the dreaded question.

[cochise]

And don't forget Kalari Payattu, the pre-cursor of all Eastern Martial arts.

[CC1981]

the pre-cursor of all Eastern Martial arts.

Errr........that is a claim along the lines of '30% of docs in US are Indians, 20% engineers in US are Indians' etc etc.....There is no basis in Kalari being the precursor of eastern martial arts and our own Indian historians note that Kalari wasn't even a fully developed martial art till the 11th Century AD.

[cochise]

Well...the precursor to Kalari Payatuu then...it is quite well known (correct me if I am wrong) that Martial Arts were taken to China by, I think, Padhmasambhava, a Buddhist monk, where it was practised in the Shaolin temple as exercises. Then it was refined by the chinese into the multifarious martial arts that we see today. Perhaps, you could be right, that Kalari payattu may not be this original form...but I would venture to say that it evolved from the same source. Do correct me if I am wrong. I would like to learn. Cheers.

that is a claim along the lines of '30% of docs in US are Indians, 20% engineers in US are Indians'

You mean that's not true? Blow me dead! And here I was believing all these stats that are sent around. What are the correct estimates...do you have any idea?

[CC1981]

it is quite well known (correct me if I am wrong) that Martial Arts were taken to China by, I think, Padhmasambhava, a Buddhist monk, where it was practised in the Shaolin temple as exercises.

Actually no, the earliest info on martial arts in China comes from the warring states period, which is contemporary of the Buddha himself. Check wikipedia on this.

What are the correct estimates...do you have any idea?

Miniscule, really.

[cochise]

Okay, will take your word for it...but check this out...(it was not Padhmasambhava, it was Bodhidharma)... http://www.newsfinder.org/site/more/shaolin_temple_hometown_of_chinese_wugong/

Bodhidharma was born around 440 A.D. in Kanchi, the capital of the Southern Indian kingdom of Pallava. He was a Brahman by birth, the third child of King Sugandha, was a member of the Kshatriya or warrior caste, and had his childhood in Conjeeveram (also Kanchipuram or Kancheepuram), a Buddhist province south of Madras. He received his religious training from the Dhyana Master Prajnatara, and was considered very wise in the way of Dhyana or Zen practices. Da Mo is said to also have been proficient in Kalaripayat (an ancient karate-like art that was influenced itself by vajramushti) which while including some weaponry included weaponless forms that were practiced in conjunction with the controlled breathing techniques of pranayama. Pranayama is part of the “Eightfold Path of Discipline” in Astanga yoga. In most of East Asia, today, Da Mo is revered as the spiritual father of Zen Buddhism, having been the twenty-eighth patriarch after Sakyamuni (the historic Buddha) and the first patriarch of Zen Buddhism in China. He started what eventually became the Ch’an school of Buddhism in China. He is also the founder of a weaponless fighting art that was the precursor of modern-day martial arts. During the Chinese Southern Liang dynasty [502-557 A.D.] the Emperor Liang Wu invited the Buddhist monk Da Mo to preach Buddhism in China. Da Mo arrived in China around 520 A.D., although accounts have it that he arrived during the Sung dynasty (420-479 A.D.), and eventually met Emperor Wu at Chin-ling (now Nanking). When Da Mo met Emperor Wu, the Emperor asked, “What is the holy ultimate truth?” Da Mo answered, “It is Emptiness itself and there is nothing holy.” “Who then is the one who at present stands confronting me,” responded the Emperor? “I do not know (fushiki, pu-shih)!” was Da Mo’s response. This now-famous question-and-answer dialogue “I know not,” is considered a reverent allegory for explaining specific Zen tenets. After the Emperor decided he did not like Da Mo’s Buddhist theory/answer, Da Mo withdrew to a Shaolin Temple, in Honan Province. Entering the temple he saw that the priests in an emaciated condition, were weak and sickly, so he shut himself away to ponder the problem. When he emerged after nine years of seclusion, some say he wrote two classics: Yi Gin Ching or I Chin Ching (Muscle/Tendon Changing Classic) and Shii Soei Ching or Hsi Sui Chin (Marrow Washing Classic). Others say that he secreted the two works in the walls of the temple, and that they were found only after his demise. Hsi Sui Chin, was said to have been transcribed by Do Mo’s disciple Hui K’o and is said to have been lost to the world. The second work, I Chin Ching, has been translated several times, thereby clouding its actual origination. Regardless, Da Mo’s teachings instructed the Shaolin priests how to gain health and change their physical bodies from weak to strong (muscle/tendon changing), and taught the priests how to use Qi to strengthening the blood and immune system, and to energize the brain and attain enlightenment (marrow washing). The basis of these works, the physical drills of which are called Shihpa Lohan Shou, or Eighteen Hands of the Lohan (Buddha), were incorporated into the Shaolin Qi Gong and martial arts (what became known as Kung Fu - which is pronounced gung-fu, or, Shaolin Wu Gong in Mandarin and which in Japanese is Shorinji kempo) training of the times. At the present time, Lohan is used to designate all famous disciples of the historic Buddha, but more generally the term refers to those five hundred arhats (Sanskrit term for those who have achieved nirvana) who are supposed to reappear on earth as Buddha. Several decades after Da Mo’s death a Quan Fa master named Chueh Yan Shang-jen combined and increased Da Mo’s original eighteen hand-and-foot positions to seventy-two. Ch’uen then met with a Shensi Province martial arts master, Li-shao. The two further enlarged Ch’uen’s 72 “strokes” to 170 and gave the best of them names such as the tiger, leopard, dragon, snake and crane. Most Quan Fa forms practiced today, are the descendants of the 170 (173) hand-foot positions of Ch’ueh Yan and can be traced further, back to the eighteen positions of Da Mo. Also based directly on Da Mo’s Shaolin Quan Fa is Kosho-ryu (or “Old Pine Tree Style") kempo. In essence, the ideals of Zen Buddhism as expounded by Da Mo are fundamental to the physical manifestations of the Kosho-ryu fighting art. The development of restraint, propriety, humbleness and integrity are the cornerstones of Kosho-ryu kempo, with the actual combat techniques merely one of the many modes of reaching these goals. Da Mo is thought to have died around 534 A.D.

By this reckoning, Kalari Payattu was the pre-cursor for Kung-Fu, which forms a basis for many of the more sophisticated and structured forms of martial arts in China...and from China to Japan and Korea and South_east asia. So, perhaps, I was not all wrong eh? Hey, I was squizzing around the net on those stats as well...found this: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/36_of_scientists_at_NASA_are_Indians_Govt_survey/articleshow/2853178.cms

The extent to which desis have made an impact in the US was reeled off in the Rajya Sabha — as many as 12% scientists and 38% doctors in the US are Indians, and in NASA, 36% or almost 4 out of 10 scientists are Indians. If that's not proof enough of Indian scientific and corporate prowess, digest this: 34% employees at Microsoft, 28% at IBM, 17% at Intel and 13% at Xerox are Indians. And the House of Elders also heard some startling facts about a country that's still stuck with a Third World tag — 20% of gold in the world is used by Indians and nine out of 10 diamonds used in the world are made in India. The figures of Indian successes were given to the Rajya Sabha on Monday by D Purandeshwari, minister of state for HRD, in defence of the country's higher education system and the state of research.

You reckon they could be lying in the Rajya Sabha and that too by a cabinet minister? Surely he would get pulled up about it by the opposition...huge political opportunity for them to slam him if so...couldn't get the references from the article though. You sure you're right about the stats of Indians in such positions being miniscule? This census puts the Indian community on top in the US on a number of gauges, which lends tangential support to the above claim: http://www.census.gov/prod/2004pubs/censr-17.pdf quoted in http://www.garamchai.com/statistics.htm

According to the study, Asian Indians (so termed to distinguish them from American Indians) numbered 1.65 million in the 2000 census when counted alone, and 1.85 million in combination with other races (say mixed with Americans or Africans). About 75 per cent of Indians are foreign-born and 24.6 per cent are US-born. In comparison, and reflecting their older immigrant status, nearly 60 per cent of Japanese in America are US born. Around 54 per cent of Indians entered the US after 1990, marking the '90s as the boom decade for Indian immigration. Asian-Indians had among the lowest median age (30.3) compared to the national median of 35 and Asian median of 33. They also had among the least number of people in the over-65 age category (3.8 per cent) compared to the national average of 12.4 per cent. But it is in the area of education and professional achievement that the Indians are a class apart. According to the study, 63.9 per cent of Indians have a Bachelor's degree or more, compared to 44 per cent for Asians and a nationwide 24.4 per cent who have a Bachelor's degree or more. Indians were also most likely to be employed - 79.1 per cent Indian men and 54 per cent Indian women were part of the US labor force. Indians had the highest percentage of people (60 per cent) in management, professional and related services compared to 44 per cent overall for Asians and 34 per cent nationwide. The study also bears out the oft-repeated claim of Indians being among the highest earners. Indian men had the highest year round full-time median earnings ($51,900) eclipsing the Japanese ($50,900) and well ahead of the national average ($37,057) and the Asian average ($40,650). Separately, Indian women were only marginally behind Japanese women in median earnings ($35,998 vs $35,173). Overall, the Japanese had the highest median family income ($70,849) followed closely by Indians ($70,708). Both were way ahead of the national average of $50,046.

[cochise]

And lets not forget wrestling before it became entertainment. Here is a great champion of the past...he was written of as a World Champion of the period...a fascinating read actually: The Great Gama: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Gama Some others of the period: http://ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_noble_0502.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pehlwani And a modern day champion entertainment wrestler that is amongst the hugest around: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Khali