Is India Secular

[Lurker]

बात कितने कि नहीं है बात ये है कि हिंदू संस्था को स्वत्नत्रता भी नहीं और इस्लामिक संस्था को सब्सिडी| और हाँ मदरसा शिक्षक को मिलाता है सरकारी पैसा. संस्कृत संस्था को शायद ही मान्यता मिलाती है.. हर गली में है मेद्रेसाहा और संस्कृत विद्यालय धुन्द्ते रह जाओगे.. और जो विद्यालय है भी उनको शिख्सकों को या तो पैसा नहीं मिलाता है कुछ को जेहन मिलाता है वो तुलना में बहुत कम मिलाता है |

ये ग़लत बात है और यह आपको पता है. संस्कृत विद्यालय बंद होते जा रहे हैं ये बात सच है. मगर क्या यह मुसलमानों की गलती है? कौन से हिंदू माता-पिता अपने बच्चों को संस्कृत पाठशाला भेजने के लिए लालायित हैं?? मेरे अपने जान पहचान के घर में लोग बच्चों को पहले A B C फिर क ख ग. आप अपने घर में संस्कृत शुरू करके देखिये. शायद भाभीजी दो जूते लगा देंगी आपको. यह तो वही बात हुयी के हम तो डूबेंगे सनम तुमको भी ले डूबेंगे.

[Lurker]

So you are saying Hindu demands are all idiotic and communal or whatever made you say that but Mullah brigade demands are halaal only ? :hmmm:

Nope. I said that BB's demands are idiotic.

BJP did not have unquestioned majority vote like congress had for many many yrs.

Excuses, excuses excuses....

What is the Govts business in providing a single paisa to any religious undertaking when it claims to be a secular one ? Straight answer.

This has nothing to do with Secularism. Since when did you get interested in Secularism anyway? This issue has to do with Mohammedan hatred, lets be clear on this. If amarnath yatra had not happened would you be supporting haj subsidy? :hysterical:

[Lurker]

Thats not "MY" demand. that is a cold hard fact (as is BJP not having majority in Parliament ) which I know you have a severe allergy to.

Yep it is YOUR demand. You have this tendency of falling back on your Hindu background whenever you run out of sane arguments. And as I always maintain the discussion has to be me and you, not Hindu and Muslims, thats plain mob mentality.

lookup the title of the thread and follow the discussion. Me or you being secular or jihadi has nothing to do with what is being debated

I have specifically took an issue that seemed to be the hot point towards the end and have clearly made my point. The only one who is talking gibberish is yourself so please take a moment to follow the discussion and suggest whats wrong with Haj subsidy.

You can think what you want and there is no surprise as to how your thinking works. If you want to know why your beloved mohmedan religion is comming under the fire read the papers every day. :winky:

lol..Thanks for understanding how my thinking works :winky: Now if only I could glean why this brouhaha over 1.8/134,400 that would make my evening even better! xxxx

[Lurker]

Wow .... let me get this straight .... so according to your claim ... I "made up" the Amarnath land issue ? Is that what you are saying ?

I am saying you butted into my post about India being a Secular country and your argument was Haj Subsidy(please feel free to revisit this thread). On being taken deeper into the issue you basically came across as being filled with Hot wind.

Which is Haj Subsidy = Perfectly Secular .... according to you .. Right ?

And where is Haj Subsidy != Secular? As I have mentioned earlier if HS is taken off would you be singing hosannas about Indian Secularism? Course not. So quit this whole equating with Secularism thingy.

errr Not secular. Those are things a theocracy would do

Yeah right. Theorcracy will take 1.8/134,400 out of its people's pocket for religion. Your definition of theocracy seems to be as skewed as the knowledge on HS. :haha:

that would require you to have an understanding of what true secularism is.

:hysterical: Thanks for the laughs.

[Lurker]

News flash ... a public forum is all about people "butting in" (otherwise known as posting ) . I dont need your permission to comment on your posts and vice-versa. Get used to it.

Not really. A public forum is all about exchanging ideas. Not some hit and run miss activity that you excel into. You can not simply bring out a topic and then fold up. That basically means you have little credibility. In this case you butted in with a Haj subsidy angle and never delivered one logical reason.

where did this earth shattering event occur ... could you point me to that post ?

Right here. Who uttered the Hindu word?? Me or you. Why can we not speak for ourselves?? And if you do have to carry the entire jamaat/ummah with you shouldnt you be arguing with Zakir Naik?? Why me anyway?

A truly secular Govt. will not get into the business of spending money on religious affairs that too for only one particular religion .. do you disagree with this ?

I will summarise the entire discussion now for the sake of brevity: a) Muslims need to perform Haj as part of their religious obligations. None of the other religion have this philosphy. If Sikhs did have to perform some sort of ritual at Nankana Sahib and GOI didnt help them the same way I would understand your grievance. b) Help to Muslims does not affect an Indian citizen, nor does it affect any little devlopment what soever. At most it translates to less than 2 rupess per person per year, and %age wise it is a glorious 1.33929E-05 per citizen of India. Now onto the issue of do we need to continue it? I am open to it either way. a) It can be continued since it doesnt affect Indian exchequer. b) It can be discontinued simply because running the services by private companies, say Jet Airways, would only make it more competitive and save GOI money. Not to mention the fact that the more the private companies make an entry the less Govt corruption are going to become. What I disagree strongly with you is your whole Mohammedan us-versus-them angle. To you the problem is never a problem it is only a prognosis of the M word. xxx

[Guest dada_rocks]

ये ग़लत बात है और यह आपको पता है. संस्कृत विद्यालय बंद होते जा रहे हैं ये बात सच है. मगर क्या यह मुसलमानों की गलती है? कौन से हिंदू माता-पिता अपने बच्चों को संस्कृत पाठशाला भेजने के लिए लालायित हैं?? मेरे अपने जान पहचान के घर में लोग बच्चों को पहले A B C फिर क ख ग. आप अपने घर में संस्कृत शुरू करके देखिये. शायद भाभीजी दो जूते लगा देंगी आपको. यह तो वही बात हुयी के हम तो डूबेंगे सनम तुमको भी ले डूबेंगे.

क्या इधर से उधर कूद रहे हो यार अक विषय पे तो बात करो | सरकरी सहायता न मिलाने का कारन संस्कृत विद्यालय बंद हो रहा है " सरकारी सहायता मिलाने के कारण मदरसा चल रहा है |अब इसमें कोई भी इन्सान को गलती दिखती है, आप भाई महान हैं| विषय ठाट भारतीय सरकार धर्म-निरपेक्ष है की नहीं इसमें मुसलमान की क्या गलती है ये विषय कहाँ से आ गया| बहुत साधारण सी बात है| भारत सरकार निरपेक्ष नहीं है| वो हिंदू मन्दिर को टैक्स करती है हिंदू विद्यालय को सहायता नहीं देती| वहीँ बहरत सरकार मुस्लिम धार्मिक संसथान को टैक्स नहीं करती मेदेर्सः को आर्थिक सहायता देती है| मौलवी को अक सामान्य शिक्षक की भांति वेतन देती है| हिन्दुओं को तीर्थयात्रा के लिए पैसा नहीं देती| मुस्लिमों को देती है| ये साधारण सी बात आपके पल्ले क्यूँ नहीं पड़ रही है | वैसे का खा गा संस्कृत में भी काम आता है | और नहीं भाभीजी बड़े गर्व के साथ अपने मित्रों को बताती है की उनका पति संस्कृत में भी बोल सकता है |

[Lurker]

क्या इधर से उधर कूद रहे हो यार अक विषय पे तो बात करो | सरकरी सहायता न मिलाने का कारन संस्कृत विद्यालय बंद हो रहा है " सरकारी सहायता मिलाने के कारण मदरसा चल रहा है |अब इसमें कोई भी इन्सान को गलती दिखती है, आप भाई महान हैं| विषय ठाट भारतीय सरकार धर्म-निरपेक्ष है की नहीं इसमें मुसलमान की क्या गलती है ये विषय कहाँ से आ गया| बहुत साधारण सी बात है| भारत सरकार निरपेक्ष नहीं है| वो हिंदू मन्दिर को टैक्स करती है हिंदू विद्यालय को सहायता नहीं देती| वहीँ बहरत सरकार मुस्लिम धार्मिक संसथान को टैक्स नहीं करती मेदेर्सः को आर्थिक सहायता देती है| मौलवी को अक सामान्य शिक्षक की भांति वेतन देती है| हिन्दुओं को तीर्थयात्रा के लिए पैसा नहीं देती| मुस्लिमों को देती है| ये साधारण सी बात आपके पल्ले क्यूँ नहीं पड़ रही है | वैसे का खा गा संस्कृत में भी काम आता है | और नहीं भाभीजी बड़े गर्व के साथ अपने मित्रों को बताती है की उनका पति संस्कृत में भी बोल सकता है |

फिर इस विषय पर हम दोनों में वैचारिक मतभेद है. मेरा यह मान ना है के संस्कृत, या फिर हिन्दी ही ले लें आप, के प्रति हमारे देश में कोई ख़ास रुझान नहीं है. हिन्दुओं को अपनी अपनी भाषा पे गर्व है. इस्सिलिये वोह अंग्रेज़ी सीख लेंगे मगर हिन्दी, संस्कृत की बात जाने दें, में उदासीनता दिखाएँगे. मोमिन जनता में यह थोड़ा कम देखने को मिलता है. वहां कुरान सीखने पर या फिर उर्दू का ज्ञान लेने की तरह जागरूगता ज्यादा है.

[TheBoyPlunger]

BJP is against valentines day' date=' what is the reason according to you? if you are national party with grand goals of secularism, why would you do this?[/quote'] Political reasons. Which is why Ashok Gehlot and that loony Anbumani Ramadoss are also against 'pub culture'. The masses win you elections, not the elite. You might be comfortable with the pubs and the valentine's days. But for a huge population in india, they feel alienated as they are not a part of it. Secularism has nothing to do with this. Which is why BJP doesn't have a problem with normal Christian festivals. You might disagree with their views. But then you are in the 'elite' and most of the elite don't vote anyway. So now, can you answer my questions?

[Guest dada_rocks]

फिर इस विषय पर हम दोनों में वैचारिक मतभेद है. मेरा यह मान ना है के संस्कृत, या फिर हिन्दी ही ले लें आप, के प्रति हमारे देश में कोई ख़ास रुझान नहीं है. हिन्दुओं को अपनी अपनी भाषा पे गर्व है. इस्सिलिये वोह अंग्रेज़ी सीख लेंगे मगर हिन्दी, संस्कृत की बात जाने दें, में उदासीनता दिखाएँगे. मोमिन जनता में यह थोड़ा कम देखने को मिलता है. वहां कुरान सीखने पर या फिर उर्दू का ज्ञान लेने की तरह जागरूगता ज्यादा है.

फिर से आम इमली का चक्कर हो गया | यहाँ पर सबाल ये नहीं है की हिंदू संस्कृत को कितना तरजीह देते हैं | सबाल ये है की भारत सरकार सौतेला व्यवहार कर रही है या नहीं संस्कृत विद्यालोयों के साथ मदरसा की तुलना में | संस्कृत विद्यालय पड़ी है शिक्षक पढ़ा रहे हैं वेतन नहीं मिलाता.. पता नहीं और कैसे रुझान दिखाया जाता है| पहले जो विद्यालय हैं उनको तो पैसा मिले| अब पैसा नहीं दोगे उन विद्यालयों को तो रुझान तो कम होगा ही| और इसके लिए जनता को दोष देना कुछ सहज व्याख्यान लगता है मुझे | मदरसा को पैसा देना बंद कर दे सरकार फिर देखे कैसे एक के बाद एक मदरसा बंद होता है |

[triam]

Political reasons. Which is why Ashok Gehlot and that loony Anbumani Ramadoss are also against 'pub culture'. The masses win you elections, not the elite. You might be comfortable with the pubs and the valentine's days. But for a huge population in india, they feel alienated as they are not a part of it. Secularism has nothing to do with this. Which is why BJP doesn't have a problem with normal Christian festivals. You might disagree with their views. But then you are in the 'elite' and most of the elite don't vote anyway. So now, can you answer my questions?

which questions? The masses may be uncomfortable with pubs, but they are not the ones who go on a rampage unless it is fuelled by politicians. Masses dont go on rampages against shopping malls, so why would they do this? Can you also explain who is elite and who are the masses?

[Guest dada_rocks]

So according to you GoI spending 1 Rupee on Mullah Brigade is same as spending Zero rupees on Hindu yatra ? And also this is perfectly in line with the definition of Secularism ?

:hysterical::hysterical: Lurker main hai bhi logic mein thora kachche.. go easy on him..:hysterical:

[TheBoyPlunger]

which questions?

Are you saying BJP is against Valentine's day on religious grounds?? That being against Valentine's Day makes a party communal?

The masses may be uncomfortable with pubs, but they are not the ones who go on a rampage unless it is fuelled by politicians. Masses dont go on rampages against shopping malls, so why would they do this? Can you also explain who is elite and who are the masses?

Why did Ashok Gehlot and Anbumani Ramadoss speak out against 'pub culture'. This being the election season why haven't any major political parties said anything abt 'pub culture'. And yes, politicians fuel the rampage - which in this case is Rama Sena. What does that have to do with BJP?? So does it mean Congress is anti-Biharis/anti-UP because of Raj Thackeray's actions??

Masses dont go on rampages against shopping malls' date=' so why would they do this? [/quote'] Subhiksha Retail chain had a lot of its stores ransacked just a few days back. And if this bad economic situation continues, our friendly neighbourhood mall could be next.

Can you also explain who is elite and who are the masses?

Masses = The people who vote based on caste, who vote based on community, people who attend those election gatherings. The illiterate, semi-literate, lower middle class, a huge section of middle class. Elite = Rich, a major section of Upper Middle Class, a section of middle class. People who light candles to mark their protest

[triam]

Are you saying BJP is against Valentine's day on religious grounds?? That being against Valentine's Day makes a party communal?

yes being against Valentines day makes a party communal, based on the definition below they are just splitting the community by class here even if it is not based on religion. Definition of communalism : "This article deals with the use of the word communalism in South Asia, as a name for a force separating different communities based on some form of social or sectarian discrimination. See the article communalism for the use of the word to denote a force uniting people into a community, as it is used in other parts of the world where English is a major language." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communalism_(South_Asia)

Why did Ashok Gehlot and Anbumani Ramadoss speak out against 'pub culture'. This being the election season why haven't any major political parties said anything abt 'pub culture'.

Ashok Gehlot and Anbumani Ramadoss are two bit thugs, who stoke up controversies in unrelated stuff when they are faced with real administrative issues, and yes they are being communal.

And yes, politicians fuel the rampage - which in this case is Rama Sena. What does that have to do with BJP?? So does it mean Congress is anti-Biharis/anti-UP because of Raj Thackeray's actions??

If the congress leadership doesnt have the balls to handle Raj Thackeray, and by all evidence they dont, yes they are being communal here.

Subhiksha Retail chain had a lot of its stores ransacked just a few days back. And if this bad economic situation continues, our friendly neighbourhood mall could be next.

As you yourself said, the reasons are economic the ones the masses really give a **** about, not about culture, it is about roti and makaan.

Masses = The people who vote based on caste, who vote based on community, people who attend those election gatherings. The illiterate, semi-literate, lower middle class, a huge section of middle class. Elite = Rich, a major section of Upper Middle Class, a section of middle class. People who light candles to mark their protest

Your definition of masses and elite dont really make sense, are you claiming elite wont vote based on caste or community? if you define by affluency level I will agree either ways my answers below. The elite rich class, maybe not the upper middle class but Upper class, always went to pubs, always celebrated Valentines day or saint peters day or whatever other reason to get drunk and party, the masses didnt bother then, why do you think they bother now? you think the masses bother and thats why the political leadership takes it on their agenda, but it is the other way around, the political leadership makes their own agenda and then stoke the masses. Seriously the masses dont care about this crap if left alone, they care about more relevant stuff like price of rice and price of oil, not who goes to which pub and which culture is spoiled by that. Either ways, I am no supporter of congress or BJP, who ever is wrong is wrong, period. IF you think Im a congress supporter you are very wrong in that.

[TheBoyPlunger]

yes being against Valentines day makes a party communal, based on the definition below they are just splitting the community by class here even if it is not based on religion. Definition of communalism : "This article deals with the use of the word communalism in South Asia, as a name for a force separating different communities based on some form of social or sectarian discrimination. See the article communalism for the use of the word to denote a force uniting people into a community, as it is used in other parts of the world where English is a major language." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communalism_(South_Asia)

The key word is discrimintation. Are you being discriminated for going to a pub or celebrating Valentine's day? And BJP is against 'pub culture' - an idea. Dissent s a democratic right, fundamentals of democracy. Going by this defintion the following would be communal - anti smoking campaigns, fight against casteism, Tax laws(differential tax % based on income levels).

Ashok Gehlot and Anbumani Ramadoss are two bit thugs, who stoke up controversies in unrelated stuff when they are faced with real administrative issues, and yes they are being communal.

One is a Chief Minister and the other is a Union Minister, so not really two bit thugs. And they are not being communal. They are just playing a political game.

If the congress leadership doesnt have the balls to handle Raj Thackeray, and by all evidence they dont, yes they are being communal here.

Again it's a political issue. They have to tread carefully because they have to face the next elections. They have to control violence while at the same time ensure that the opposition cannot label charges of being anti-Maharastrian in the next elections.

As you yourself said, the reasons are economic the ones the masses really give a **** about, not about culture, it is about roti and makaan.

The pubs and valentine's day are symbols of something they don't have and very unlikely to ever achieve(which is prosperity and affluence). It's easier to target symbolic things rather than look for a real change. In a rational world, yes they are different. But in the real world it doesn't work that way.In a rational world, nobody would have ransacked Subhiksha, but the reality is that they did.

Your definition of masses and elite dont really make sense, are you claiming elite wont vote based on caste or community? if you define by affluency level I will agree either ways my answers below. The elite rich class, maybe not the upper middle class but Upper class, always went to pubs, always celebrated Valentines day or saint peters day or whatever other reason to get drunk and party, the masses didnt bother then, why do you think they bother now? you think the masses bother and thats why the political leadership takes it on their agenda, but it is the other way around, the political leadership makes their own agenda and then stoke the masses. Seriously the masses dont care about this crap if left alone, they care about more relevant stuff like price of rice and price of oil, not who goes to which pub and which culture is spoiled by that.

With affluence and by extension education comes the ability to debate, to analyze and independent thought. And hence the definition. That gap has always been festering in the background and sometimes bursts out.For instance, the 1857 Freedom struggle doesn't mean that the idea for fight for freedom come abt only in 1857. It was festering in the background and it needs a catalyst to come out into the open. One of the easiest ways to bring abt a regime change is economic downturns.History has so many examples of regime changes occuring in periods of economic stress.

Either ways, I am no supporter of congress or BJP, who ever is wrong is wrong, period. IF you think Im a congress supporter you are very wrong in that.

The debate is on ideas and not political affiliations. While I agree broadly with you on what is right and what is wrong, I disagree on it being so strongly as black and white. There was a political party that started recently - Paritran i think based on lofty ideals and principles. And how many seats have they won??Ideally yes, they would form the government. But the reality is that the party has 0 seats and unless they change their political strategy they will end up with 0 seats forever.

[triam]

The key word is discrimintation. Are you being discriminated for going to a pub or celebrating Valentine's day? And BJP is against 'pub culture' - an idea. Dissent s a democratic right, fundamentals of democracy. Going by this defintion the following would be communal - anti smoking campaigns, fight against casteism, Tax laws(differential tax % based on income levels).

That question was to BB, the context was BJP has lofty secular goals in its agenda, and assuming that is true, as a party BJP should not get involved in this stupidity, if they do one thing there is no real difference between it and congress and secondly it is easier for outsiders to paint BJP as a religious fundamentalist party.

One is a Chief Minister and the other is a Union Minister, so not really two bit thugs. And they are not being communal. They are just playing a political game.

One got caught on tape accepting bribes, and the other one tries to remain in the news more than doing actual work, so they are two bit thugs IMO.

Again it's a political issue. They have to tread carefully because they have to face the next elections. They have to control violence while at the same time ensure that the opposition cannot label charges of being anti-Maharastrian in the next elections.

Why do they have to tread carefully? What MNS does is certifiable crimes, we need an iron fist and nip these things in the bud instead of letting it fester for long. But if Congress or whoever else does this and also does constructive stuff for Maharashtra then they would not be considered anti-maharastrian, that problem comes if they only retaliate against MNS and dont do anything to change the ground realities in other avenues (like economy poverty etc)

The pubs and valentine's day are symbols of something they don't have and very unlikely to ever achieve(which is prosperity and affluence). It's easier to target symbolic things rather than look for a real change. In a rational world, yes they are different. But in the real world it doesn't work that way.In a rational world, nobody would have ransacked Subhiksha, but the reality is that they did.

The pubs and valentines day maybe symbols they are unlikely to achieve, agreed, but they dont care dude seriously, they dont agitate against people who fly do they? or people who have cars? do they, it is the same thing. These kind of stupid **** starts in some political leaders head and then he incites the masses, not the other way around.

With affluence and by extension education comes the ability to debate, to analyze and independent thought. And hence the definition. That gap has always been festering in the background and sometimes bursts out.For instance, the 1857 Freedom struggle doesn't mean that the idea for fight for freedom come abt only in 1857. It was festering in the background and it needs a catalyst to come out into the open. One of the easiest ways to bring abt a regime change is economic downturns.History has so many examples of regime changes occuring in periods of economic stress. The debate is on ideas and not political affiliations. While I agree broadly with you on what is right and what is wrong, I disagree on it being so strongly as black and white. There was a political party that started recently - Paritran i think based on lofty ideals and principles. And how many seats have they won??Ideally yes, they would form the government. But the reality is that the party has 0 seats and unless they change their political strategy they will end up with 0 seats forever.

I dont have anything to disagree with what you say here.