who is the best batsman in the 10,000 runs club?

[Rajan]

we have Sunil Gavaskar Allan Border Steve Waugh Sachin Tendulkar Brian Lara Rahul Dravid Ricky Ponting I had watched some memorable innings from Sunil Gavaskar- 166 against Imran in a test in chennai, 162 by Allan Border in an earlier test, 150 odd each in 2 tests by Sachin against England and Australia at Chennai. I have also seen almost all good innings of Rahul Dravid on TV and some top class effort of Brain Lara and Steve waugh. some how, I think Allan Border is the best of this elite 10,000+ runs group.I am not arguing based on stats like career average but on what i had observed when Allan Border fought almost single handedly in many tests against the west indies fast bowlers when they were at their menacing best.Border had also done extremely well in pressure situation against their traditional rivals England and handled indian spinners quite confidently. with due respect the Sunil Gavaskar, I must place Allan Border as the best of the lot ahead of Gavaskar. my ranking would be 1.Allan Border 2.Sunil Gavaskar 3.Brain Lara 4.Steve Waugh 5.Sachin 6.Ricky Ponting 7.Rahul Dravid its my Humble opinion based on the quality of opposition bowling, pitches, pace, spin, supporting batsmen, .... now, should i hide....

[bharat297]

Hmmm ... thats a tough one ... probably between Lara and Tendulkar Now Border, Waugh, Ponting, Sunny and Dravid were all great batsmen and in some stats they will probably top the guys mentioned, but I think when it comes to determining the best batsmen, one cant only look at statistics, one must also look at strokeplay, the nature of the innings' played, and the excitement factor. This is where I think Lara and Tendulkar stand above the pack. They have taken strokeplay to a completely different level. The aggression, the audacity, the temerity, the boldness, the elegance and sheer skill level puts them above the rest of the pack. One could even make an argument that Ponting could be included in this group because some of his strokes have been good too. Now some of the others may have been more effective (for example, Steve Waugh was more effective under pressure) but all in all I think Brian Charles and Sachin Ramesh share the honours.

[DomainK]

If it was about ODIs, the answer would have been very simple. But in tests its a tough one. I remember reading somewhere that when Gavaskar crossed eight thousand, some journalist had called Boycott for a comment and he had said that Gavaskar's runs were more difficut since he batted mostly against tougher opposition like West Indies, Australia and England. We also have to consider the facts that openers have to negotiate with the new ball and they invariably face the best fast bowlers from the opposition. To top it off, they didnt used helmet much those days. And Gavaskar scoring those runs at that time was as good as someone from Bangladesh scoring eight grands on tests today. Because India sucked in test cricket big time. His wicket was always singled out as the prize wicket for all opposition wickets and the opposition think tank always planned on how to dismiss Gavaskar. I would give it to sunny. The best in that lot.

[Shane]

We need a poll !!! We would get a very good indication, we dont need any more of Sachin v/s Ponting v/s Rest debates !!!

[SachDan]

We need a poll !!! We would get a very good indication' date=' we dont need any more of Sachin v/s Ponting v/s Rest debates !!![/quote'] Poll !! its a forgone conclusion :winky:

[Rajan]

If it was about ODIs, the answer would have been very simple. But in tests its a tough one. I remember reading somewhere that when Gavaskar crossed eight thousand, some journalist had called Boycott for a comment and he had said that Gavaskar's runs were more difficut since he batted mostly against tougher opposition like West Indies, Australia and England. We also have to consider the facts that openers have to negotiate with the new ball and they invariably face the best fast bowlers from the opposition. To top it off, they didnt used helmet much those days. And Gavaskar scoring those runs at that time was as good as someone from Bangladesh scoring eight grands on tests today. Because India sucked in test cricket big time. His wicket was always singled out as the prize wicket for all opposition wickets and the opposition think tank always planned on how to dismiss Gavaskar. I would give it to sunny. The best in that lot.

I beg to differ because i think right through his career, Gavaskar had Vishvanath, an equally great player of fast bowling and spin bowling. For a largely significant period when he faced quality opposition, he had Mohinder Amarnath and Vengsarkar too. yes, he did not have very reliable opening parters. another potentially controversial comment i would make is: except for some 6 of his centuries, the other hundreds against West indies were against relatively weaker pace attack. Even Border was the fulcrum of his team for a long long time, in fact he rebuilt a shattered team and instilled confidence in them. he faced the fiery west indiies, pakistani and england bowlers and redeemed himself in subcontinental pitches too.only towards the later part of his career he had a decent batting order. He did not have as many hundreds but his innings were as gritty as any one had

[Shane]

Poll !! its a forgone conclusion :winky:

:hysterical: Lolz, Dan u Legend, we could get a vivid idea who runs him close !!!

[Rajan]

instead of a poll, it would be better if the resident stat Gurus, analyse the performance of these legends and run a report along with the quality of opposition bowling too. I dont really know how to compare 7 players at a time and analysing the bowling too.

[DomainK]

instead of a poll' date=' it would be better if the resident stat Gurus, analyse the performance of these legends and run a report along with the quality of opposition bowling too. I dont really know how to compare 7 players at a time and analysing the bowling too.[/quote'] The last thing I want is to such great batsmen compared on basis of statistics of any kind.

[bunny]

Pace bowling: Dravid, Border, Tendulkar, Lara, Gavaskar, Waugh, Ponting Spin: Lara, Gavaskar, Tendulkar, Waugh, Border, Dravid, Ponting

[Rajan]

Pace bowling: Dravid, Border, Tendulkar, Lara, Gavaskar, Waugh, Ponting Spin: Lara, Gavaskar, Tendulkar, Waugh, Border, Dravid, Ponting

Dravid is certainly not the best of the lot in facing pace. he had his problems against Akram even as late as 1999 when Akram was not what he used to be. Ponting is not to be ranked last in playing pace. no way.

[Dinx - the Jinx]

Is this thread a joke or what? Its Sachin Tendular by a mile.. Why are we even discussing?

[bunny]

Dravid is certainly not the best of the lot in facing pace. he had his problems against Akram even as late as 1999 when Akram was not what he used to be. Ponting is not to be ranked last in playing pace. no way.

Maybe Ponting can come ahead of Waugh but nobody else. If you think RD had problems against Akram, then you can dig up a bowler for all the batsmen listed above. RD got out to Akram just once in 3 tests. So I am not sure how you can claim that anyway. Btw, you should remember that RD was our best batsman against SA in SA in 1996 (in both ODIs and tests when players where being shuffled up and down like anything) and the Toronto Series (where I think Akram was there).

[Rajan]

ok. but i somehow cant agree that he would have been as successful against Ambrose, Patterson, Walsh,Marshall or Holding, Garner, Roberts...or even Imran , Waqar and wasim . Sachin is a champion in palying leg spinners and quite a master in handling off spinners.I feel Tendulkar has problems against good Left arm spinners- even Raymond Price of Zimbabwae troubled him. plz dont look up at how many times he was dismissed by Left arm bowlers. i am discussing his discomfort in playing them. i cant find any such chink in Dravid in playing spinners.so, i am surprised u ranked him low in that.

[fineleg]

Is this thread a joke or what? Its Sachin Tendular by a mile.. Why are we even discussing?

Sunny Gavaskar trumps SRT. Gavaskar it is.

[bunny]

ok. but i somehow cant agree that he would have been as successful against Ambrose, Patterson, Walsh,Marshall or Holding, Garner, Roberts...or even Imran , Waqar and wasim . Sachin is a champion in palying leg spinners and quite a master in handling off spinners.I feel Tendulkar has problems against good Left arm spinners- even Raymond Price of Zimbabwae troubled him. plz dont look up at how many times he was dismissed by Left arm bowlers. i am discussing his discomfort in playing them. i cant find any such chink in Dravid in playing spinners.so, i am surprised u ranked him low in that.

Dravid had no problems against Ambrose and Walsh in 96-97. He didn't have any problems against Donald and Pollock in 1996 when he wasn't made to open (in both tests and ODIs he was awesome when SRT, Azhar, etc were struggling). He was the best player in the 2002 tour in NZ. The first 3-4 years of his career he was just awesome. ODI cricket changed his batting because of which he started shuffling a lot. Regarding spin, I'd say he was untroubled by good spinners like Vettori, McGill, etc., but he had a lot of problems against Warne and Murali. He never picked the doosra of Murali (and Saqlain), and Warne troubled him a lot with the ones pitching just on leg stump. Technically also he has a flaw of prodding too much and not keeping the bat close to the pads and hence when the ball is spinning a lot he was in big trouble. That's why I rated him low. SRT, on the other hand, has a really good technique. Be it against spinners or fast bowlers. It's just that he hasn't done enough with his technique. Probably plays too much over-ambitious shots. I am not sure if Steve Waugh and Border were actually really good players of spin. I haven't watched both of them too much against spinners. I just assumed they would be. Gavaskar, on the other hand, wasn't consistent at all against the real good pacers like Marshall and also he struggled on away tours in the late 70s and 80s. IMO, RD and SRT don't have too many flaws against pace. And performance-wise I'd take Border and RD as the top two.

[bunny]

Btw, a very interesting thread indeed!! Just thinking more on it probably it's not a good idea to just rate these players (which is going to be very subjective) but discuss more on their techniques, strengths, flaws, shot-making ability, character, etc. All the batsmen (probably not Ponting ;) are all-time greats and it will be good to analyze them.

[bharat297]

Pace bowling: Dravid, Border, Tendulkar, Lara, Gavaskar, Waugh, Ponting Spin: Lara, Gavaskar, Tendulkar, Waugh, Border, Dravid, Ponting

Gavaskar was one of the finest players of pace bowling Ive seen, and he played 2 of the best pace attacks of all time (West Indian and Australian) Sunny scored 13 hundreds and 7 fifties vs the west indies. But to me Sachin and Lara sit atop the mountain because of their strokeplay and skill level. In their respective primes, every time they scored a ton it was one of the finest exhibitions of batting one was privleged to witness. Those who watched would simply stand back and applaud as these 2 took batting to a whole new level in my opinion. Look at some of the innings these 2 maestros have played ... such as Sachins 148 in Sydney or his 116 in Melbourne or Laras majestic 277 in Sydney or what I think is the best Lara innings ive seen , which is his 153 in Bridgetown. With all do respect to Steve Waugh, ive never seen an innings where I watch in amazement at his skills. Its usually more of a grind out and fight type of innings (which is extremely effective though). Lara & Sachin ... then the rest.

[Lurker]

some how, I think Allan Border is the best of this elite 10,000+ runs group.I am not arguing based on stats like career average but on what i had observed when Allan Border fought almost single handedly in many tests against the west indies fast bowlers when they were at their menacing best.Border had also done extremely well in pressure situation against their traditional rivals England and handled indian spinners quite confidently.

Allan Border had a glorified couple of years in which he could have very well been the best batsman of his times. However he was certainly not the best batsman of his generation overall, let alone in the 10,000 club. The encounters that you mention against West Indies happened in 1 series, and although he did have his chances it is not exactly that he dominated West Indies every single time he walked in to bat. I would say he had similar performances as Alan Lamb used to have around the same time - gutsy innings when others were falling. Border was good, I wont deny that but hardly better than Sunny. Do remember that when Richie benaud picked his 33 players, and finally 11 out of them, Border did not even make 33. Of the folks in 10,000 club here is my ranking: Sunny was numero uno. Had there not been a certain Viv Richards, Sunny was the best batsman of his time. And only reason Viv comes out better is his penchant for dominance as also his performance in LOI. In Test Sunny was as good, if not better. Second has to be Sachin. Sure his performance has dwindled over the years, and noone here has criticized him more than I have mind you. But his performance speaks for himself. The man has been battling since his lips were torn open by Waqar Younis in late 80s and 20 years later still puts fear in bowlers mind, not to mention his sheer mountain of runs which most likely wont be touched. Lara is 3rd. Overall I would say Sunny > Sachin > Lara > Dravid > Steve Waugh > Border. Ponting comes dead last. xxx

[fineleg]

For Tests, I'd think Sunny is the best. On a separate note, Dravid in Tests (despite his recent infamous slump), is better than SRT in Tests. ODIs ofcourse SRT is the winner.