THX_1138 Posted June 30, 2008 Posted June 30, 2008 Hello Domaink, Sorry if this comes across as harsh, but as far as I have researched ( did a lot for some personal reasons), the underlying science ( if we can call it that) in homeopathy has severe gaps. Editor of New England Journal of Medicine and host of The Skeptic's Guide to the Universe: Dr. Steve Novella (a neurosurgeon of some repute) has spoken extensively about how bogus homeopathy is. run a search on the web and you can find myraids of articles he has published and numerous discussions he has participated in on this subject (if you have not already, that is).
THX_1138 Posted June 30, 2008 Posted June 30, 2008 So u accept u passed your verdict without knowing anything about it. Having put that behind for starter search three words on google put together; (Ayurveda turmeric alzheimer)..Once you have done enough reading on this let me know I will provide another tab.. It has detailed description of surgery documented at the time when those whose medical Journals you are trumpeting today were hanging from the trees like buffon.. So some credit is long overdue... Search for the words like Sushrut, Charak and see for yourself how ignorant your smart alec comment was. In fact even yoga whose benefits are being raved about today well basically is a sister science of ayurveda i think you misunderstood me... i am not admiting that i passed my verdict without knowing... that would be contrary to the fundamentals of science that i live by. what i said is that i do not know of any peer reviewed article published in favor of ayurvedic medicine which beckons: "if indeed ayurvedic medicine is the holy grail that some make it to be, how come not one student of this science has been resourceful enough to demonstrate the effectiveness of one of these medicines?" and one simple observation: if ayurvedic medicine is really that effective, how come the life expectancies have universally increased inspite of exploding populations since the invention of antibiotics? hell... how many diseases have been cured by ayurvedic medicine? Polio? nah that was contemporary medicine; Small Pox? nah not that either... what about Plague? shucks... 0 in 3 so far and i dont even have a medical encyclopaedia at hand...
THX_1138 Posted June 30, 2008 Posted June 30, 2008 I have thanks anyways though. like minded gentleman eh! glad to make your acquaintance... one can often be lost at this forum amongst empty trumpeters and svengalis.
THX_1138 Posted June 30, 2008 Posted June 30, 2008 let me give him same test which i gave to CC the scripture expert..:--D can u translate "Main aam kha raha hun in sanskrit." If not then u sud keep ur mouth shut on texts which is written in that langauge.. can you translate "The Theory of Relativity was published in German, but not every physicst speaks German, so use what we call 'translations' to study this" into Bantu?
THX_1138 Posted June 30, 2008 Posted June 30, 2008 So u accept u passed your verdict without knowing anything about it. Having put that behind for starter search three words on google put together; (Ayurveda turmeric alzheimer)..Once you have done enough reading on this let me know I will provide another tab.. It has detailed description of surgery documented at the time when those whose medical Journals you are trumpeting today were hanging from the trees like buffon.. So some credit is long overdue... Search for the words like Sushrut, Charak and see for yourself how ignorant your smart alec comment was. In fact even yoga whose benefits are being raved about today well basically is a sister science of ayurveda the first result was www.ayurnepal.com and there were some claims about research done in the field of ayurvedic medicine. the first three results lead to nowhere. one of the research: "a clinical study of bronchial asthama with ayurvedic medicines" seems quite defunct. spelling mistakes not withstanding, the study did not reveal the chemical composition of the medicine involved, did not list the motivation for the use of this particular medicine other than "as stated in the scripture" (which scripture?), did not have a placebo (glaring error, which is indispensable for a single blind study), did not eliminate observer bias (hence not a double blind study either), and hence, the voracity of the medicine is still unverified. the study did not compare the medicine in effectiveness to antibiotic medicine, or quite frankly plain water with a spoonful of sugar. so far DR, you are not making a very credible case for ayurvedic medicine, please look into this.
Lurker Posted June 30, 2008 Posted June 30, 2008 wow... that was quite vindictive... i am aware that Ayurvedic and Homeopathy are recognized as authentic fields of medicine in India, and little elsewhere... that not withstanding, i feel that if Ayurvedic medicine has some applications in contemporary science, in an age of molecule sequencers, could you guys please point me to certain medical journals that have highlighted their voracity? i know that there are no articles in the New England Journal of Medicine that uphold ayurvedic medicine, but i am assuming there are medical journals published in india which highlight their effectiveness. so do list a few peer reviewed articles or research papers done in the field of ayurvedic medicine. while i feel that none such exist, i dont quite have access to some of the literature you guys might have read and based your judgement on, so enlighten me. Actually THX there are quite a bit of proven research in the area. Speaking exclusively from a Fitness perspective I would say Ayurveda is hugely popular amongst the health nuts. The reason why you may not see too much of coverage about this is simply because the big Pharma giants refuse to acknowledge the billion dollar health industry and FDA is also happy to oblige. (This will take me towards whole Anti-Drug rant but thats for another story). Let me give you a few examples(for health nuts): 1) A lot of heavy lifters use Anabolic Steroids, Testosterone boosters, Dieuretics etc. Generally they run cycles of 8-10 weeks and then take 4-6 weeks off. The idea is to let the body recover. During this "recovery" phase they would keep away from drugs and cleanse their systems thru Liv52(made by Himalaya drugs, rooted in Ayurveda and for betterment of lever) and Fenugreek( a natural test booster). In fact I had wrote something similar quite a few months back. You may want to check out. Slightly different to the topic started by Shehzaada but I thought I would share something that perhaps many of you may not be aware. Okay so I am a bit of a health nut. The kind that drags his ar to the gym everyday and takes health supplements. A very interesting thing that I have observed recently is that the Western Health Supplement Industry is slowly turning towards East. Many of the latest development, if not most, have roots in India. A few shall suffice. 1) A good fat burner these days is Sesamine, basically seeds of sesame or sesame oil extracted out of it. Now if you are from Northern India, specially UP/Bihar, you would realize that sesame seeds are used widely to make sweets. In Gaya, my hometown, tilkoot(a delicacy made of sesame and sugar) is greatly popular. The odd thing is that Gaya folks, no matter how much tilkoot they consume, dont get too fat. This is basically because sesame seeds stimulate your metabolism, act as a healthy fat and ensures you dont pack on weight. For 15 years I ate tilkoot and now I realize how it worked. 2) The latest protein fad in the West is now soy/pea protein. Even though Whey and Casein remain the most popular protein(both derivatives of milk) soy/pea protein are fast breaking ground. The only thing that holds them back is that they are supposed to assist in endrogen receptor production, a thingy that leads to Man Boobs. The day scientist can take care of it soy/pea protein shall rock, since they are high on Amino Acid content as also much cheaper. 3) The best post-workout eating habit suggested these days is to consume simple fast digesting sugar with some protein with high Amino Acid content. The way gym rats do is by consuming Glucose/Dextrose/Maltodextrin/WaxyMaize alongwith Whey Protein. Before the supplement industry came along an Indian akhaara would have people consume channa(lentil) and gud(jaggery) before and after workout. The former is a complex protein while the latter is simple sugar. A solid protein/carb combo..and you perhaps thought channa/gud was for horses! There are many more such instances that I wouldnt bore you with. My point is that we have had all these things with us but never realized it. It is fantastic to know that culturally we have such an enriched heritage. It is equally fascinating to note that Western world has been able to give the reasoning behind it.
THX_1138 Posted June 30, 2008 Posted June 30, 2008 Actually THX there are quite a bit of proven research in the area. Speaking exclusively from a Fitness perspective I would say Ayurveda is hugely popular amongst the health nuts. The reason why you may not see too much of coverage about this is simply because the big Pharma giants refuse to acknowledge the billion dollar health industry and FDA is also happy to oblige. (This will take me towards whole Anti-Drug rant but thats for another story). Let me give you a few examples(for health nuts): 1) A lot of heavy lifters use Anabolic Steroids, Testosterone boosters, Dieuretics etc. Generally they run cycles of 8-10 weeks and then take 4-6 weeks off. The idea is to let the body recover. During this "recovery" phase they would keep away from drugs and cleanse their systems thru Liv52(made by Himalaya drugs, rooted in Ayurveda and for betterment of lever) and Fenugreek( a natural test booster). In fact I had wrote something similar quite a few months back. You may want to check out. Lurker can you list some of this research? and Journal Editorials are not influenced by Pharmaseutical companies as one mine be tempted to believe. If indeed "big pharma" is to blame for this repressed science, how come there are no independent Ayurvedic Journal Medicine? as i pointed out in my last post, the one research study posted at the site that i reached from the directions provided by DR, the study was horrendously done and quite defunct! And quite frankly, dont you suppose that if ayurvedic medicine was as effective as it is made out to be, it represents a considerable economic insentive for this pharamseutical companies to capitalize upon?
Lurker Posted June 30, 2008 Posted June 30, 2008 Lurker can you list some of this research? and Journal Editorials are not influenced by Pharmaseutical companies as one mine be tempted to believe. If indeed "big pharma" is to blame for this repressed science, how come there are no independent Ayurvedic Journal Medicine? I sure can. My only issue would be that most of this research that I say is often mentioned in the Fitness magazines I read. I have no reasons to read New England Journal of Medicine so I can not quote them but I will try to quote from multiple magazines later(at work right now but will surely look up). And quite frankly, dont you suppose that if ayurvedic medicine was as effective as it is made out to be, it represents a considerable economic insentive for this pharamseutical companies to capitalize upon? They already do, dont they? Take for example the ancient Indian way of beating cholestrol, chewing raw Garlic. Today you have Garlique which is popular enough in the West to have regular ads on TV and other media outlets.
kumble_rocks Posted June 30, 2008 Posted June 30, 2008 The simple fact that fruits and vegetables have nutrient value associated with them should be enough to debunk any naysayers who think Ayurveda is junk science. Their is scientific basis to classify certain fruits as "Super fruits" based on antioxidant content and other important nutrients. For example , Tomato(although not classified as super fruit) contains Lycopene which is a bright red carotenoid pigment and phytochemical which actually helps maintain prostate health. Another example would be blue berries and cranberries . These are anti-oxidant high fruits which have medically proven health benefits in combating free radicals in our body. Make no mistake , I am not against allopathy which has a proven track record to help suppress symptoms and cure infectious diseases , but for long lasting cure and for healthy life-style , ignore Aurveda at own peril. Basil , Turmeric , Tulsi ,garlic etc have proven to be very useful in treating patients with stomach and other inflammatory disorders..
THX_1138 Posted June 30, 2008 Posted June 30, 2008 The simple fact that fruits and vegetables have nutrient value associated with them should be enough to debunk any naysayers who think Ayurveda is junk science. Their is scientific basis to classify certain fruits as "Super fruits" based on antioxidant content and other important nutrients. For example ' date=' Tomato(although not classified as super fruit) contains Lycopene which is a bright red carotenoid pigment and phytochemical which actually helps maintain prostate health. Another example would be blue berries and cranberries . These are anti-oxidant high fruits which have medically proven health benefits in combating free radicals in our body. Make no mistake , I am not against allopathy which has a proven track record to help suppress symptoms and cure infectious diseases , but for long lasting cure and for healthy life-style , ignore Aurveda at own peril. Basil , Turmeric , Tulsi ,garlic etc have proven to be very useful in treating patients with stomach and other inflammatory disorders..[/quote'] listing nutrient contents of different food items is not inventing a medicine, that is simply being a good dietitian. i guess that is what ayurvedic medicine is then at the end of the day: a diet plan; does not make it a medicine! curious though... can you cure polio by eating copious amounts of tomatoes? or basil or turmeric? can you cure renal diseases by simply eating enough tulsi or garlic? get my point? i am not questioning the nutrient content of vegetables. being a vegan (well i do drink milk so not quite a vegan), i am a stringent supporter of a balanced, vegetarian diet, but that does not suggest that i am too above the use of an antibiotic when my body demands it! however, i am opposed to medicine that has not been verified in its voracity as a potential cure! inventing a new medicine is a complex and tedious process that takes over a decade of testing, litigation and clinical trials... ayurvedic medicine is somehow circumventing this with the convenient label that this is medicine from "the ages", as if somehow the knowledge of human anatomy and pharmacology was better in 300 A.D. as it is today when we have the benefit of genetically engineered E. Coli manufacturing drugs to a certain specification, molecule sequencing machines, and electron microscopes! just answer this: how many vaccinations are based on ayurvedic medicine?
THX_1138 Posted June 30, 2008 Posted June 30, 2008 I sure can. My only issue would be that most of this research that I say is often mentioned in the Fitness magazines I read. I have no reasons to read New England Journal of Medicine so I can not quote them but I will try to quote from multiple magazines later(at work right now but will surely look up). They already do, dont they? Take for example the ancient Indian way of beating cholestrol, chewing raw Garlic. Today you have Garlique which is popular enough in the West to have regular ads on TV and other media outlets. could you list one such article, the author, and the magazine (along with the date it was published), i will take it upon myself to email the publisher to present their research sources... and then we could pick this discussion up again.
Lurker Posted June 30, 2008 Posted June 30, 2008 just answer this: how many vaccinations are based on ayurvedic medicine? But vaccinations is surely a concept that has little to do with Ayurveda THX. See the point here is not that Ayurveda is the be all and end all for all issues Medical. Far from it actually. I mean it is would be insane to compare modern medicine today with something that was done 2000 years or so ago. Just as it would be ridiculous for us to compare the era of Pyramids with man going on moon. However what is also true is that Ayurveda has very strong roots and has proven track record when it comes to addressing many issues. Does it address all the issues? No. Does it adress many issues? Of course. A personal example: An exercise that I developed affinity to in last few years is Deadlifts, arguable the toughest overall exercise. People hate it but I loved it. But it also scrwed my back at times. I would feel sore days after my Deadlift. I did few other lower back exercises but didnt help. Then I saw a simple yoga posture that stretches your back. Trust me when I say I found benefits on day 1. Now I do my deadlifts and immediately do this. No problemo...well other than the fact that it looks plain awkward pushing your pelvis into the ground.
triam Posted June 30, 2008 Posted June 30, 2008 Hey Lurker, The issue with ayurveda as it stands today is not whether it is effective or not, but for WHO or FDA to approve it, it has to follow the established protocols for testing medicines including rigorous scientific tests and rigorous clinical trials. So, till that is done there will be only anecdotal evidence for the efficacy of ayurvedic medicine, and it will not considered as main stream science.
Lurker Posted June 30, 2008 Posted June 30, 2008 could you list one such article' date=' the author, and the magazine (along with the date it was published), i will take it upon myself to email the publisher to present their research sources... and then we could pick this discussion up again.[/quote'] Sure will THX
kumble_rocks Posted June 30, 2008 Posted June 30, 2008 listing nutrient contents of different food items is not inventing a medicine, that is simply being a good dietitian. i guess that is what ayurvedic medicine is then at the end of the day: a diet plan; does not make it a medicine! curious though... can you cure polio by eating copious amounts of tomatoes? or basil or turmeric? can you cure renal diseases by simply eating enough tulsi or garlic? I have already agreed that curing/containing any number of diseases like polio , AIDS , SARS . pneumonia etc certainly requires allopathy. I am not gonna dispute that . But let's take the example of renal diseases, can ayurveda cure it , certainly not and so can't allopathy . Their is not single medicine invented so far in allopathy which can cure chronic kidney disease . Medications help in chronic cases like proteinuria . But even Cranberries are known to help renal diseases and help maintain the urinary tract health. Will eating cranberries cure renal diseases, probably not , but it may certainly help in containing the disease along with diet like low protein one. In fact , just buy a bottle of Cranberry from Oceanspray or any brand ,and you will see that they have the endorsement by National Kidney association of USA . get my point? i am not questioning the nutrient content of vegetables. being a vegan (well i do drink milk so not quite a vegan), i am a stringent supporter of a balanced, vegetarian diet, but that does not suggest that i am too above the use of an antibiotic when my body demands it! however, i am opposed to medicine that has not been verified in its voracity as a potential cure! inventing a new medicine is a complex and tedious process that takes over a decade of testing, litigation and clinical trials... ayurvedic medicine is somehow circumventing this with the convenient label that this is medicine from "the ages", as if somehow the knowledge of human anatomy and pharmacology was better in 300 A.D. as it is today when we have the benefit of genetically engineered E. Coli manufacturing drugs to a certain specification, molecule sequencing machines, and electron microscopes! just answer this: how many vaccinations are based on ayurvedic medicine? Ayurveda has been around for more three thousand years now , and for certain ailments like acidity , gas skin diseases etc , it can certainly help . Even the H-pyroli which causes stomach ulcers can be controlled by using Manuka honey . Certain strains of Manuka honey are very effective in completely eradicating H. pylori when tested in the laboratory. Honey as such has long been known to alleviate dyspepsia and diarrhea and is a very effective wound dressing and antibacterial agent Manuka honey, however, is unique in its ability to completely eradicate H. pylori and this effect is only found in honey from specific geographic areas especially New Zealand. My point is allopathy and Ayurveda should work hand in hand.
sandtest Posted June 30, 2008 Posted June 30, 2008 i have a relative who has benefited from massive consumption of money blood... sounds unbelievable right? sounds... whats the word... "unverified". apply the same to what you said. do not use anecdotal evidence, that is not how science works. if you cannot use medical journal entries, which by the way, are considered the authentic sources of verified, peer reviewed research; be honest enough to admit that ayurvedic medicine is not science but pseudoscientific practices. If it's limited till a relative it's fair enough to call it a fluke. But what if millions using with satisfaction. The example I given you was a particular disease Jaundice (a type of Hepatitis) which gets cured through Ayurveda alone. And as far as India is concerned there are majority who prefer Ayurvedic treatment of Jaundice rather than allopathic. It's a fact. I am not aware about this FDA and all jazz in USA, but in India Ayurveda is huge and recognized by government of Indi and that's enough for us. btw..Did you gone thru previous Liv-52 link, it's universally accepted medicine for Liver strengthening.
THX_1138 Posted June 30, 2008 Posted June 30, 2008 If it's limited till a relative it's fair enough to call it a fluke. But what if millions using with satisfaction. The example I given you was a particular disease Jaundice (a type of Hepatitis) which gets cured through Ayurveda alone. And as far as India is concerned there are majority who prefer Ayurvedic treatment of Jaundice rather than allopathic. It's a fact. I am not aware about this FDA and all jazz in USA, but in India Ayurveda is huge and recognized by government of Indi and that's enough for us. btw..Did you gone thru previous Liv-52 link, it's universally accepted medicine for Liver strengthening. i have not quite gone through the liv52 link, but i will in a minute... accupuncture and chinese herbal medicine is recognized as a genuine medication by the government of china, who permits the use of medical insurance against them (dont know if medical insurance in india recognize ayurvedic medical care as an eligible claim), but it has been demonstrated that while accupuncture does cure back ache (and little else), the effectiveness of the procedure is comparable to a similar procedure where the needles are not inserted at the 'strategic points', but at randomly distributed points. i.e. the whole business of "accupuncture points" is hogwash. however, this does not lend any credibility to accupuncture, and thus, it is not covered by any insurance claims, however, it is recognized in the world's most populated nation... does that make accupuncture more credible than ayurvedic medicine? the whole business of ayurvedic medicine curing millions is heresy. there are no numbers to prove this claim, there are no statistically accurate trials, and no double blind tests to check the efficacy of these medicines. and thus, ayurvedic medicine, justly so mind you, is not even recognized by insurance providers in india (last i checked when i was in india last, ages ago). care to list a study where ayurvedic medicine has cured jaundice? i suffered jaundice twice in my life, once in 1992, and again in 1994. in 1992 i was in new delhi and had access to some of the finest medicine, and yet it took about three weeks for me to recover. however, not once did i hear anything about an ayurvedic cure for jaundice, and recovered pretty much on my own after the illness ran its course, all the while observing a rigid diet of raddish leaf juice and yogurt. this does not in any capacity suggest that yogurt and raddish leaves cure jaundice... same applies to any anecdotal evidence in the favor of ayurvedic medicine.
THX_1138 Posted June 30, 2008 Posted June 30, 2008 If it's limited till a relative it's fair enough to call it a fluke. But what if millions using with satisfaction. The example I given you was a particular disease Jaundice (a type of Hepatitis) which gets cured through Ayurveda alone. And as far as India is concerned there are majority who prefer Ayurvedic treatment of Jaundice rather than allopathic. It's a fact. I am not aware about this FDA and all jazz in USA, but in India Ayurveda is huge and recognized by government of Indi and that's enough for us. btw..Did you gone thru previous Liv-52 link, it's universally accepted medicine for Liver strengthening. The FDA, or the Federal Drug Association was formed in the late 1920s to combat adultrated food and medicine. Think of them as the more rigorous equivalent of ISI (indian standardization institute) that accertains if certain products are found to comply to a certain level of purity and preparation procedure. if any medicine is produced, it must be approved by the FDA before it can be marketed. infact, the FDA equivalent in now being adopted in india so that drugs produced by the major pharamaseutical companies in india can receive the FDA approval at site, and can be readily shipped to the united states, ready for consumption. if you think organizations such as the FDA and ISI are all 'jazz' i recommend a famous muckracker: Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle". its a famous book satiring the condition of american meat packing plants prior to the introduction of the FDA under the meat and drugs act of 1920.
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