THX_1138 Posted May 30, 2009 Posted May 30, 2009 You just made my case, if you are utterly unable to name a single incident where YOUR civil rights were impinged or violated then most probably YOUR rights weren't violated. I traveled a lot , nothing happened, Allhamdullah. Someone who was on watch, was on watch, someone who was supposed to filter out dangerous individuals on passenger manifests was doing their job. Maybe Homeland Security worked on interfacing better with Interpol and MI6. But guess what, attacks WERE thwarted like the one in JFK in June of 2007 Maybe the attack on the Jewish Synagogue was foiled because of a phone intercept, do YOU know it wasnt because of that? Now people who are of 'interest to the Government' have a reason to be worried, just like your average Mumbai don has a reason to peer over his shoulder once in a while, they contribute to terrorist organizations or they contribute to entities that are anti American, not anti-Bush or anti-Republican but I repeat anti-American.This is the reason why Obama hasnt yet closed Guantanamo because the Bush administration was right in sequestering people who upon release took up arms again against the US. You have a problem with them? Name a few we'll discuss. The law is to protect the innocent NOT to serve the guilty. Cat Stevens aka Yousuf Islam made contributions to front organizations that were funneling money to terrorist outfits. He was also busy stoking sentiments against British and American interests, not to mention his famous statements in support of the fatwa on Salman Rushdie.The guy needs to be watched. I say better safe than sorry, if 10% of the population have to undergo extra scrutiny to protect 90% so be it.Only a fool thinks everyone can be satisfied every time. Regarding the Fort Dix Six, you say they were bumbling fools so the threat wasnt as serious. Do you know how silly that sounds, we're not playing a chess game where the opponent is expected to be an exponent of Sicilian lines against the Ruy Lopez. A social outcast like the Unabomber caused havoc in Oklahoma City, had he been caught before the act would you have called him a 'bumbling' fool too? A neutral source: More than 100 terror attacks foiled ah a graduate of the donald rumsfeld school of "known knowns, unknown knowns, known unknowns and unknown unknowns"... probably a valedictorian at the unknown unknowns college... let me put it this way: if a case goes to trial, i.e. it is not dismissed immediately, if grand jury indictments are made, then the accused were provided due process. i.e. the evidence gathered was constitutionally gathered and their civil rights not violated. i.e. fisa court warrant for wiretaps, miranda rights upon arrest and subsequent due process. these are the three things that were circumvented by the arbitrary powers awarded to the DHS. but if this is not lucid enough for you to absorb, fine. you were kept safe by bush and his cronies. go fly now.
THX_1138 Posted May 30, 2009 Posted May 30, 2009 Cat Stevens aka Yousuf Islam made contributions to front organizations that were funneling money to terrorist outfits. He was also busy stoking sentiments against British and American interests, not to mention his famous statements in support of the fatwa on Salman Rushdie.The guy needs to be watched. I say better safe than sorry, if 10% of the population have to undergo extra scrutiny to protect 90% so be it.Only a fool thinks everyone can be satisfied every time. Well when you fall into the unfortunate 10% we may talk again then. As for Cat Stevens, go back and read the news article where the story that he had supported the fatwa on Rushdie was rescinded. He was exlaining the fatwa to the reporter and some idiots interpreted that to be a support for the fatwa. Furthermore, this is a man who has received numerous awards for humanitarian service, but it just happens that the religion he changed to was one currently out of favor.
Macj Posted May 30, 2009 Posted May 30, 2009 ah a graduate of the donald rumsfeld school of "known knowns' date=' unknown knowns, known unknowns and unknown unknowns"... p[b']robably a valedictorian at the unknown unknowns college... So now you know where I went to school, what I did and how I did it? Did Bush help you get that info too? 3 threads deep and his ad-hominem snide remarks surface, don't let realism hit you flat in the face now. let me put it this way: if a case goes to trial, i.e. it is not dismissed immediately, if grand jury indictments are made, then the accused were provided due process. i.e. the evidence gathered was constitutionally gathered and their civil rights not violated. i.e. fisa court warrant for wiretaps, miranda rights upon arrest and subsequent due process. these are the three things that were circumvented by the arbitrary powers awarded to the DHS. but if this is not lucid enough for you to absorb, fine.{CORRECTION} we all were kept safe for 8 years and even we can fly with confidence . The recent terror plot that was thwarted will take time to prepare and assume that not all the i's are dotted and not t's are crossed , there is a chance they'll escape justice. Will you want that?
Macj Posted May 30, 2009 Posted May 30, 2009 Well when you fall into the unfortunate 10% we may talk again then. I dont and I wont thats why im still here as free as can be talking to you who is also free to do anything he pleases.
The Outsider Posted May 30, 2009 Posted May 30, 2009 How many terror attacks happened on US soil before 9/11 that the lack of attacks afterwards is given as a justification for curb on civil liberties?
kumble_rocks Posted May 30, 2009 Posted May 30, 2009 ^ Patriot act was passed in the Congress by Democrats as well. So I don't understand what curbing of civil liberties happened in the bush administration unilaterally. I don't recall any executive order passed on this front. And even if it was passed , the supreme court would have deemed it unconstitutional.
triam Posted May 30, 2009 Posted May 30, 2009 Some of the detainees in the Gitmo prison, and who were detained for a number of years. Al Shulan - main reason for detention was for wearing a particular model of a Casio watch Al Kandari - same reason Casio watch. Al noofayee - Casio watch Badr and Dost - arrested in Afghanistan for writing satire articles about both the Taliban and the US government. Qassim Abu Baker - Detained in Camp Iguana, since 2002, as "enemy combatant;" CSRT ruled him "no longer enemy combatant" in 2004. Held pending country to accept him, due to him opposing return to China for fear of torture. Denied entry and asylum to U.S. under the INA, denied habeas corpus. Uyar Salih - Casio watch Zemmora Moza Zi - Casio watch. These people lost years in the prison, and this is just a sample. This is the exact reason why the Patriot act is a sham and will continue to be. It is not whether republicans did it or democrats did it, it is wrong. Somebody said 10% suffering for 90 is ok, so how far will that number stretch? 49% suffering ok to help 51%? And the argument that since no terror attacks were successful because of the implementation of the PAtriot act is laughable. Please look up the fallacy called "Burden of Proof"
Macj Posted May 30, 2009 Posted May 30, 2009 Some of the detainees in the Gitmo prison, and who were detained for a number of years. Al Shulan - main reason for detention was for wearing a particular model of a Casio watch Al Kandari - same reason Casio watch. Al noofayee - Casio watch Badr and Dost - arrested in Afghanistan for writing satire articles about both the Taliban and the US government. Qassim Abu Baker - Detained in Camp Iguana, since 2002, as "enemy combatant;" CSRT ruled him "no longer enemy combatant" in 2004. Held pending country to accept him, due to him opposing return to China for fear of torture. Denied entry and asylum to U.S. under the INA, denied habeas corpus. Uyar Salih - Casio watch Zemmora Moza Zi - Casio watch. These people lost years in the prison, and this is just a sample. This is the exact reason why the Patriot act is a sham and will continue to be. Back in action : http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article5594272.ece Two other former detainees sent home to Saudi Arabia from the prison in November 2007 re-emerged over the weekend on a jihadist website, railing against Britain, the US and Israel and identifying themselves by their Guantánamo detainee numbers. One of the men who appeared on video was Said Ali al-Shihri, now the deputy leader of al-Qaeda's Yemeni branch. He is suspected of involvement in a bombing at the US Embassy in the Yemeni capital Sanaa in September, which killed 16. “By Allah, imprisonment only increased our persistence in our principles for which we went out, did jihad for, and were imprisoned for,” al-Shihri said on the video. The other former inmate has been identified as Abu Hareth Muhammad al-Awfi, who is seen clutching an automatic rifle and a grenade.
triam Posted May 30, 2009 Posted May 30, 2009 Back in action : http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article5594272.ece How does this relate to what I posted? I never claimed everyone in gitmo was innocent or doesnt deserve punishment did I?
kumble_rocks Posted May 30, 2009 Posted May 30, 2009 How does this relate to what I posted? I never claimed everyone in gitmo was innocent or doesnt deserve punishment did I? If Patriot act is such a sham why did liberals support it ? This was passed in the Congress mind you !
THX_1138 Posted May 30, 2009 Posted May 30, 2009 ^ Patriot act was passed in the Congress by Democrats as well. So I don't understand what curbing of civil liberties happened in the bush administration unilaterally. I don't recall any executive order passed on this front. And even if it was passed ' date=' the supreme court would have deemed it unconstitutional.[/quote'] the supreme court cannot adjudicate an act of congress as unconstitutional unless it is brought before it by a third party. unlike in india, the court does not provide a sort of judicial review as is the procedure in india.
THX_1138 Posted May 30, 2009 Posted May 30, 2009 If Patriot act is such a sham why did liberals support it ? This was passed in the Congress mind you ! it received unanimous support in the wake of 2001 september 11 when the nation had bought into the "either you are with us or against us" argument. at that time though, it was opposed by senator feingold and congressman ron paul. however, when the patriot act required renewal, it passed along partisan lines at a time when republicans held both houses and the presidency of course. it is almost certain to fail if anyone is silly enough to introduce it under the current paradigm.
THX_1138 Posted May 30, 2009 Posted May 30, 2009 Back in action : http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article5594272.ece you would be pissed off as well if you were illegally detained for over eight years. nonetheless, have you never heard of rehabilitated prisoners? does anyone who has been in prison emerge reformed, devoid of a desire for vengeance remorseful and ready for moral society? besides this is 2 bad apples out of nearly 500...
Macj Posted May 30, 2009 Posted May 30, 2009 you would be pissed off as well if you were illegally detained for over eight years. nonetheless, have you never heard of rehabilitated prisoners? does anyone who has been in prison emerge reformed, devoid of a desire for vengeance remorseful and ready for moral society? besides this is 2 bad apples out of nearly 500... 2 that we know of, maybe the Department of Homeland Security will sniff out more courtesy you know what.
Macj Posted May 31, 2009 Posted May 31, 2009 ...the more than three dozen released ' date=' that no other country wants because of the security threat they bring.[/quote']
THX_1138 Posted May 31, 2009 Posted May 31, 2009 actually you fool, those three dozen (39 or so) were all accepted by their respective nations of origin.
Recommended Posts