The Outsider Posted July 20, 2009 Posted July 20, 2009 I was thinking about why India desists from taking a strong stance against Pakistan and cut off all diplomatic ties till certain conditions are met? The recent meeting between Manmohan Singh and Geelani was a bit of a farce when Pakistan has done nothing concrete and substantial on India's demands. Are there any genuine reasons for India not taking a proper and firm stance on this? One thing I could think of is India's cutting diplomatic ties will result in losing a hold with the OPEC and OIC. India has historically had good ties with OPEC and a substantial number of OIC countries. There isn't any substantial trade or cross border movements of population between the two countries, so the financial and social impacts are minimal. Is it the pressure from US which prevents us from doing so, are there any other genuine reasons which can negatively impact India and it's global standing? Do we avoid doing it so that we are not perceived as an unreasonable wannabe superpower in the region?
suraj Posted July 20, 2009 Posted July 20, 2009 Biggest reason for not cutting ties is that there are some (even if very few across the border) sane people that exist across the border
DomainK Posted July 20, 2009 Posted July 20, 2009 Biggest reason for not cutting ties is that there are some (even if very few across the border) sane people that exist across the border That's a ridiculous reason. This is Indian government and it's only priority should the those who elected it. There is no lack of good people in various parts of the world and they have their respective governments.
DomainK Posted July 20, 2009 Posted July 20, 2009 I was thinking about why India desists from taking a strong stance against Pakistan and cut off all diplomatic ties till certain conditions are met? The recent meeting between Manmohan Singh and Geelani was a bit of a farce when Pakistan has done nothing concrete and substantial on India's demands. Are there any genuine reasons for India not taking a proper and firm stance on this? One thing I could think of is India's cutting diplomatic ties will result in losing a hold with the OPEC and OIC. India has historically had good ties with OPEC and a substantial number of OIC countries. There isn't any substantial trade or cross border movements of population between the two countries, so the financial and social impacts are minimal. Is it the pressure from US which prevents us from doing so, are there any other genuine reasons which can negatively impact India and it's global standing? Do we avoid doing it so that we are not perceived as an unreasonable wannabe superpower in the region? Pushing things a bit too far can have consequences. And I am sure that India's strategies against Pakistan are part of a larger strategy from several other governments (though we remain the most affected). You don't push a fanatic country with nuclear weapons to the limits of desperation. Such things are solved over a long period of time. There are no short cuts. With the Taliban looking for a foothold, pushing the incompetent and corrupt authorities running the machinery in Pakistan will eventually end up giving way to Taliban for some bucks. And you don't want them come anywhere close to the nuclear weapons that Pakistan has.
Macj Posted July 20, 2009 Posted July 20, 2009 I was thinking about why India desists from taking a strong stance against Pakistan and cut off all diplomatic ties till certain conditions are met? The recent meeting between Manmohan Singh and Geelani was a bit of a farce when Pakistan has done nothing concrete and substantial on India's demands. Are there any genuine reasons for India not taking a proper and firm stance on this? One thing I could think of is India's cutting diplomatic ties will result in losing a hold with the OPEC and OIC. India has historically had good ties with OPEC and a substantial number of OIC countries. There isn't any substantial trade or cross border movements of population between the two countries, so the financial and social impacts are minimal. Is it the pressure from US which prevents us from doing so, are there any other genuine reasons which can negatively impact India and it's global standing? Do we avoid doing it so that we are not perceived as an unreasonable wannabe superpower in the region? Breaking off diplomatic ties usually occurs just prior to entering a state of war or imminent threat thereof. Its extremely dangerous posturing not to mention it puts our allies in a p r ickly position of who to support. Further in the case of Pakistan its not at all required as diplomatic isolation and pushing our agenda forward successfully has worked wonders. Just see where Pakistan lies diplomatically at the present time for confirmation.
Lurker Posted July 20, 2009 Posted July 20, 2009 No you can not cut off diplomatic ties with a country in the region, let alone your neighbours. You are basically joined at the hip whether you like it or not. Think for instance the whole Baglihar Dam issue. How can two countries discuss water sharing issue when they do not have a channel to discuss in the first place? This issue would affect millions directly, if handled correctly of course. You can not stop trade between the countries, unless you want smugglers to make millions(think of how Dawood has made all his money from Bollywood from the whole Bombay-Dubai-Karachi route). Plus of course as history has taught us shunning a country never helps, it only gives the belligerent nation another cause for getting crazy.
THX_1138 Posted July 20, 2009 Posted July 20, 2009 The question that must be asked instead is: what purpose would severing ties with Pakistan serve? would it stun them into action? or inaction with respect to the terrorism exporting? We need dialogue. Stephen Hawking once remarked that humanity was only marginally more advanced than animals and other then contemporary mammals, and were just as susceptible to predators as any herbivore in the forests is today... and then suddenly there was an explosion: an explosion of knowledge of intelligence, and it was inspired by one singular event: human beings began to talk. we began to communicate, to speak, to share and to listen... thus, he argued, that all the problems of the world might be solved, if we just learn to talk to each other.
The Outsider Posted July 21, 2009 Author Posted July 21, 2009 Pushing things a bit too far can have consequences. And I am sure that India's strategies against Pakistan are part of a larger strategy from several other governments (though we remain the most affected). You don't push a fanatic country with nuclear weapons to the limits of desperation. Such things are solved over a long period of time. There are no short cuts. With the Taliban looking for a foothold' date=' pushing the incompetent and corrupt authorities running the machinery in Pakistan will eventually end up giving way to Taliban for some bucks. And you don't want them come anywhere close to the nuclear weapons that Pakistan has.[/quote'] Agree with you in principle. However, there is very little actual impact a severance of diplomatic relations will have on the two countries, besides truncating the bus/train service and whatever little trade that happens between the countries. On the other hand, if India does cut off diplomatic ties, it's not like the Taliban and other extremists will start to declare it as their governments failure. In fact, many would just say, that's what we wanted anyways. I just don't see the immediate connection between cessation of diplomatic relations and Taliban gaining power. Can you elaborate on that? Breaking off diplomatic ties usually occurs just prior to entering a state of war or imminent threat thereof. Its extremely dangerous posturing not to mention it puts our allies in a p r ickly position of who to support. Further in the case of Pakistan its not at all required as diplomatic isolation and pushing our agenda forward successfully has worked wonders. Just see where Pakistan lies diplomatically at the present time for confirmation. Aren't we already in a state of proxy war? What's wrong in accepting it and trying to find solutions around it rather than continue to have these farcical talks we've been having for decades. India-Pakistan diplomacy is at a stage where even the Simla agreement is not respected by Pakistan. What are we actually gaining through this charade of diplomacy? I agree with you on the point of our allies and non committed nations and did mention it through OPEC/OIC in my OP. That is one negative, no doubt. No you can not cut off diplomatic ties with a country in the region, let alone your neighbours. You are basically joined at the hip whether you like it or not. Think for instance the whole Baglihar Dam issue. How can two countries discuss water sharing issue when they do not have a channel to discuss in the first place? This issue would affect millions directly, if handled correctly of course. You can not stop trade between the countries, unless you want smugglers to make millions(think of how Dawood has made all his money from Bollywood from the whole Bombay-Dubai-Karachi route). Plus of course as history has taught us shunning a country never helps, it only gives the belligerent nation another cause for getting crazy. There are hundreds of issues which have supposedly been discussed and are under discussion between the two countries over the past few decades. The water issue has been part of talks for more than 40 years and nothing is going to get resolved overnight anyways. Trade? I doubt there is any significant trade volume between India and Pakistan. Shunning South Africa did help, didn't it? Don't you think there is possibility of a positive political impact in Pakistan if people see their country being shunned for their policies which are denounced around the world anyways? The question that must be asked instead is: what purpose would severing ties with Pakistan serve? would it stun them into action? or inaction with respect to the terrorism exporting? We need dialogue. Stephen Hawking once remarked that humanity was only marginally more advanced than animals and other then contemporary mammals, and were just as susceptible to predators as any herbivore in the forests is today... and then suddenly there was an explosion: an explosion of knowledge of intelligence, and it was inspired by one singular event: human beings began to talk. we began to communicate, to speak, to share and to listen... thus, he argued, that all the problems of the world might be solved, if we just learn to talk to each other. I agree with the Stephen Hawking quote, but feel that you are taking the communication aspect of it too literally. Not speaking with someone and giving him clear reasons why you are not doing so is also communication. It's a signal to the other that things have gone way overboard and I am putting a stop to this till you can fulfill some of my legitimate demands, which other countries would testify are legitimate. We have tried wars and diplomacy over so many years and have gained nothing. Why not give severing all ties a shot as well?
Lurker Posted July 22, 2009 Posted July 22, 2009 Shunning South Africa did help, didn't it? Don't you think there is possibility of a positive political impact in Pakistan if people see their country being shunned for their policies which are denounced around the world anyways? Purely from sports angle no it did not help. Remember how India refused to play South Africa in the finals of Davis Cup 1974 and essentially handed them Davis Cup win? A good case of how Indian sporting history would have been different had India been the world champion. But of course I make that statement in a bit of jest. One can not compare South Africa with Pakistan. The latter is our neighbour the former is not. It is one thing to not speak to someone who resides in a different city than you. It is completely different to not speak to someone who is your next door neighbour. Whatever he does, does not do, affects your daily life and you have got to be in a position to work things out..even if you are the only one trying at times. xxx
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