TOP 5 all rounders of all time

[rtmohanlal]

1 hour ago, gazza said:

 

 

thing is when others bring up valid points against kapil you simply side step the point and say you've already given your opinion. I think if your logic was so sound and fair you wouldn't do that, rather you'd address issues with kapil's record that are brought up and like I've already said you'd also give extra points to other allrounders.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You accuse me for side stepping which is far from true. For instance I would take that Hadlee's support bowling strength case about which you enquired. I had already given the below  set of paras as the answer.Infact I am posting   "Perhaps I  can't recall the instance .......  even more credit  in my book."  for the 3rd time here.From this you could have easliy assumed as to what i think of Hadlee's support bowling .

Yet you keep on repeating the same.What should i do ?. Similarly I have given all my justifications for my claiming thru various posts of mine.

Nothing more to pen .....it is really tiring to repeat all those again & again..

 

 

this was my previous msg: w.r.t Hadlee

 

Perhaps I  can't recall the instance of Hadlee stating 'tampering should be legal' or I am hearing this for the first time. Any way if it has to be believed, then this indicates to one more thing.  Hadlee too was guilty of  involving in this  illegal exercise at least in minimal levels when compared to Imran.Other wise, if he was cent percent saint in this matter, he would have vehemently  opposed to such an unethical matter.That is just psychological.  In the late 70s & early 80s there were a handful of  world class bowlers in Lillee, Thompson,Hadlee,Imran,Wasim,Kapil, Bohtam ,Willis,Underwood,Marshall,Roberts,Holding,Garner,Clarke,,Walsh etc etc. Of these the only one bowler who played a lot 86 tests,with out any bowling support & yet ended up with an ATG average of 22.31 was Hadlee. I often wondered about how a bowler could end up that good against such a load of adversities and marvel about his quality as abowler. Now that I come to realise this statement of  his, I am forced to firmly believe that he too had his fair share of this evil .That inturn raises the esteem of both Kapil & Botham in my mind even more.Kapil was clean w.r.t this factor.Botham too,  despite having  issues w.r.t some drugs discipline etc etc was clean in this matter .So both gets even more credit  in my book.

 

Either the above said matter w.r.t  Hadlee was true in all high probablity. Or in the least probablity , it might be that Hadlee was such a great bowler.          

 

On a side note, I still remember  Viv Richards providing a statement  in the lines of 'modern day batsmen are not men enough not to wear helmets' or some thing like that.That is what pure innocence can do from a 'psychological' point of view.In his mind Viv was crystal clear that he didn't wear helmet almost all thru out his career.That confidence  of being so sure in his mind  w.r.t the  matter tempted Viv to create such a bold statement.Similarly had Hadlee been 100%  confident of being innocent w.r.t tampering, he would  so boldly & strongly have opposed tampering  as unethical.

[rtmohanlal]

54 minutes ago, gazza said:

Another example. Kapil gets points for being injured and not resting so obviously it must mean he got less wickets and it was tougher on him so it ruined his stats.

 

well miller played injured, so he often wasn't fully fit but still played, this would have affected both his bowling and batting performances but has he been given credit for that? Nope, for miller he's not as good because his wickets per match isn't up there. Well of course it isn't, he was injured half the time so struggled and/or couldn't actually bowl the overs.

 

truth is kapil's wickets per match isn't that much better than miller's. Kapil got 3.3 wpm, miller 3 wpm. So they both struggled with injury but kapil gets points for it but miller loses points...

Playing just 55 tests in over 10 years  & 5 months is  a lot less work density when compared to   playing 62 tests in just 5 years & 5 months like Kapil did. And in his  cricinfo details, i don't find any of  Miller's injury details apart in one series related to some back disc problem .

 

[rtmohanlal]

37 minutes ago, gazza said:

Patterson wasn't great he was 86 onwards. gray has a great record, not sure how he did in certain matches but he only played 5 tests averaging 17, played 25 ODIs averaging 19. 

A bowler who played only 5 tests in his career a great one? Hope you are not kidding.In that particular series he would have been great.That's all.

[gazza]

19 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

A bowler who played only 5 tests in his career a great one? Hope you are not kidding.In that particular series he would have been great.That's all.

Maybe you didn't read my post properly. I didn't say he was great, I said he had a great record, which is true albeit it short his record is his record. But no I am not suggesting he is a great.

[gazza]

32 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

Playing just 55 tests in over 10 years  & 5 months is  a lot less work density when compared to   playing 62 tests in just 5 years & 5 months like Kapil did. And in his  cricinfo details, i don't find any of  Miller's injury details apart in one series related to some back disc problem .

 

Perhaps you need to do more research. Miller hurt his back in 1943/44 he had a recurring back issue his entire test career. To still manage what he managed in test cricket was spectacular. 

 

Miller also missed some really good cricketing years due to the war.

[rtmohanlal]

40 minutes ago, gazza said:

Perhaps you need to do more research. Miller hurt his back in 1943/44 he had a recurring back issue his entire test career. To still manage what he managed in test cricket was spectacular. 

 

Miller also missed some really good cricketing years due to the war.

Agreed  that fact about the injury which I am hearing for the first time. But the other factors  like work density,support bowling strength ,longevity, unproven track record in alien conditions, untested  in more than one format etc etc still stands in Miller-Kapil comparisons.

[gazza]

22 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

Agreed  that fact about the injury which I am hearing for the first time. But the other factors  like work density,support bowling strength ,longevity, unproven track record in alien conditions, untested  in more than one format etc etc still stands in Miller-Kapil comparisons.

playing less matches over a period of time can have its disadvantages to. Not really fair to Miller that they played less test matches back then and it's being held against him, he only missed 2 test matches in his career (over his career span Australia played 57 tests, Keith played in 55 of them). I think it's exceptionally unfair to hold the alien conditions issue against players of millers time and earlier because that is not their fault and a player can only play in the conditions offered to them and against opposition given to them. Also more than one format etc etc, that's one reason why it's better to seperate formats, again, it's not millers fault ODIs didn't exist in his time. Kapil didn't play t20s, therefore by this logic he can never be placed above anyone who has played t20s.

[rtmohanlal]

1 hour ago, gazza said:

playing less matches over a period of time can have its disadvantages to. Not really fair to Miller that they played less test matches back then and it's being held against him, he only missed 2 test matches in his career (over his career span Australia played 57 tests, Keith played in 55 of them). I think it's exceptionally unfair to hold the alien conditions issue against players of millers time and earlier because that is not their fault and a player can only play in the conditions offered to them and against opposition given to them. Also more than one format etc etc, that's one reason why it's better to seperate formats, again, it's not millers fault ODIs didn't exist in his time. Kapil didn't play t20s, therefore by this logic he can never be placed above anyone who has played t20s.

Who said these are 'faults' of Miller?Its just that I consider a proven player  over an unproven player.

This because history  of the game is testimony to several players who were/are in two opposite ends based on comfort zones.For instance the likes of Sehwag,Warner,Mahela,Pujara,Kumble,Ashwin,Vaas,Lillee ,James Anderson,Harbhajan,Ntini,Herath,Boon,Justin Langer etc etc were far 

better in their comfort zones when compared to alien conditions. Similarly players like Ashwin,Pujara,Rahane,Yuvraj Singh,Rohit sharma,Dhawan,Misbah,Younis khan,Walsh,Bevan,Langer,Maxwell,Afridi ,Brett lee,Walsh etc etc proves how difficult it is to maintain standards over formats.Similarly I can give you a lot more no: of names .Based on these strong evidences I am proned to pick  a proven player over an unproven one.  

Edited July 8, 2017 by rtmohanlal

[Tattieboy]

58 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

Who said these are 'faults' of Miller?Its just that I consider a proven player  over an unproven player.

This because history  of the game is testimony to several players who were/are in two opposite ends based on comfort zones.For instance the likes of Sehwag,Warner,Mahela,Pujara,Kumble,Ashwin,Vaas,Lillee ,James Anderson,Harbhajan,Ntini,Herath,Boon,Justin Langer etc etc were far 

better in their comfort zones when compared to alien conditions. Similarly players like Ashwin,Pujara,Rahane,Yuvraj Singh,Rohit sharma,Dhawan,Misbah,Younis khan,Walsh,Bevan,Langer,Maxwell,Afridi ,Brett lee,Walsh etc etc proves how difficult it is to maintain standards over formats.Similarly I can give you a lot more no: of names .Based on these strong evidences I am proned to pick  a proven player over an unproven one.  

Is Virat Kohli a comfort zone player?

[rtmohanlal]

9 minutes ago, Tattieboy said:

Is Virat Kohli a comfort zone player?

Virat needs to rectify his '13' avg: in ENG.That is not enough .It would be ok if he can lift that up to about at least 28  eventually.Just like Ponting who avg:ed only 25 in IND, but  still a great player because he ticked  all other boxes.Ponting's  record in other sub continental countries are really good. So too is Virat in other alien countries bar ENG. 

[Tattieboy]

8 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

Virat needs to rectify his '13' avg: in ENG.That is not enough .It would be ok if he can lift that up to about at least 28  eventually.Just like Ponting who avg:ed only 25 in IND, but  still a great player because he ticked  all other boxes.Ponting's  record in other sub continental countries are really good. So too is Virat in other alien countries bar ENG. 

My opinion is that if one of your comfort zone players Justin Langer who scored a century in every test playing country except India then Virat Kohli who hasnt scored a century in two is definatley a comfort zone player.....just saying