beetle Posted December 15, 2006 Share Posted December 15, 2006 Re: Indian army's biggest enemy All of us have recieved subsidised education in college...how many of us have a life time commitment bond with the govt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted December 15, 2006 Share Posted December 15, 2006 Re: Indian army's biggest enemy All of us have recieved subsidised education in college...how many of us have a life time commitment bond with the govt. That reminds me of an experience which most of IT people would attest to. My first job was with TCS(Tata Consultancy Services). They had a bond of 3 years at the time(late 90's) and it was specially valid if you went abroad. If you did, you were supposed to come back and serve in India twice that time. In other words if you were in US for 3 months you came to India and worked 6 months. I think there was a max ceiling of 3 years or something(for this I leave myself open to correction). Of all major IT companies(TCS, Infosys, Wipro) TCS had a bad name because of this. Most IT people would know what I am talking about. I for one cannot remember anyone ever mentioning how much TCS spent for our training, how it gave us the platform and the chance to go abroad, and how to work with latest technologies and all. Of course that was about us. But when it comes to others we suddenly have different standards. xxxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gator Posted December 15, 2006 Share Posted December 15, 2006 Re: Indian army's biggest enemy u cannot equate patriotism to a company with patriotism to one's countrry.... in the case of TCS, it is more like, u wipe my azz and i will wipe urs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dada_rocks Posted December 16, 2006 Share Posted December 16, 2006 Re: Indian army's biggest enemy If they are committing suicide because people in private sector are makng more money then I am sorry to say before joining IAF they should have thought about it ' date=' [b']you can't get free top-notch training on govt dime which runs close to 10 crores for every fighter pilot, and say that i want to now leave the job and join private sector. Private airlines has always paid more but to get the licence you end up spending more than 15 lakhs (figure from 10 years ago) in training and not many of those who got training on govt dime could afford that. I am actually not surprised at the callousness of such a rhetorical post. Here is my simple straight up question. Forget these Pilots and all. Why are the IITians quick to jump the ship and go to US/UK??? Ever thought about that? Why doesnt DRDO exactly cram with IITians? And why does all the US Universities and companies do? Why does every Tom, Dick, Harry who have walked through the gates of IIT Kanpur dream of coming to US and not spending his life at ISRO? You think Indian Government(and citizens) spend nothing on them?? Get real. Atleast IAF pilots are still in India, not running abroad, and not thinking of a job at Wall-Street as their dream jobs. We Indians are biggest hyprocites. We expect others to do what we would never do ourselves. So an IAF pilot is supposed to sacrifice everything for India while a IIT Engineer is not. Why? Because an IITian has a sister to get married, old parents to take care of but surely the Pilot doesnt, right? Come back to me with arguments the day majority of IITians would be joining DRDO for a salary that is fraction of what Infosys or Goldman Sachs offers. Till then everyone knows ke baap bara na bhaiya sabse bara rupaiya..atleast for these creme de la creame. xxxx IITians leaving india is disadvantageous to India is still a debatable topic. given the back and forth business intercation paritucalrly in globalized world Cost incurred by govt for each iit students 4 lakh cost incurred by govt for each pilot trained near 10 crore. SO I am not surprised with the fact that govt in its wisdom gave one section freedom to choose and for others closed the door. If cost becomes astronomical tomorrow and govt of India makes it binding even for iit graduates to stay in India then this issue will be petinent to be raised, as of today freedom of choice is working well in this sector. Anyway this is not the point; you are goign overboard with words like callous where people concerned are making 6 lakh per annum in india where half of the population still lives on dollar a day kind of salary. If anyone commits sucide for financial reason in this scenario then he needs to see a psychologist and betetr still should start ateending relligiois cngregation. I don't care how much the equally competent person makes. I will again ask why are not professors commititng suicide. If you are not aware hordes of private isntitution which have come up recently do pay much more than a professor employed in govt institutes could expect to earn. You are a weak person if u are committing suicide irrespecive of your financial condition but I can understand this for the section of people who are under acute poverty but to suggest these army officers well fed well paid in absolute terms in indian milieu who enjoy all the govt doles which is the envy of the rest of the population are comitting suicide for financial reason is totally absurd. SO should my two classmates who joined DRDO be committing suicide , well last time I paid him a visit he had a great 3 bedroom bungalow provided by govt of india, top-notch facility at work place and he wasn't complaining. May not be making the same kind of money in comparison to the rest who joined private sector but situation is not driving him to suicide for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dada_rocks Posted December 16, 2006 Share Posted December 16, 2006 Re: Indian army's biggest enemy u cannot equate patriotism to a company with patriotism to one's countrry.... in the case of TCS, it is more like, u wipe my azz and i will wipe urs... They have bond wiht few lakhs i guess and that tells you what is their cost of ur training. I am all for IAF pilots leaving the job but first let them pay 10 crore rs back. Anyway my beef is with his attempt to paint it as if they are in financial crisis and in this deapir they commit suicide which is not the case by any stretch of imagination. We are talkign about India people 6 lakh goes a long way, my father used to get five thousand when I was in under-grad and I don't know about any suicide attempt made by him :wall: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dada_rocks Posted December 16, 2006 Share Posted December 16, 2006 Re: Indian army's biggest enemy All of us have recieved subsidised education in college...how many of us have a life time commitment bond with the govt. Well that happesn in communist state...In free democracy govt gives u elbow room if it can afford as far as IAf pilots are concerned cost is too high for govt to allow that and every pilot knows it before he/she joins the academy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beetle Posted December 16, 2006 Share Posted December 16, 2006 Re: Indian army's biggest enemy gator.....are you doubting the patriotism of men who serve in the airforce for 23-24 yrs, give their all.....and leave when they are no longer ina position to fly......because of either there seniority or because they are too old to fly fighter planes...... You would rather see a pilot rot in a desk job and cost the taxpayer more money in pay than leave to fly some more in the civil aviaton.....the air force doesn't leave them till they are in a position to fly...... As for dada rocks......so the govt paid for their training and they flew with passion for as long as they could....which in most cases is around the age of 40-42yrs...around the seniority of a Wg commander.....now what do you think should the govt do to get the moneys worth?....hang them...cut of their hands ? sell them in pieces..........What will satisfy you? Infact the govt benefits from the early retirement of middle level officers and encourages it...once the officer is superseded. I am sorry ...but your rant against the officers of the armed forces sounds like a rant of a bitter man.....Even pakistani soldiers have more respect for Indian officers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dada_rocks Posted December 16, 2006 Share Posted December 16, 2006 Re: Indian army's biggest enemy gator.....are you doubting the patriotism of men who serve in the airforce for 23-24 yrs, give their all.....and leave when they are no longer ina position to fly......because of either there seniority or because they are too old to fly fighter planes...... You would rather see a pilot rot in a desk job and cost the taxpayer more money in pay than leave to fly some more in the civil aviaton.....the air force doesn't leave them till they are in a position to fly...... As for dada rocks......so the govt paid for their training and they flew with passion for as long as they could....which in most cases is around the age of 40-42yrs...around the seniority of a Wg commander.....now what do you think should the govt do to get the moneys worth?....hang them...cut of their hands ? sell them in pieces..........What will satisfy you? Infact the govt benefits from the early retirement of middle level officers and encourages it...once the officer is superseded. I am sorry ...but your rant against the officers of the armed forces sounds like a rant of a bitter man.....Even pakistani soldiers have more respect for Indian officers. madam i will exhort u to read things throughly.. Point here is being made that fully functional IAF pilot should be allowed to leave their job and fly commercial planes in private secor because it pays them more. aur aap na jane kaun si kahani leke baith gain.. hath kato to gala kato :hic:.. after certain years u are allowed to take retirement but worry is that the new guys in peak of their career like to leave IAF and I have problme with that.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beetle Posted December 16, 2006 Share Posted December 16, 2006 Re: Indian army's biggest enemy and what makes you think Air force will allow a fully funtional pilot to leave .....? Firstly ...no one can leave till the force allows you to. If you leave without permission...you are declared aa bhagoda and face jail. So if the force is letting them go because they can't make any use of them any longer....to logon ko kya problem hai....just because they earm more....i think that is the only problem....koi khush hai ...yahi problem hai....If they were being asked to leave and couldn't find a job ...then probably no one would object. Waisay don't think i am supporting them because i have relatives in airforce....infact that is the only service jisme koi risteydar nahi hai....shayad doooor ke koi uncle hai....par don't remember him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dada_rocks Posted December 16, 2006 Share Posted December 16, 2006 Re: Indian army's biggest enemy and what makes you think Air force will allow a fully funtional pilot to leave .....? where did I say that they do. Moreover it's not matter of allowing people use the loophole in the system to leave the job in fact IAF is trying to fill those loopholes so that fully functional pilots don't leave their ranks. When u join any govt job there is contract between employee and govt and there is exit clause in that contract. depending on how much govt has spent on your training these clauses may be more or less stringent but there is way out . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gator Posted December 16, 2006 Share Posted December 16, 2006 Re: Indian army's biggest enemy gator.....are you doubting the patriotism of men who serve in the airforce for 23-24 yrs, give their all.....and leave when they are no longer ina position to fly......because of either there seniority or because they are too old to fly fighter planes...... :shrug: :wall: were did i say tht? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 Re: Indian army's biggest enemy IITians leaving india is disadvantageous to India is still a debatable topic. given the back and forth business intercation paritucalrly in globalized world Cost incurred by govt for each iit students 4 lakh cost incurred by govt for each pilot trained near 10 crore. DR saab, Can you please give me a reliable source of where you pull all these figures from(10 crores vis a vis 4 lakhs). I am assuming it must be some reliable source since you suggested it rather quickly. Please do share with me. I would not want to content your point about a figure if it was pulled out from a spot where the sun doesnt shine. I will again ask why are not professors commititng suicide. If you are not aware hordes of private isntitution which have come up recently do pay much more than a professor employed in govt institutes could expect to earn. Rather surprised that you made that comment. For the simple reason that you of all people must know of all the suicides of Primary Teachers that happened in past year of two in Bihar. Economic hardship was the primary reason given for their suicides. As for your argument about Private institutions you would perhaps know it yourself that it works in certain subjects only. Do you truly beleive that a Professor of Geography in Siwan is earning big bucks in Private Institution? Or that a PhD in Sanskrit at Vinoba Bhave University has requests for tuitions and extra money? And of course there is that simple logic that a Professors life is different from that of a soldier. A Professor does not get shot at everyday in his line of duty. If a Professor is indeed shot at, or lives in the morbid danger of lawlessness he would surely switch jobs or move away. Again, you of all people should know that considering how many Professors/Academics have left Bihar for that exact same reason, pay or not. You are a weak person if u are committing suicide irrespecive of your financial condition bu And you are such a strong person for suggesting that. How judgemental people can be!! Boss if you do not have a bit of sensitiveness towards someone why are you discrediting him? well last time I paid him a visit he had a great 3 bedroom bungalow provided by govt of india, top-notch facility at work place and he wasn't complaining. And I have a bunch of friends at ISRO who request me every year to get me a job in IT. We can play this game all day but I suppose we can all agree that going by the numbers more of the people DO NOT join DRDO than those who join them. Reason - money. Does that lead them to suicide? Of course not. Why? Read my point above. It is one thing to be paid less and another to be paid less in a work where you have every chance of getting killed everyday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beetle Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 Re: Indian army's biggest enemy u cannot equate patriotism to a company with patriotism to one's countrry.... I don't know whether you meant it...but in the context of the ongoing discussion it seems to me like you are saying ...the pilots who leave are unpatriotic.If you didn't mean that...then i apologise. >>i think, we go more for quantity than quality.. If that was the case...there wouldn't be shortage of people...na? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beetle Posted December 17, 2006 Share Posted December 17, 2006 Re: Indian army's biggest enemy lurker wrote>>>>Read my point above. It is one thing to be paid less and another to be paid less in a work where you have every chance of getting killed everyday So correct......the men in uniform in these areas get into life threating situation everyday ......not knowing if they will come back....and knowing very well that if they leave .....their families will pay for it the most as they know what the families have to face...specially the financial hardships .....not knowing if their kids will get a good education....these are difficult thoughts. How can that be compared to the hardships faced by an average govt servant who takes no risk of life ...and is assured of an income...even if it is meagere......? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dada_rocks Posted December 20, 2006 Share Posted December 20, 2006 Re: Indian army's biggest enemy I will try to find official data but I read those figures in the same article where pilot leaving the forces was being bemoaned. That cost sounds exorbitant but it was mentioned that due to the more than usual crashing rate during training, traning cost is exorbitant. We are not talking about Being-7474 here it's top of the line fighter plane and u know those fighterplanes cost hell lot of money. OKE there u go I found one.. http://www.tribuneindia.com/2003/20030413/spectrum/main1.htm I actually under-valued the cost of training.. Cost factor While the cost of each aircraft is about Rs 100 crore, the cost of the training of pilots is about Rs 23-45 crore per pilot (Fifth Pay Commission's Report Volume III page 1921). Thus, the loss of a pilot, apart from being a human life lost with all its tragic consequences, is a heavy cost to the exchequer. Yes I can buy those shiksha mitra who get paid paltry sum of 1500 rs commiting suicide and I again buy those poor foot soldiers commiting suicde for finaincial reasons. But no way in hell I am buying the well paid officers of miliary who get all the luxury one could ask for commiting suicide for financial reason. Just drop in some military canteen every thing is dirt cheap free housing in top-notch locality, housing at throw-away price at retirement. If after all thsi they are committing suicde then I again will emphasize half of the India should be doing harakiri. As far as risk is involved it's given and that's why there are extra perks which civilian employees don't get. Apropos not all profs having offer point is well taken but I don't see the tradition of suicide even among those disciplines where profs could easily get offer which might pay then ten times more than they make in govt job. See I can't fathom well-fed well-paid for indian standards committing suicide because his counterpart in private sector is making more. If they do they need to visit the camp of "Art of living". Kahte hain na apne dukh se dukhi ho uska to ilaaz hai par auron ke sukh se dukhi honewalo ka koi ilaaz nahin hai other than spiritual therapy. Moreover these folks knew at the time of joining IAF that there is private training going on which will cost 15 lakh and they will be free to join after that training whichever company they want but despite that they took easy rout of free-training and that too fighter plane pilot training the best you could hope for. All of a sudden they want their whims to be rspected by govt. Yes when your ISRO friend commits suicide for that very reason then let me know, everyone aspires to do better but a well-fed well-paid person in a country like india where half of the population hardly manages to make ends meet , committing suicide for financial reaosn is biggest baloney. Heck when i and my younger brother was in under-grad my father's salary was 5000 Rs out of that 4000 used to get spent on our education time was tough but nobody comitted suicde for sure. And you are telling me that a military officer with free top-class housing free vehicle free food other objects at dirt-cheap price are committing suicide because they are in finaincial crisis then well sir i would say these officer need to see a psychiatrist. This is classic case of bloated sense of self-worth, nothing less nothing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dada_rocks Posted December 20, 2006 Share Posted December 20, 2006 Re: Indian army's biggest enemy lurker wrote>>>>Read my point above. It is one thing to be paid less and another to be paid less in a work where you have every chance of getting killed everyday So correct......the men in uniform in these areas get into life threating situation everyday ......not knowing if they will come back....and knowing very well that if they leave .....their families will pay for it the most as they know what the families have to face...specially the financial hardships .....not knowing if their kids will get a good education....these are difficult thoughts. How can that be compared to the hardships faced by an average govt servant who takes no risk of life ...and is assured of an income...even if it is meagere......? That's why they get free housing free vehicle free food and dirt cheap canteen for all imaginable good under the sun in addition to the fat salary by indian standard. A Major makes at least 30-40000 a colonel around 50000. You are not telling me this is meagre salary. Any military man if dies on duty rest assured his/her ards will leave a royal life.. You are suggesting as if they are indulged in conatasnt firing on the border heck what sort of danger a military officer sitting in the canteen in ambala or muzaffapur or delhi has is beyon me. Of course it's their job there will eb some danger involved, why just military men police officer face danger too and it's not confined to war-time only. What do u mean civilian govt servant are assured of income and military men are not? Heck in civilian sector salary might get delayed but not for military folks. Sometimes my father gets salary after 6 months I say no whining you joined IAF govt has spent ungodly sum on you so now serve ur tenure and stop this drama of suicide. Once u retire u are free to join whichever private airlines u want. PS: Before u guys castigate me I have tried my best to join IAF have been interviewed thrice they never took me in. Once I went for interview from iit hostel needless to say was laughing stock for my batchmates for this decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beetle Posted December 20, 2006 Share Posted December 20, 2006 Re: Indian army's biggest enemy Do you even read what others write....? Do you even know that these suicides happen in high pressure anti terrorist postings... Frankly speaking your rant against officers of the armed forces is getting to be quite silly.And you come off looking like a bitter man. The point is ...some people are only happy to see a fauji dead with a bullet in his body...if he gets lucky and does not die...it is a such a waste of your resorces.God you pay taxes to keep this army ...how dare they not die. If it is such agreat life....then explain why there is such an accute shortage of officers in the armed forces. >>>>>. Moreoev these folks knew at the time of joiing IAF that there is private trainign going on which will 15 lakh around and they will be free to join after that trainign whichever company they want but no they took easy rout of free-training and that too fighter plane pilot training the best you could hope for. All of a sudden they want their whims to be rspected by govt. Not buying it. You really don't think twice before writing anything na??In that one paragraph you have questioned the dedication of all IAF pilots..... Well if it is so easily to become a fighter pilot.....how come there is a shortage. P.s...from your arguments till now...i am assumming that you tried to join...hence the interviews for NDA...but either did not or could not. and hence i refuse to argue with you....because it just seems like rant to me. May be you can't respect men in uniform or specifically officers in uniform...you may have your reasons ...you have the right to not respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beetle Posted December 20, 2006 Share Posted December 20, 2006 Re: Indian army's biggest enemy . Kahte hain na apne dukh se sukhi ho uska to ilaaz hai par auron ke sukh se dukhi honewalo ka koi ilaaz nahin hai so true...how dare the officers have houses...how dare they get canteenfacilities(these are some of the sops the govt tries to give people to entice people to join) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dada_rocks Posted December 20, 2006 Share Posted December 20, 2006 Re: Indian army's biggest enemy . Kahte hain na apne dukh se sukhi ho uska to ilaaz hai par auron ke sukh se dukhi honewalo ka koi ilaaz nahin hai so true...how dare the officers have houses...how dare they get canteenfacilities(these are some of the sops the govt tries to give people to entice people to join) You have very serious comprehension skill problem. Given you are a teacher you better fix this problem. Which part of my post made u think i decry these facilities given to them. Jesus parh bhi liya karo kabhi kabhar reply karane se pahle.. Why is it hard to comprehend that I am not decrying those facilities I am decrying this justification of suicide despite being given all these facilities. next time read before u reply. dimag ka dhahi bana diya ak hi baat kitani baar samjhaun.. :wall: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beetle Posted December 20, 2006 Share Posted December 20, 2006 Re: Indian army's biggest enemy Did you read my earlier posts about the reasons for commiting suicides....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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