Hyde Act binding on India, says Nicholas Burns

[sandtest]

False. Bomb-making has come a long way and you are insansely undereducated in this field if you think fission based weapons are still very big in size.

in 21st century not very big compared to 50s era, but still big enough to be mounted ONLY one or max two on each missile, with fairly low yield. While to dodge anti-missile batteries like advanced Patriot Pac-3, Israeli Arrow defence, Thaad or some Russian made batteries which Chinese have copied, you REQUIRE an MIRV missile with multiple warheads to ensure a credible nuclear ditterrence. Only an MIRV capable missile launched from a submarine is not vulnerable to first strike and thus ensures a full year round deterrence. Point is India has not yet achieved a submarine launched capability, so what was the need to accept such clauses in Hyde act thus cripple our deterrence. ATV -- Advanced Technology vehicle -- India's first attempt to design and make a nuclear subamrine is almost complete and will be equiped with Sagarika -- a subamarine launched missile. So this will definately make sense if we asked Hyde act to be removed so that we can carry on with our programme which is about to produce some good results.

Uhh...yeah. What do you think the military posturing of the cold war was about ? Of all things, i cannot believe you will have the temerity to try and educate me on the western psyche. I would've thought that you'd have atleast that much humility to defer opinion on that topic to someone who has vast experience with the west as opposed to yourself.

You are willingly ignoring the info. you were provided. I already said cold war nuclear weapons were an arms race or a p!ssing contest or whatever you like between US and Russia....BUT THE THERMO-NUCLEAR FUSION WEAPONS WERE A NECCESSITY neverthless.

Hey star, you dont have to educate me on what is an MIRV. Before you ejaculate about our need to test more bombs to MIRV it on missiles, it'd make more sense to have a MIRV platform ready and an actual ICBM or state of the art cruise-capable MIRv missile ready. India has neither ready. Therefore, nuke testing before these extremely difficult technologies are mastered, is akin to putting the cart before the horse

Firstly, don't get personal when need is none, or else you will be back on my ignore mode and kiss goodbye to any info. which you may get from an ex-airbase infrastructure experience holder. Secondly, you have no idea regarding MIRV capability, Agni-3 is MIRV capable and can carry at least 4 warheads in one go. MIRV is never a challenge for India, since DRDO benifitted immensely from ISRO programme of re-entry vehicles which they experimented by sending a vehicle out of earth's atmosphere and successfully recovering it. The BIG question for DRDO is warhed mating and miniaturization to so that they can mount at least 4-6 warheads. Now DRDO is not the agency which designs Nuke warheads in India, it comes under DAE (department of atomic energy) currently lead by Anil Kakodkar. DRDO is still searching for suitable warheads to mount on Agni while Manmohan is selling India's deterrence in the hands of west.

[sandtest]

yeah... we dont have a threat to national security that requires the use of nuclear weapons.

If only future was as certain and assured as present then there would not have been any war on earth. And we would have been meditating in Himalayas in full peace and tranquility instead of debating about Nuke warheads.:D

[CC1981]

in 21st century not very big compared to 50s era, but still big enough to be mounted ONLY one or max two on each missile, with fairly low yield.

What is the source of your information ? I know for a FACT that US has MIRV capable missiles that can deliver upto 7 fission bombs (or less # of bombs and more decoys). And what do you mean by 'low yeild' ? Is this another one of your 'my d!ck must be the biggest' syndrome and persuit of assinine records ? Tell me what the hell is the difference between a 100 Kt warhead and 5Mt warhead in terms of deterrence. As i said, a 100Kt warhead is MORE THAN SUFFICIENT to vaporise a very large city like Lahore or Shanghai or Mumbai. Upgrading that to 10Mt warhead will only vaporise the surrounding countryside and villages. As i said before, once you nuke Lahore, Pakistan will not care much if it was only Lahore proper that got nuked or Lahore plus its surrounding 10 villages ! This whole 'bigger bang' is as stupid as saying a bigger callibre bullet is better coz it leaves a bigger hole through the heart, when the objective is to kill someone! There is no difference between a 50Mt and 100Kt deterrence. If anything, given the awesome power of the nukes, there is such a thing as making one too big- you don't want to just shoot off a monster bomb like the Tsar Bomba and hit some sensetive geological region that just breaks apart a continent and fracks the whole world over. Hell, if anything, the latest trend has been towards MICRO nukes and thatre specific nukes.

Only an MIRV capable missile launched from a submarine is not vulnerable to first strike and thus ensures a full year round deterrence.

Utterly false, yet again. I am surprised how gung-ho you are about all this despite not having a clue. Only an MIRV-ed missile from an SSBN is an invulnerable first strike weapon ? Who said so, star ? You are partially correct- a SSBN platform is an invulnerable first strike weapon. The reason being, at any given time, the opposition has no idea where the sub is and thus, has no idea where the launch is comming from.THIS is what makes an SSBN a garanteed first strike weapon opposed to missile silos. But this ALSO makes truck-launched missiles a garanteed first strike weapon : at any given time, the opposition has no idea where your trucks with missiles on its back are. And India already has truck launched missiles. The only advantage of an SSBN over truck based system ( at a hugely bloated cost i might add) is that it offers strategic depth : a sub can creep up to any coastal location and fire off, whereas a mobile land-based system still has to operate within your national borders.

Point is India has not yet achieved a submarine launched capability, so what was the need to accept such clauses in Hyde act thus cripple our deterrence.

Again, India does NOT need to test nukes to achieve SSBN capability- China has recently acquired SSBN capability and it has not done a SINGLE nuke test for it ! bloody hell ! what will it take to get it through your brain that a submarine launched missile system does NOT require warhead testing, it only requires an empty tincan with engines,guidence and fuel to test it to the fullest measure.

So this will definately make sense if we asked Hyde act to be removed so that we can carry on with our programme which is about to produce some good results.

We can still carry on our military programs concurrent with Hyde act. As i said, we DO NOT require further warhead testing, since our nuclear capability is adequate. Indeed, Indian government- BOTH BJP during its raj and Congress during its current raj agrees on this and have EXPLICITLY stated that India has no future plans for more nuclear testing. Your stance isnt based on what is the best for the nation : CLEARLY, our need to keep the economy running and not have power shortfall as our economic crutch is FAR more crucial to India's future than having the OPTION to conduct further meaningless nuke tests. Besides, there are ways around Hyde act too. America ITSELF is just a signatory of CTBT and it has NOT ratified it yet- meaning America can renege on CTBT anytime it wishes. If push comes to shove, we can piggyback our nuke on Unkil's back and test it when they do- Pakistan has already done that with China so its no biggie. You can moan all you want that it is unfair and it is- but deal with it and think of what is the best course of action for your nation with the cards you've been dealt, instead of whining how it is unfair and how it 'curtails our rights to show off and be pompous and imperious'.

BUT THE THERMO-NUCLEAR FUSION WEAPONS WERE A NECCESSITY neverthless.

And you can yell that till you are hoarse and it wont make fusion bombs a necessity. It was developed as with every other cold war military and space technology : as bragging rights, as being the first one there and to merely have the option. You have, by no means established the need for more nuke testing. We have nukes that can vaporise a city and its small enough to be MIRV-ed at half a dozen per missile. Yes, we are struggling with miniaturisation in the MIRV department, but that is NOT to do with the size of the nuke, it is to do with our ballistics technology : issues such as fuel efficiency/amount of fuel, efficiency of engines, range of engines, etc. that plague us- i hope you realize that even if you got mega nukes the size of your dog's poop, if your engines or fuel mixture isnt good enough to effectively propel the MIRV-ed stage, you still get to deploy a small number of your poop-sized bombs. As i have said repeatedly : your central argument that fission bombs are bigger than fusion ones and thus a missile can carry less is FUNDAMENTALLY incorrect. I've also said WHY in terms of strategic deterrence a fission bomb of lower yeild works better than fusion bomb of higher yeild (contaminated area factor), which i notice, you have not dared to touch.

and kiss goodbye to any info. which you may get from an ex-airbase infrastructure experience holder.

First off, in your entire stay here,you have not discussed a SINGLE TIME about any relevant airbase/airport infrastructure related posts, nor have you provided any technical knowledge in any of the discussions that can be called exclusive to an airbase/airport technical expert. So at best, this threat is like 'you will not get any information..but i havnt given any information yet either'. Ie, a non sequitur. Secondly, thanks to the kammal of the internet and a thing called SOCIAL SKILLS ( you really think all the topics i've talked about in the past, its all due to me googling ? you really think i dont know people in the said fields and havnt picked their brain?), your 'vaunted' knowledge is not essential to me. There are plenty of sources where i can pick up info in MUCH MORE DETAIL than you will provide or maybe, even CAN provide. So take your threats somewhere else- if you want to put me on ignore, you can go ahead and do it, i don't give a toss. But if you say something stupid and assinine, i will say so- and if your response to that starts with namecalling like 'idiot,stupid' etc, you will get biteback from me. Its just that simple.

Secondly, you have no idea regarding MIRV capability, Agni-3 is MIRV capable and can carry at least 4 warheads in one go.

Look, i said our MIRV technology is NOT ready yet. And i STAND by that. 4 is a nothing number in the MIRV stakes these days - there are plenty of nations with plenty of missiles that can carry 8-10 warheads if not more. As i said, if you are worried about deterrence, you can whine all you want about more missile testing- which i already said is fine by me and isnt affected by Hyde act. However, you keep confusing testing missiles and subs with testing nukes, which is, at this point, UNNECESSARY. So bottomline is, we at worst, give up an UNNECESSARY right to give EXTREMELY NECESSARY boost to our economy. At best its a no-brainer, at worst, its a 'swallow your hollow pride and do the right thing' scenario. And as i said, it won't even come to that. Just THINK about it for a minute. Look at Unkil's foreign policies- there are several nations that enjoys several degrees of 'special nation' status with the US : Canada gets special nation status for economic and military hardwares, UK gets special nation status for military R&D, then there is Taiwan,Japan, Korea, Saudi, etc. You don't know the Unkil as i do and don't be lame enough to call me an unkil supporter- particularly when you've called me anti-unkil several times already. The Unkil is ALWAYS concerned with the financial bottomline. Unkil's empire is built on finance and you will see Unkil going through a lot of hoops to keep its bread buttered the right way. Unkil is no stranger to ignoring treaties it has ITSELF imposed on nations if it means saving their bread. Just look at Japan-Unkil relations. If you SERIOUSLY think that Japanese military has kept within the limits put upon it by Unkil at the end of WWII (and the treaty is STILL effective), you gotto be smoking something stronger than i've ever experienced. Right now, India-US trade is growing by leaps and bounds. Most of it is comming in the service sector too, which is a VERY IMPORTANT sector of relations. Our annual trade with Unkil is doubling every 2-3 years. In 10-15 years time, when Unkil-India trade reaches 100s of billions of dollars worth, you really think Unkil will be in any position to chop all that off just coz India exploded a nuke or two ? No, it will be the usual hand-wringing, waspish comments, sabre rattling- at best increased tarrifs for a limited time and thats it. So either way, reality is, Hyde act doesnt really affect our military in any practical way and i think it is simple nationalism/pride-gone way through the roof that is clouding your vision.

[CC1981]

Hey sandy, here is a language your religion-obsessed mind will understand: We dont have enough oil, gas or coal or uranium to be SELF SUFFICIENT IN ENERGY ( and if the works of millions like me worldwide pays off and life-cycle costs of PVCs come down by a factor of 2.5, all our energy problems will be solved). This means, we must pull our pants down, bend over and take it deep when whoever is selling us energy tells us to do so. Tere ko hyde act ki pari hai ? Mere ko arab hukumat ki pari haye. lets say you are 100% right: signing this means we will have to lick Unkil's joota. I say fine, lets do it. Lets do it because right now, we are licking arab joota. Countries like Saudi, Qatar, etc. are selling us oil and they KNOW our nation will grind to a halt and die in no time if they stopped selling us oil. That is why those jaahils can have the temerity to TELL OUR GOVERNMENT (your pyaare BJP govt. btw) that it will fund 100s of madrassahs in our country, spreading their well known and tested terroristic Wahhabi Islam, channeling money through the very sources they use to fund Al Qaeda, LeT and other dubious entities. And THAT is why our government can only go 'okay, do you want me to bend over now or later on in the night?' There can be no doubt that if this deal with Unkil goes through, the Arab stranglehold over India's energy resources will lighten atleast somewhat. I say ANYTHING that gives us more breathing room and biteback against these Arab religion-mongerers, is a good thing. And lastly, if you care that much about India's self sufficiency, pick a renewable source of energy and pour your admirable one-track minded obstinacy towards THAT. Pick one : from Jatropha, wind,solar, thorium breeder etc. For all these (save the latter), technology EXISTS to harvest electricity & energy for usage. The only PROBLEM is that the cost is too much : factor in the cost difference between (for eg) solar plants vs oil-fed ones and the lifecycle cost, solar is expensive by 2-3 times.And we are making steady progress in whittling down that number. It is not that we can't do it and its an utopian dream of a hippie, its simple economics: we renewable source guys simply cannot compete with the oil & gas guys for simple matter of COST. Join the club and contribute perhaps in this direction- atleast, more whining in this direction will be more meaningful for India than your Hyde Act or TADA whines.