King Tendulkar Posted March 28, 2009 Posted March 28, 2009 I dont have much sympathy too be honest as this is a mess they have created and continue to create. They support/back jihadi terrorists against India and others. This is supported/backed by the state as in army, isi and govt. It sadly is also well supported by the pakistan people! Thus these jihadis now attack inside pakistan and then paks claim they are victims!!! Dont work like that I am afraid. Still now pak people back the jihadis against others, so they are clearly not victims but victims of their own ideologies of terror which is well supported by the everyday folk of pakistan!
EnterTheVoid Posted March 28, 2009 Posted March 28, 2009 But why blow up mosques ? and why is it relevant whether they are shia or sunni? They're not human beings ? Had they blown up a church, I feel the response would've been favorable. Remember the Taliban blowing up the Buddha statues in Afghanistan. The senseless destruction was justified The day when places of worship, irrespective of what faith they represent, are targeted, thats the day when morality and a sense of "This is wrong. We should not do this" goes down the gutter
cochise Posted March 28, 2009 Posted March 28, 2009 The day when places of worship, irrespective of what faith they represent, are targeted, thats the day when morality and a sense of "This is wrong. We should not do this" goes down the gutter Indeed. Which gives you an insight on how bad things really have become over there.
King Tendulkar Posted March 28, 2009 Posted March 28, 2009 This is appalling news. I'm sick to death of this stuff :-( Do you support the jihadis striking in kashmir and India? Do you have any sympathy with the jihadis in Kashmr?
EnterTheVoid Posted March 28, 2009 Posted March 28, 2009 Indeed. Which gives you an insight on how bad things really have become over there. But why no uproar ? Why no outrage ? When a Palestinian mosque was destroyed by the Israeli's as part as collateral damage, there were violent protests and issuing of fatwas' and death threats against the Israeli's for being well within their rights for trying to stop rocket attacks into Israel Here, when innocents are killed purely for the sake of inflicting maximum damage, not so much as a peep. It doesn't matter because the perpetrators were Muslims? Here, justice doesn't apply ? Targeting mosques ? This makes my stomach churn
EnterTheVoid Posted March 28, 2009 Posted March 28, 2009 Do you support the jihadis striking in kashmir and India? Do you have any sympathy with the jihadis in Kashmr? There'd be sympathy if Hindus are killed as the land is being liberated from the Kuffars
hassan_113 Posted March 28, 2009 Posted March 28, 2009 Looking at the various posts- I am not a typical Pakistani because:- 1) I love the Indian people and country (albeit not government) 2) I don't kiss the rears of the Arabs like other Pakistanis 3) I understand the Kashmir issue (unlike 99% Pakistanis and Indians) and am well-versed on it and have explained it to many Pakistanis and Indians- including a Bangalorean man working here the other day Nope, these guys are retards blowing each other up (Taliban)- lets just say the Pathans are biting the hand that fed them for so long. Re: Kashmiri valley and freedom fighters. I don't support killing of innocent civilians anywhere in the world and Kashmir is no different. I have always felt upset at the fact that the Kashmiris haven't had a chance to decide their fate- like Arundhati Roy who agrees with me. I know you all have the Indian punch lines and you are blindly patriotic, but I have always dreamed of Kashmir being solved peacefully- that's surely not too hard for you to imagine. P.S. the guy saying that Paks would avoid this thread- I am not scared of posting anywhere about anything as you all might have seen. I will never shirk away from my values and principles and my knowledge supports it. Maybe you don't like me because we hold opposite political views, but I know that there may be some gruging respect for it, because I don't take anything lying down.
cochise Posted March 28, 2009 Posted March 28, 2009 I know you all have the Indian punch lines and you are blindly patriotic, but I have always dreamed of Kashmir being solved peacefully- that's surely not too hard for you to imagine. You shouldn't make assumptions. It would indeed be nice to see the Kashmir issue resolved peacefully...but in order to achieve this, one first has to create the condition of peace there for peaceful processes and representations to emerge. This cannot happen when Pakistan is training and infiltrating terrorists into Kashmir to forment trouble and destroy the peace there. The army would not have a presence there if not for this policy of the Pakistani state of using terrorists in Kashmir as an instrument of state policy. This has to stop. Then and only then will there be a drawback of troops from Kashmir and life may return to normality. There upon, can a dialogue emerge whereby the Kashmiri peoples true aspirations have voice. And not Pakistan's agenda in it's place.
hassan_113 Posted March 28, 2009 Posted March 28, 2009 If I was in charge, I would make sure no militants infiltrated IHK. I would pull out the troops, get India to pull out theirs....then divide the state into Northern Areas, Azad Kashmir, Kashmir valley, Jammu, Ladakh. Shaksgam valley and Aksai Chin uninhabited- leave them neutral. Then in each area, give them option of Pakistan or India. I would think about independence but it would not work. So give them two options and then let those 5 areas decide without presence of troops. I would have UN observers and would accept the results. Jammu and Ladakh would join India, Northern areas and Azad Kashmir join Pakistan. I reckon the Kashmiri valley would be more difficult to predict. Those areas could then officially join the country they chose and the LoC turned into an official border. This would mean less wasting of money by both countries up there- your tax money is wasted up there according to many Indian friends who call J&K a 'spoilt brat'
cochise Posted March 28, 2009 Posted March 28, 2009 Hassan, Your solution is very top down. Do you see the irony? You are dictating to them by forcing a choice on them...why not let them decide for themselves? I share your view that an independent, landlocked Kashmir will probably not work very well...but again, that is for them to decide. First, peace must be brought to Kashmir. Brutalised and radicalised people cannot make a rational and informed decision. Once that is achieved, the Kashmiris themselves can give voice to the aspirations of their people and seek a way forward. All that being said, Kashmir does not exist in a vacuum. The strategic security of India has to be taken into account in any solution and if the neighbourhood is a hostile one, then this may not be possible as things appear to stand. But peace at least should be and must be made possible by both sides.
hassan_113 Posted March 28, 2009 Posted March 28, 2009 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/Kashmir_map_big.jpg
hassan_113 Posted March 28, 2009 Posted March 28, 2009 I'm not forcing anything down on them. Jammu and Ladakh are happy with the current situation but the Valley wants to decide. The UN resolutions state that a- Pakistan must pull out its troops and b- then a plebiscite must be held. I would not actually mind an independent option, but don't think it would work well. Under my proposals, both would happen Under this proposal, neither of our countries would waste money up there and India would actually be a more secure place in the long-term :D From an Indian viewpoint, read some of Arundhati Roy's articles- very interesting. I talked to the Bangalorean man about that and he said she was very good and spoke a lot of sense. P.S. Kashmiris can make an informed choice now imo
cochise Posted March 28, 2009 Posted March 28, 2009 Under this proposal, neither of our countries would waste money up there and India would actually be a more secure place in the long-term I am not too sure that would be the case at all. You see, if China makes an independent Kashmir a vassal state of theirs, it practically advances their borders straight into the heart of India. This is what I mean when I say that Kashmir does not exist in a vacuum. Likewise, Pakistan, as things stand, will use such a state to advance their strategic aims against India as well...Pakistan is a client state of China and their interest dovetail on one aspect...they are both inimical to the idea of India as it stands...for different reasons, but they share the same goals for the present. They would turn Kashmir into another Afghanistan in the 80's. We have seen how Pakistan treated Afghanistan like it's own backyard after the soviets were defeated, calling it their "strategic depth"...would Kashmir become their strategic forward depth? From an Indian viewpoint, read some of Arundhati Roy's articles- very interesting. I talked to the Bangalorean man about that and he said she was very good and spoke a lot of sense. Arundhati Roy certainly writes very well...her English is stunning...but one must not be over awed by the grace of her writing and look to the substance. From a humanitarian point of view, it has merit. But what a lot of her writings do not take into account are how things would be different if things were not the way they are. For instance, could it be that things could be a lot worse, for everyone, not just Kashmiris, if her simplistic solutions are implemented based on a purely good intentioned impulse? Remember, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. What does this mean? It means that well intentioned people may some succumb to their own hubris and righteousness, such that they never doubt their correctness when this doubt and proper examination is very much needed to take the correct action. I find most of her political writing to be of that kind. Taking the moral high stand, convinced of her righteousness, expressing moral outrage...but dismissing the alternative. So, I find her hubris slightly off-putting. Too each their own, I suppose. But to the Kashmiris, they will have to wait for the neighbourhood to become a better place before they can choose their own I am afraid. That includes Pakistan, India and China. However, peace can and must be restored.
hassan_113 Posted March 28, 2009 Posted March 28, 2009 Cochise- I admire the way you have communicated your viewpoints about Jammu and Kashmir. If only there were more people like you and I and we might actually get somewhere! :D
cochise Posted March 28, 2009 Posted March 28, 2009 There are. And we will. When the destructive forces in society are marginalised, peoples opinions will not be so polarised. The effort therefore, must be directed at these forces that sow hatred and suspicion in order to create enmity between people. Then we will get somewhere. However, this is a huge, many faceted task. But it has to be done.
hassan_113 Posted March 28, 2009 Posted March 28, 2009 Cochise- this is a question to you only. As somebody with a Kashmiri mother, I take a great interest in the place. Do you think that people actually care about it or is it mostly a ego thing about land and potential gains/losses? I get the feeling that most people don't actually care about the people in Pak + Indian Kashmir.
cochise Posted March 28, 2009 Posted March 28, 2009 I think there are those that for which it is an ego thing and there are those for which it is not. The states closer to Kashmir have a genuine feeling for the people of Kashmir as they have interacted with them as well as the J&K people that have fled. So the answer is not so simple. Personally, I feel that Indians take great pride in the Kashmir and see it as an integral part of India. However, as with states that have problems, there is mutual suspicion on both sides. Indians feel that Kashmiris are inclined against them and likewise, Kashmiris tend to think that Indians do not care for them. Both are untrue by my reckoning. I think India and Indians have a true sense of care and feel a connection with the Kashmiris but do not feel it is reciprocated. This can also be extended to Pakistan...but the troubles between the two countries have made any groundswell of good feeling between the peoples turn to the opposite...a sense of betrayal has entrenched itself instead.
hassan_113 Posted March 28, 2009 Posted March 28, 2009 Cochise- if the self-determination happened and was fair, I would be happy. Just wish could happen :-(
cochise Posted March 28, 2009 Posted March 28, 2009 I would like the human suffering to stop as soon as possible...not only in Kashmir, but in all the areas of the subcontinent where there is killing, death and destruction. Look at what is happening in Pakistan at present. The taliban are controlling parts of the country and radicalising other parts and there appears no end to destructive acts. I am truly worried about Pakistan's integrity and I think you should be too. These are dire times indeed for Pakistan. How and in what shape it will pull through, is yet to be seen. How much damage to human lives and well being that will ensue in the interim is what really concerns me. And how it ends up shaping the future of this region, in which we are all interconnected. There can be no self-determination without an end to this needless suffering and civil strife. Then and only then, self-determination can emerge..it will take care of itself and by it's own recourse.
hassan_113 Posted March 28, 2009 Posted March 28, 2009 Maybe. It is bad what's happening. But we've been through so much....and we will get through this. I don't think USA realises we're no Iraq or Afghanistan.
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