doc Daneka) says - the essential surmise that MIG is making is that religion is above country - an assumption that most Indians find very counterintuitive, and almost despicable... Muslims all over the world and even in my beloved Pakistan, are my concern. Islam is not limited by boundaries ( even though some would like to make it that way) - when we go for Hajj - we dont appear as Pakistanis or Indians - we stand together as Muslims.period. If you understand that, then you can understand my pov. I am not here to undermine India - I am merely pointing out that there IS a problem with Muslims in India. Is this an affirmative corroboration of Dhondy's theory about Muslims ? If yes and Muslims infact place fellow Muslims above their own nation, can u tell me if u will support Zaheer, Irfan, Munaf over Danish Kaneria, MoYo (before conversion) when the respective countries go at each other ? If not, why not ? Why does nation become the entity of association all of a sudden ? As you know, Cricket is a GAME! Even in Pakistan, when 2 muslim teams play - people have favourites! Personally speaking, as a Muslim, I am proud of people like Pathan and Munaf for making it to the big scene - Inshallah, they will do better and better. If ALLAH wills that their best performances are against Pak - so be it - no one can stop that. GAME or no GAME, the debate is about entities of association as seen by Muslims and the rest of the world. At the end of the day, we all support one team over the other in a game, based on how we associate ourselves. Not sure, what to make of your post. U seem to agree nation prevails over religion, which is what am driving at. I'd suggest u be consistent and apply this logic to all your posts. I dont see what is so strange about saying that I will support a team that I KNOW well in sports - but in life, ie not sports, I will support ALL Muslims? Is this your version of the Norman Tebbit test ? ie if you dont support Pakistan, you arent a Muslim or vice versa ? Sorry - I dont subscribe to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaurav Posted November 22, 2006 Share Posted November 22, 2006 Re: State of Indian Muslims, Azim Premji and other rants.. You and your F@kin misunderstanding of Islam! What is there to misunderstand about (edit:GKD please don't use such language about a religious icon in future. Thanks -Gambit) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anakin Posted November 22, 2006 Share Posted November 22, 2006 Re: State of Indian Muslims, Azim Premji and other rants.. That's called brainwashing GKD. It's pathetic that few people will believe anything rather than think a bit for themselves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bumper Posted November 22, 2006 Share Posted November 22, 2006 Re: State of Indian Muslims, Azim Premji and other rants.. You and your F@kin misunderstanding of Islam! What is there to misunderstand about Edit: Replaced with edited post by shwetabh GKD, no abuse please. Please voice your opinions in a civil manner. We want to be fair to all posters. Please edit your post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quasimodo Posted November 22, 2006 Share Posted November 22, 2006 Re: State of Indian Muslims, Azim Premji and other rants.. You and your F@kin misunderstanding of Islam! What is there to misunderstand about Replaced with edited post by shwetabh Shame on me ? Bohat Khoob. As they say in URDU, Ghaday ko zafraan kee kiya qadar. Dhondy - can you pls create a debate masterclass and give these chaps a lesson in manners and debate ? or are they beyond help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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