Baffling questions: How 4 terrorists could fight for so long

[suraj]

Mumbai Witness: ‘Armed police would not fire back’ London Independent Saturday, Nov 29, 2008 It is the photograph that has dominated the world’s front pages, casting an astonishing light on the fresh-faced killers who brought terror to the heart of India’s most vibrant city. Now The Independent can reveal how the astonishing picture came to be taken by a newspaper photographer who hid inside a train carriage as gunfire erupted all around him. Sebastian D’Souza, a picture editor at the Mumbai Mirror, whose offices are just opposite the city’s Chhatrapati Shivaji station, heard the gunfire erupt and ran towards the terminus. “I ran into the first carriage of one of the trains on the platform to try and get a shot but couldn’t get a good angle, so I moved to the second carriage and waited for the gunmen to walk by,†he said. “They were shooting from waist height and fired at anything that moved. I briefly had time to take a couple of frames using a telephoto lens. I think they saw me taking photographs but theydidn’t seem to care.†The gunmen were terrifyingly professional, making sure at least one of them was able to fire their rifle while the other reloaded. By the time he managed to capture the killer on camera, Mr D’Souza had already seen two gunmen calmly stroll across the station concourse shooting both civilians and policemen, many of whom, he said, were armed but did not fire back. “I first saw the gunmen outside the station,†Mr D’Souza said. “With their rucksacks and Western clothes they looked like backpackers, not terrorists, but they were very heavily armed and clearly knew how to use their rifles. (ARTICLE CONTINUES BELOW) “Towards the station entrance, there are a number of bookshops and one of the bookstore owners was trying to close his shop,†he recalled. “The gunmen opened fire and the shopkeeper fell down.†But what angered Mr D’Souza almost as much were the masses of armed police hiding in the area who simply refused to shoot back. “There were armed policemen hiding all around the station but none of them did anything,†he said. “At one point, I ran up to them and told them to use their weapons. I said, ‘Shoot them, they’re sitting ducks!’ but they just didn’t shoot back.†As the gunmen fired at policemen taking cover across the street, Mr D’Souza realised a train was pulling into the station unaware of the horror within. “I couldn’t believe it. We rushed to the platform and told everyone to head towards the back of the station. Those who were older and couldn’t run, we told them to stay put.†The militants returned inside the station and headed towards a rear exit towards Chowpatty Beach. Mr D’Souza added: “I told some policemen the gunmen had moved towards the rear of the station but they refused to follow them. What is the point if having policemen with guns if they refuse to use them? I only wish I had a gun rather than a camera.â€

[suraj]

Besides this- how is it possible that a mere 3-4 terrorist just kept the elite forces at bay for 3 days eventually all the hostages died too- we need to admire the bravery of the commandos but I don;t know how we can term the operation as success using any metric; whether it is time taken to resolve the situation, no of hostages rescued or terrorists capture live. It just seems so baffling that despite the amunition brought there was this long trail of killings by these terrorists; from the ship to boats to cab drivers to train station to hotel & commandos/police but somehow no one was able to get hold and kill some of them at a quick rate

[DomainK]

I think its total lack of planning and experience. And lets also not forget that 4 people inside a hotel with endless ammunition are not easy to deal with. A hotel guest said that they were returning a bullet with a grenade. They had sufficient ammunition with them.

[Predator_05]

It's easy to talk crap on the internet when you don't know anything. The Taj has 563 rooms and some 10 floors. That's one massive area. Even with a numerical advantage, it's impossible to secure the whole area. And with such few terrorists, it almost like looking for a needle in a hay stack. What happened here was that the terrorists kept moving from one floor to the next, slipping from one room to the other. Very difficult to track, especially when you have hostages involved as well. It wouldn't have taken this long if there weren't any hostages - the objective here was to make sure the hostages didn't die.

[Lurker]

BS of the highest order. First of all you dont do your homework, then you have the audacity to raise questions about cops who lost 16 of their own and lastly the shamelessness to quote a foreign media. Here is what Mumbai Cops did do: a) The Top cops got down as soon as the news was heard that a couple of terrorists have entered Cama Hospital. Unfortunately their vehicle came under heavy attack from behind a tree(cowardly as expected) and they all lost their lives. b) The second group of cops chased the terrorists which made them change their plans and move away from Times of India building. Just imagine the terrorists take over TOI and then sending whatever message to the world as they would like. c) The second group of cops chased down the Police vehicle that terrorist had captured, shot down its tires, the terrorists captured a Skoda but was intercepted again by the Cops at Girgaun Chowpatty. d) The duo pretended to surrender, then reached for their pistols. One was immediately shot down while second pretended to be killed but was discovered alive later. The sole terrorist captured alive was captured by Mumbai cops with their 0.22 and 0.303 before Special Ops came into the picture. So please be aware of facts before you start yapping away and capitalizing misleading articles in bold and red. xxx

[suraj]

BS of the highest order. First of all you dont do your homework, then you have the audacity to raise questions about cops who lost 16 of their own and lastly the shamelessness to quote a foreign media. Here is what Mumbai Cops did do: a) The Top cops got down as soon as the news was heard that a couple of terrorists have entered Cama Hospital. Unfortunately their vehicle came under heavy attack from behind a tree(cowardly as expected) and they all lost their lives. b) The second group of cops chased the terrorists which made them change their plans and move away from Times of India building. Just imagine the terrorists take over TOI and then sending whatever message to the world as they would like. c) The second group of cops chased down the Police vehicle that terrorist had captured, shot down its tires, the terrorists captured a Skoda but was intercepted again by the Cops at Girgaun Chowpatty. d) The duo pretended to surrender, then reached for their pistols. One was immediately shot down while second pretended to be killed but was discovered alive later. The sole terrorist captured alive was captured by Mumbai cops with their 0.22 and 0.303 before Special Ops came into the picture. So please be aware of facts before you start yapping away and capitalizing misleading articles in bold and red. xxx

[Willow_on_fire]

Since hostages were involved.....the commandos had to do the 'wait & watch'...which obviously took time, also some of the top officers died because they under-estimated the terrorists and also did not have any cover-fire alongside when they were gunned down in their vehicle by a single terrorist....what a loss that was....:((

[Lurker]

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[Brainfade]

BS of the highest order. First of all you dont do your homework, then you have the audacity to raise questions about cops who lost 16 of their own and lastly the shamelessness to quote a foreign media. Here is what Mumbai Cops did do: a) The Top cops got down as soon as the news was heard that a couple of terrorists have entered Cama Hospital. Unfortunately their vehicle came under heavy attack from behind a tree(cowardly as expected) and they all lost their lives. b) The second group of cops chased the terrorists which made them change their plans and move away from Times of India building. Just imagine the terrorists take over TOI and then sending whatever message to the world as they would like. c) The second group of cops chased down the Police vehicle that terrorist had captured, shot down its tires, the terrorists captured a Skoda but was intercepted again by the Cops at Girgaun Chowpatty. d) The duo pretended to surrender, then reached for their pistols. One was immediately shot down while second pretended to be killed but was discovered alive later. The sole terrorist captured alive was captured by Mumbai cops with their 0.22 and 0.303 before Special Ops came into the picture. So please be aware of facts before you start yapping away and capitalizing misleading articles in bold and red. xxx

Not to mention the fact that they had orders to keep collateral damage to a minimum. The terrorists had no such contingencies. It would have been easy for the security forces to launch an all-out assault, but they would have been criticized for recklessness, too. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[Predator_05]

United we stand...:haha: what a joke.

[graphic23]

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[suraj]

Seriously' date=' follow your own advice. If you, for a minute, have the audacity to doubt what our guys did, you have no self-respect and have no common sense and a blathering idiot joining yet another ****ing newspaper which has the balls to comment on our police losing their lives to save people (including many foreigners). The mere fact that you posted this shows that you are doubting the efficiency of the rescuers. Now, please, seriously, go **** yourself.[/quote'] Ever heard of lessons learnt and making sure we are better preapred next time?? If you read carefully I already mentioned the bravery of the commandos and our gratitude is beyond question but you are reacting just like our politicians who refuse to start planning better every time incidents like these happen. If we are not going to critically examine the shortcomings and improve then by what right can we fret and fume every time this happens? Again this proves that Indian public is ok with status quo and "we are ok" attitude when we know that this is not the last time incidents like these happen.

[suraj]

Since hostages were involved.....the commandos had to do the 'wait & watch'...which obviously took time' date=' also some of the top officers died because they under-estimated the terrorists and also did not have any cover-fire alongside when they were gunned down in their vehicle by a single terrorist....what a loss that was....:(([/quote'] This is quite true Willow- the problem also was that the elite force which had the capability to these bastards head on was so far and the local cops did not have the expertise to handle it Very unfortunate- I hope the process is improved

[Willow_on_fire]

Ever heard of lessons learnt and making sure we are better preapred next time?? If you read carefully I already mentioned the bravery of the commandos and our gratitude is beyond question but you are reacting just like our politicians who refuse to start planning better every time incidents like these happen. If we are not going to critically examine the shortcomings and improve then by what right can we fret and fume every time this happens? Again this proves that Indian public is ok with status quo and "we are ok" attitude when we know that this is not the last time incidents like these happen.

yes...lessons have to be learn't bigtime, it was definetely a ill-prepared operation....no point in being overzealous patriot trying to ignore bare facts.

[Ram]

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[suraj]

Not to mention the fact that they had orders to keep collateral damage to a minimum. The terrorists had no such contingencies. It would have been easy for the security forces to launch an all-out assault' date=' but they would have been criticized for recklessness, too. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.[/quote'] Cric, This is quite true- I was not questioning the "wait and watch" policy but rather bemoaning the tragedy that despite this the hostages still ended up dead' can't really blame the commandos for what they did because at that time they had to be cautious but just wish the outcome would have been different.

[suraj]

yes...lessons have to be learn't bigtime' date=' it was definetely a ill-prepared operation....no point in being overzealous patriot trying to ignore bare facts.[/quote'] The biggest problem I see though is when the politicians in charge such as Patil come out with outrageous statements calling this a "small incident"- if they are not even willing to acknowledge that this was a collosal failure on part of the govt then why would they even bother to learn and improve?

[suraj]

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I don't want to bring to the forum the personal sorrow I have suffered in this episode but for anyone who has lost someone here posting rosy posts to prove to you that I am a cheerful person is too unimportant in my life at this moment. I will ask you to try and respect the sentiments of some of us who have been affected and are not in a cheerleading mood right now rather than chide them into "Hail team India' kind of attitude at this time.

[Ram]

I don't want to bring to the forum the personal sorrow I have suffered in this episode but for anyone who has lost someone here posting rosy posts to prove to you that I am a cheerful person is too unimportant in my life at this moment. I will ask you to try and respect the sentiments of some of us who have been affected and are not in a cheerleading mood right now rather than chide them into "Hail team India' kind of attitude at this time.

Mate, apologies if I came across a bit out of context. My sincere condolences are with you. Once again, sorry.

[Brainfade]

The biggest problem I see though is when the politicians in charge such as Patil come out with outrageous statements calling this a "small incident"- if they are not even willing to acknowledge that this was a collosal failure on part of the govt then why would they even bother to learn and improve?

Bottom line? If the policemen in the railway station had comparable arms, they would have had the confidence to fire back. But, with their bolt-action rifles, they'd fire one round; if it missed, they'd be reloading their weapon, and would have no chance of survival. Our government needs to arm and train our policemen better.