Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team

[CC1981]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team

How about this tradition of congregataing anywhere everywhere being a sunna

Mate, i am talking to a muslim here. Two people, who've read the koran, know the koran are talking. So why is a fellow like you, who knows fack-all about the koran except from second-hand sources, get into this ? Take these very simple words from me since it is really addressing the issue : If you aint a muslim, don't bother trying to debate the Koran with me. I am not interested in discussing it with people like you who know very little of it. Kapische ?

Again advertisement part is warranted by hadith so they are just being religious if u don't like it's ur problem.

yes i know. I happen to know what that hadith is called too. Do you ? i already qualified my comments by saying 'Koran'.You don't see me mentioning the hadiths, do you ? If you wanna talk about the hadith's corrupting influence on Islam to make what was already a dodgy faith far worse, just like the Talmund did to Judaism, save your breath- i have been down that road a long time ago with people who knew what they were talking about.

[kabira]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team Guys, lets stick to the topic...

[Rajiv]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team

4 years ago the Pak team were on paper as good as they are now if not better. They could, quite realistically, have lost to Ireland say in the 03 WC. Every non Pakistani would have said ' thats just super-inconsistent Pak being them selves' ( The Pakistanis of course, would have said it was fixed) Now however they lose and religion or 'over religious zeal' becomes an easy scapegoat...when essentially it is the same Pak team with that same tendency to slip from the sublime to the ridiculous with great ease.

I wonder how many people would have blamed that loss on all the clubbing and pubing? Just like people are coming up with statements such as the young players are being forced to pray i can here argue that the young players of the 90s were influenced to go to night club and smoke then how come media didn't portray that as something negative? For the youngsters growing up in PAK i would rather have their "heroes" to be pious Muslims than to be pot smoking clubbers and pubbers! So from that stand point i am really glad that unlike the teams of the yesteryears this team has a soul to which the youngsters could look up to!

It's probably due to the post-911 effect, Muslims have obviously been hurt and want to portray their beliefs as much as they can in public. IIRC, it's not the Pakistani cricket players but few of Pakistani singers or actors have taken to religion too. I bet Wasim, Imran et al were praying too but in their rooms. Just a solitary kiss on the ground was enough after a win. Remember they were chanting allah-hoo after the 92 WC in the dressing room as well Why is a clubber or pubber seen in a bad way? don't we all goto pubs, does that mean we are bad people. I can be a religious person and be evil too

[CC1981]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team

I bet Wasim, Imran et al were praying too but in their rooms.

I know people who know/have known Wasim & Imran personally/professionally amongst several other subcontinental players...so lets just say don't be too sure that Wasim & Imran were praying during their playing careers...Imran atleast till he got really old and was practically a batsman who bowled part time..Wasim..hell, i don't think he genuinely prays even today.

[Rajiv]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team Joy, let's see it this way. They knew what they achieved by praying privately and never wanted to show it off However close a friend might be, I doubt they knew everything about them

[CC1981]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team True enough, Rajeev. I am just saying that based on how people perceived them, Wasim & Imran came off very far from Islam's ideals, particularly when it came to womanizing and boozing it up. But whatever they did, they kept it private. They didnt start a discotheque or jazz bar in the dressing room..that'd be on par with what Inzy and his mullahs were/are doing.

[Guest dada_rocks]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team

Mate, i am talking to a muslim here. Two people, who've read the koran, know the koran are talking. So why is a fellow like you, who knows fack-all about the koran except from second-hand sources, get into this ? Take these very simple words from me since it is really addressing the issue : If you aint a muslim, don't bother trying to debate the Koran with me. I am not interested in discussing it with people like you who know very little of it. Kapische ?

U know $hit about islam other than ur freaking communzai crap.

yes i know. I happen to know what that hadith is called too. Do you ? i already qualified my comments by saying 'Koran'.You don't see me mentioning the hadiths, do you ? If you wanna talk about the hadith's corrupting influence on Islam to make what was already a dodgy faith far worse, just like the Talmund did to Judaism, save your breath- i have been down that road a long time ago with people who knew what they were talking about.

Who the fcuk are u to tell them what is corrupt and what is not.. it's their call clown. ..

[Guest dada_rocks]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team

I bet Wasim' date=' Imran et al were praying too but in their rooms.[/quote'] I know people who know/have known Wasim & Imran personally/professionally amongst several other subcontinental players...so lets just say don't be too sure that Wasim & Imran were praying during their playing careers...Imran atleast till he got really old and was practically a batsman who bowled part time..Wasim..hell, i don't think he genuinely prays even today.

This bolded part qualifies rest of the part as utter crap..

[Guest dada_rocks]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team

I wonder how many people would have blamed that loss on all the clubbing and pubing?

IWhat are u on, it gets blamed all the time in more or less every sport surprise surprise nobody gets fatwa issued on their head like PJ Mir.

[Predator_05]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team

U know $hit about islam other than ur freaking communzai *****. Who the fcuk are u to tell them what is corrupt and what is not.. it's their call clown. ..

What is with the flowery language, DR ? You know, it's possible to get your point across without resorting to abuse. Quit it

[Guest dada_rocks]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team

U know $hit about islam other than ur freaking communzai *****. Who the fcuk are u to tell them what is corrupt and what is not.. it's their call clown. ..

What is with the flowery language, DR ? You know, it's possible to get your point across without resorting to abuse. Quit it

I know but this guy has ben asking for this today with too many personal abuses and it seems he has got free rein from mods so thought I will experiment a little too ...

[Guest dada_rocks]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team

Why is a clubber or pubber seen in a bad way? don't we all goto pubs, does that mean we are bad people. I can be a religious person and be evil too

In fact religious persons are more likely to be evil, just look around.

[CC1981]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team

U know $hit about islam other than ur freaking communzai *****.

Feel free to put that to test if you wish. As i said, anytime anywhere. And again, since you are a stickler for accuracy, or atleast, want to pretend as one, each assertion about Islam qualified with the respective book (Hadith/Koran) in mind. Anytime you wanna tango, i am game, boss. And for a stickler of facts, you sure know how to come up with self-contradictory terms like 'communazi'. I wonder if the word 'scientist' is qualified by 'psuedo' in front of it in your case.

Who the fcuk are u to tell them what is corrupt and what is not.. it's their call clown. ..

Ask and ye shall recieve. Every single islamic scholar you will ever come across- regardless of denomination- will consider hadiths to be corrupted. Some will accept only a few hadiths, some will accept many hadiths and very select few reject hadiths alltogether. But at the end of the day, you will not find a muslim scholar who accepts all hadiths. That is what i meant and i am fairly certain, the person who KNOWS about this stuff and was intended towards ( MP), got it.

[Sooda]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team

How would you, a muslim, feel if you were asked to suspend 20 min of your life five times a day, everyday, so that your largely hindu 'infidel' teammates go pray to Jagannath or something ?

I was asked that already... >>Bheembhai wrote: Quote: Would you be ok with such a thing if the Non-Muslims did this to you at your work/school/wherever ... ? >>Having studied in a Church of England School and having had to take part in hymn singing and church dos (for want of a better word)...and having stood in school assemblies in India (much longer than how long muslim prayers would take I can assure you) with everyone singing bhajans etc- YES I was/would be ok. All Bob and Danish had to do was wait- 10 mins at the most- NOT as much 20 really. Its not like THEY were forced to take part in the prayers or convert. For the Muslim players prayers are a duty, they should ( and I'm sure DID) appreciate that sense of duty just as I could appreciate that I was studying in Hindu/Xian schools which took religion seriously and as per school rules I had to be at said assemblies etc.

Who are you or any other Muslim to pass judgements on whats good or whats not? From the little that I know of Islam, its a religion of free will and Allah is the sole judge.

Im passing no judgment whatsoever. To pray is a command to us from God- so it is HIS judgment. As Muslims it is our duty to ensure that other Muslims follow that command (not to mention generally not do wrong)

And thats not pressure? Are you pretending to be naive here? You are made to alter whatever you are doing at least 5 times a day for 20 minutes because your colleagues belong to a different religion and its not pressure to join them? Really!!!

As Ive said before why, how, can they give up their faith- a key, fundamental aspect of their faith anyway- just for those two. They cannot. And I say again we really don't know how uncomfortable Bob and Kaneria felt with this. The issue bob did have was with the divide between the less and more religious lot- from what i understand ( divisions in the Pakistan cricket team - who would have thought eh??) Why should there have been pressure to join them? As far as I am aware Kaneria is quite religious and Im sure secure in his faith. If there was Bob would have left/ spoken out a long time ago.

FYI' date=' according to the Koran and Koran alone, prayer can be done perfectly well in private. Group prayers are explicitly called for to mark special occasions- such as Friday, Eid-Al-Fitr, Eid-Al-Adha, tec etc.

Thats incorrect CC. Praying in congregation is recommended for all 5 prayers. As far as the azan is concerned the Prophet initially used to use a bell to announce the times for prayer before coming upon this. The use of loudspeakers to give it now is obviously a new thing- and when it gets late (or early) it is not said loudly. Also it is only the azan that is said loudly in non muslim countries not the rest of the prayer. Not to mention the fact that numerous mosques do not give the azan over a speaker but just inside the mosque alone. I guess the point of it is to stick to the sunnah of the Prophet. It was necessary in his time to announce the call for prayer. It is not therefore an attempt to 'flaunt' Islam.

You cant just walk into the middle of a sports stadium and start praying to your God en masse.

Please. That never happened. All those pics posted are in training sessions when/where it must have been easier for everyone to congregate. The number of people there ASIDE from the Pak team must be minimal- if there are any at all. I will say this- In his interview Mir said that the players prayed near swimming pools with girls in bikinis around etc- needless to say it would be far better for them to have prayed in the privacy of their rooms etc. That they chose not to is strange, and yes maybe they were publicizing it... Also its great to see how this thread has evolved. The key ( and ONLY) issue is Bobs contention that religion has come in the way of Pak performances- ( and possibly the coercion that younger players apparently underwent) something I have tried to stick to but everyone else has gone on random tangents. One final word about Tabhleeghi Jamat- It is NOT- repeat NOT- a radical group- FAR from it. The most non radical, apolitical Islamic group you can find. Their only concern is strengthening the faith of other fellow MUSLIMS.

[Gaurav]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team

Every single islamic scholar you will ever come across- regardless of denomination- will consider hadiths to be corrupted. Some will accept only a few hadiths, some will accept many hadiths and very select few reject hadiths alltogether. But at the end of the day, you will not find a muslim scholar who accepts all hadiths. That is what i meant and i am fairly certain, the person who KNOWS about this stuff and was intended towards ( MP), got it.

That don't mean anything. Even the Quran is corrupted. Mo most probably suffered from epilepsy or schizophrenia. Mo was no prophet. Not that there ever have been or ever will be any prophets. So the argument about how corrupted Hadiths or Quran got with passage of time is meaningless in a way.

[Gaurav]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team

To pray is a command to us from God- so it is HIS judgment.

When the f@k did you get this command? Was it broadcast on TV by Santa? Jeez man it's amazing the kind of stuff people believe as a result of years of brainwashing

[Anakin]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team

Every single islamic scholar you will ever come across- regardless of denomination- will consider hadiths to be corrupted. Some will accept only a few hadiths, some will accept many hadiths and very select few reject hadiths alltogether. But at the end of the day, you will not find a muslim scholar who accepts all hadiths. That is what i meant and i am fairly certain, the person who KNOWS about this stuff and was intended towards ( MP), got it.

That don't mean anything. Even the Quran is corrupted. Mo most probably suffered from epilepsy or schizophrenia. Mo was no prophet. Not that there ever have been or ever will be any prophets. So the argument about how corrupted Hadiths or Quran got with passage of time is meaningless in a way.

Careful dude, you're saying stuff that will be denied in blind faith and complete absence of common sense and logic. BTW, allah in all his omniscience couldn't solve one simple problem of dividing up the properties after one's death, one of the kaliphs had to fix it :lmao:

[Sooda]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team This thread ceased to be one on cricket a long time ago...it has no place here.

[Anakin]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team Excuse me, you're proud of pak hypocrites to flaunt their religion in the GAME of cricket, but of course no one can make any remarks right?

[CC1981]

Re: Woolmer complained about OTT Islam in team

The key ( and ONLY) issue is Bobs contention that religion has come in the way of Pak performances- ( and possibly the coercion that younger players apparently underwent) something I have tried to stick to but everyone else has gone on random tangents.

I feel that is not an issue at all and i think you and MP have misunderstood the position of most people on this thread. The issue is not whether religion has come in the way of PAK performances. Its not whether religion has aided PAK performances. The issue is religion and sports dont mix and sports should never be the medium for you to prosthelyse your religion. THAT is the main reason we have problems with all this displays of piousness in public by the PAK team.

It was necessary in his time to announce the call for prayer.

Was it also necessary in his time to confuse the difference between announcement and speech ? I don't get how it is an 'announcement' when you read the whole prayer on loudspeakers. Its like saying 'i am announcing the debate between materialism & non-materialism' and then proceeding to have the entire debate on the spot. How is that an 'announcement' ?

As Muslims it is our duty to ensure that other Muslims follow that command

So it is the duty of muslims to not respect personal freedom ? Is Islam about your personal salvation or is it about having a police-order in religion ?