70 jawans killed in biggest Maoists/Naxal attack ever in India

[seedhi]

Moreover, if one were to read the verses following 54:1 - [54:0] In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful [54:1] The Hour has come closer, and the moon has split. [54:2] Then they saw a miracle; but they turned away and said, "Old magic." [54:3] They disbelieved, followed their opinions, and adhered to their old traditions. [54:4] Sufficient warnings have been delivered to alert them. [54:5] Great wisdom; but all the warnings have been in vain. [54:6] Ignore them; the day will come when the caller will announce a terrible disaster. [54:7] With their eyes humiliated, they come out of the graves like scattered locusts. [54:8] As they respond to the caller, the disbelievers will say, "This is a difficult day." They make sense only in the context of 54:1 being associated with the Hour of Judgment. For example, 54:2-54:5 clearly refer to the remaining disbelievers at that time, a common theme of Abrahamic religions. 54:6 and 54:8 make references to 'The Day', which has been associated with disasters as the world comes to an end. Then later on the same reference to 'The Hour' in the same chapter : [54:46] The Hour is awaiting them, and the Hour is far worse and more painful.

I dont know what the hour refers to, but the "miracle" that they "witnessed" clearly refers to the moon being split. These are the hadiths, including those of the companions who claim to have witnessed the event.

Book 039, Number 6724: Abu Ma'mar reported on the authority of Abdullah that the moon was split up during lifetime by Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) in two parts and Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Bear testimony to this. Book 039, Number 6725: This hadith has been transmitted on the authority of Abdullah b. Mas'ud (who said): We were along with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) at Mina, that moon was split up into two. One of its parts was behind the mountain and the other one was on this side of the mountain. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upbn him) said to us: Bear witness to this. Book 039, Number 6726: 'Abdullah b. Mas'ud reported that the moon was split up in two parts during the lifetime of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him). The mountain covered one of its parts and one part of it was above the mountain and Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Bear witness to this. Book 039, Number 6727: This hadith has been transmitted on the authority of Shu'ba with a slight variation of wording. Book 039, Number 6728: Anas reported that the people of Mecca demanded from Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) that he should show them (some) signs (miracles) and he showed tlicin the splitting of the moon. This hadlth has been narrated on the authority of Anas through another chain of transmitters. Book 039, Number 6729: Anas reported that the moon was split up in two parts and in the hadith recorded in Abu Dawud, the words are:" The moon was split up into two parts during the life of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him)." Book 039, Number 6730: Ibn 'Abbas reported that the moon was split up during the lifetime of Allah's Messenger (may peace he upon him).

[The Outsider]

Let me try to distill what we are discussing. Basically the question is why should we "trust" the word of the companions/contemporaries of Muhammad as to the meaning of the verse in the Koran. Your argument (at least in part) seems to rest on the fact that such an event is a scientific impossibility and therefore those companions were lying. From this you seek to place more weight on the opinion on recent interpretations of the verse.

Yeah, that is part of the argument. The main argument is the absence of any similar usage of the term 'The Hour', which has unambiguously and without exception been used for the Day of Judgment across all Abrahamic religions through history.

My take on this is the following. There is a possibility that the companions witnessed something that seemed like the splitting of the moon - perhaps some natural phenomenon, cloud formation or smoke etc. I dont know, but it is one possibility.

What kind of natural phenomenon looks like the Moon has been split and part of it goes behind a mountain? Surely, in 1500 years since then we would have seen a similar natural phenomenon again?

Second could be that this particular incident was at least partially made up to enhance the aura of prophethood of Muhammad. This was (already) used to draw more followers into the fold of Islam.

I agree. It was probably made up to add to Muhammad's image. This makes the companions who did it liars and poor sources.

Given the fact that the consensus during Muhammad's lifetime and during the writing of the Koran seems to be that the event did occur, from multiple sources detailing that the 2 parts of the moon were on either side of a mountain, I think that it is entirely possible that this was a delusion induced by some natural phenomenon.

A more probable explanation, in line with the historical and literary use of the term 'The Hour' is that the verse was narrated with the intent of referring to the Hour of Judgment. However, some people saw it as an opportunity to make up a story about Muhammad splitting the moon to enhance his hold as a prophet of God.

It is pertinent that you brought up the Ganesha drinking milk "miracle". Now of course there is a scientific explanation (capillary action or evaporation etc) but a lot of people in this day and age were taken in and deluded by it. Similarly, Muhammad may have been clever/fortuitous enough to utilize such a natural phenomenon to his benefit and people believed it. After all this is how legends are built up using "miracles" and stuff.

Muhammad could have done that. Don't think there are any writings from his time. The Haadiths were compiled years after his death, so it's also possible that the companions made up the story to add to his image after his death. But whatever may be the case any satisfactory explanation has to account for the anomalous use of the term 'The Hour' in that verse.

[The Outsider]

I dont know what the hour refers to, but the "miracle" that they "witnessed" clearly refers to the moon being split. These are the hadiths, including those of the companions who claim to have witnessed the event.

You've got it wrong. 'They' - the people who witnessed the miracle in those verses are not Muhammad's companions. 'They' refers to the disbelievers as you can make out from 54:3-54:8 - and the reference is to the remaining disbelievers on the Day of Judgment. Why would Muhammad refer to his companions as disbelievers if 'They' refers to them?

[seedhi]

What kind of natural phenomenon looks like the Moon has been split and part of it goes behind a mountain? Surely' date=' in 1500 years since then we would have seen a similar natural phenomenon again?[/quote']I dont really know. But clouds have been mistaken for UFOs regularly. Maybe some cloud formation like this one http://www.aliendave.com/files/Photos/Chem/jellyfish_cloud_full_400x.jpg .

A more probable explanation, in line with the historical and literary use of the term 'The Hour' is that the verse was narrated with the intent of referring to the Hour of Judgment. However, some people saw it as an opportunity to make up a story about Muhammad splitting the moon to enhance his hold as a prophet of God.

I think the event of the splitting of the moon was some sort of mass delusion or a fabrication perpetuated by either Muhammad and/or his companions.

Muhammad could have done that. Don't think there are any writings from his time. The Haadiths were compiled years after his death, so it's also possible that the companions made up the story to add to his image after his death. But whatever may be the case any satisfactory explanation has to account for the anomalous use of the term 'The Hour' in that verse.

Perhaps "the hour" refers to the point of time when the meccans had to decide whether to accept Muhammad as the prophet. Or maybe it is indeed "The Hour" in which case the verse reads as if "The Hour" is drawing close (i.e. time is passing) but "the moon" has already split. "The Hour" seems to be used as a warning to the meccans that they will have to atone for their sin. The subsequent use of the term that you have pointed out support this claim. The miracle that the meccans "saw" is most certainly the "splitting of the moon".

[seedhi]

You've got it wrong. 'They' - the people who witnessed the miracle in those verses are not Muhammad's companions. 'They' refers to the disbelievers as you can make out from 54:3-54:8 - and the reference is to the remaining disbelievers on the Day of Judgment. Why would Muhammad refer to his companions as disbelievers if 'They' refers to them?

There is some misunderstanding. I was also referring to the meccans, when I said ` they "winessed" '. The miracle that the Koranic verse alludes to is the splitting of the moon, which was witnessed by the meccans (the "they") and the companions (who have recorded it in their Hadiths). The subsequent hadiths that I refer to were of the companions (at least some of them) who witnessed the splitting.

[The Outsider]

I dont really know. But clouds have been mistaken for UFOs regularly. Maybe some cloud formation like this one http://www.aliendave.com/files/Photos/Chem/jellyfish_cloud_full_400x.jpg .

That would look like a split moon to someone even from illiterate 7th century Arabia?

I think the event of the splitting of the moon was some sort of mass delusion or a fabrication perpetuated by either Muhammad and/or his companions.

I agree, it's most likely a fabrication from his companions to enhance Muhammad's stature.

Perhaps "the hour" refers to the point of time when the meccans had to decide whether to accept Muhammad as the prophet. Or maybe it is indeed "The Hour" in which case the verse reads as if "The Hour" is drawing close (i.e. time is passing) but "the moon" has already split. "The Hour" seems to be used as a warning to the meccans that they will have to atone for their sin. The subsequent use of the term that you have pointed out support this claim. The miracle that the meccans "saw" is most certainly the "splitting of the moon".

None of these explanations fit in with the universal use of the term 'The Hour' in Abrahamic religions. This has little to do specifically with the Meccans. You can find similar phrases in the Bible as well, and Muhammad just lifted and modified them from there. Moreover, in the same chapter in verse 54:46, 'The Hour' is used as an event to happen in the future. Why would the same proper noun be used to have entirely different meanings referring to some time in the past and then in the future in the same chapter?

There is some misunderstanding. I was also referring to the meccans, when I said ` they "winessed" '. The miracle that the Koranic verse alludes to is the splitting of the moon, which was witnessed by the meccans (the "they") and the companions (who have recorded it in their Hadiths). The subsequent hadiths that I refer to were of the companions (at least some of them) who witnessed the splitting.

There are no accounts of the Meccans having witnessed the splitting of the moon. The only accounts are from Muhammad's companions compiled years after the event and his death.

[asterix]

This thread could outrun the 'never ending thread'..

[seedhi]

That would look like a split moon to someone even from illiterate 7th century Arabia?

I am not saying this is exactly what he saw, but something similar could have caused the delusion. Another possibility is some refraction in the atmosphere. I dont know, maybe I am wrong.

None of these explanations fit in with the universal use of the term 'The Hour' in Abrahamic religions. This has little to do specifically with the Meccans. You can find similar phrases in the Bible as well, and Muhammad just lifted and modified them from there. Moreover, in the same chapter in verse 54:46, 'The Hour' is used as an event to happen in the future. Why would the same proper noun be used to have entirely different meanings referring to some time in the past and then in the future in the same chapter?

I think it does fit. Consider the following scenario. Muhammad is trying to convince the meccans of his prophethood. At this time there is some cloud/atmospheric phenomenon which seems like the moon has split. Muhammad points to it as a miracle and as a sign that "The Hour of Judgment" is approaching, using it as a warning to the meccans that they will have to answer for their sins. It is common for religious people to observe some strange phenomenon and use it to proclaim that "The Hour of Judgment" is near and further use it to persuade others onto some course of action.

There are no accounts of the Meccans having witnessed the splitting of the moon. The only accounts are from Muhammad's companions compiled years after the event and his death.

Well, all of the accounts, including the Koran were compiled after Muhammad's death. However, there are accounts that are given by meccans of that time when the "moon had been split" - this was before Muhammad left for Medina. For example Jubayrn ibn Mutim was a meccan who adopted Islam just before the reconquest of Mecca and long after this "splitting" took place and became a companion of Muhammad. He relates a tradition from his father who says that the moon was split. I found this reference http://books.google.com/books?id=lGemrut4BpAC&pg=PA77&lpg=PA77&dq=muhammad+split+moon+jubayr&source=bl&ots=eSygPGRqH5&sig=rvP8ETCzuix9aSM9YCxKTe92Hgs&hl=en&ei=MaY0TYysK8Wclgeo2NDCCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CDIQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=muhammad%20split%20moon%20jubayr&f=false .

[The Outsider]

I think it does fit. Consider the following scenario. Muhammad is trying to convince the meccans of his prophethood. At this time there is some cloud/atmospheric phenomenon which seems like the moon has split. Muhammad points to it as a miracle and as a sign that "The Hour of Judgment" is approaching, using it as a warning to the meccans that they will have to answer for their sins. It is common for religious people to observe some strange phenomenon and use it to proclaim that "The Hour of Judgment" is near and further use it to persuade others onto some course of action.

Doesn't make sense. Muhammad proclaimed to be sent from God to convey His message. A cornerstone of his preachings was that people must turn into believers, so that they can get good marks on the Day of Judgment. How could he make that claim if the Day of Judgment had already arrived or was due to arrive in the very near future? Kind of defeats the purpose of God sending him to spread His message. Moreover, if he indeed make the claim that the Day of Judgment had arrived, and finally when it did not arrive, he would have lost all credibility and following. There are no accounts of Muhammad having predicted the Day of Judgment happening in his lifetime. Surely, such a big thing would have some trace or records.

Well, all of the accounts, including the Koran were compiled after Muhammad's death. However, there are accounts that are given by meccans of that time when the "moon had been split" - this was before Muhammad left for Medina. For example Jubayrn ibn Mutim was a meccan who adopted Islam just before the reconquest of Mecca and long after this "splitting" took place and became a companion of Muhammad. He relates a tradition from his father who says that the moon was split. I found this reference http://books.google.com/books?id=lGemrut4BpAC&pg=PA77&lpg=PA77&dq=muhammad+split+moon+jubayr&source=bl&ots=eSygPGRqH5&sig=rvP8ETCzuix9aSM9YCxKTe92Hgs&hl=en&ei=MaY0TYysK8Wclgeo2NDCCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CDIQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=muhammad%20split%20moon%20jubayr&f=false .

He was still a Muslim and in Muhammad's camp. Don't see how his account is any different from any other companion of Muhammad.

[seedhi]

Doesn't make sense. Muhammad proclaimed to be sent from God to convey His message. A cornerstone of his preachings was that people must turn into believers, so that they can get good marks on the Day of Judgment. How could he make that claim if the Day of Judgment had already arrived? Moreover, if he indeed make the claim that the Day of Judgment had arrived, and finally when it did not arrive, he would have lost all credibility and following. There are no accounts of Muhammad having predicted the Day of Judgment happening in his lifetime. Surely, such a big thing would have some trace or records.

The verse reads (as you posted) "The Hour has come closer, and the moon has split." This does not mean that The Hour has actually arrived. It seems more like a threat to the meccans that it is not long now from when they will have to answer for their sins. This sort of thing is commonly used by religious fanatics - use some strange natural phenomenon to proclaim that Jesus or Mehdi is coming (not yet arrived), or that the Doom is near etc - to frighten gullible people. The actual proximity of the event is deliberately kept imprecise and subject to dilation (obviously).

He was still a Muslim and in Muhammad's camp. Don't see how his account is any different from any other companion of Muhammad.

The qualitative difference is that Jubayr's account quotes his father and Jubayr himself accepted Islam mnay years after the "splitting" of the moon. So his father was presumably one of those meccans who refused to believe Muhammad's prophethood at the time of the "splitting". Anyway, at the time of the compilation of the Koran, all of Mecca was Muslim so I dont know how easily one can find non-Islamic sources from that time, do they even exist?

[The Outsider]

The verse reads (as you posted) "The Hour has come closer, and the moon has split." This does not mean that The Hour has actually arrived. It seems more like a threat to the meccans that it is not long now from when they will have to answer for their sins. This sort of thing is commonly used by religious fanatics - use some strange natural phenomenon to proclaim that Jesus or Mehdi is coming (not yet arrived), or that the Doom is near etc - to frighten gullible people. The actual proximity of the event is deliberately kept imprecise and subject to dilation (obviously).

Okay, that does not answer the second part of my post - when in reality the Hour of Judgment did not arrive as is being promised by Muhammad, why didn't his followers abandon him for lying? Another thing, why isn't there any account about Muhammad proclaiming that the Hour of Judgment has come close? Also, why are there verses in the Quran revealed after the Moon splitting verse ie. narrated by Muhammad which make claims that Muhammad did not perform any miracle? Surely, splitting of the Moon would count as one? What benefit would Muhammad get by fooling people by this supposed miracle and then not take any credit for it?

The qualitative difference is that Jubayr's account quotes his father and Jubayr himself accepted Islam mnay years after the "splitting" of the moon. So his father was presumably one of those meccans who refused to believe Muhammad's prophethood at the time of the "splitting". Anyway, at the time of the compilation of the Koran, all of Mecca was Muslim so I dont know how easily one can find non-Islamic sources from that time, do they even exist?

Don't think there would be any non-Islamic sources. In which case, taking the word of his followers and companions that they saw him split the Moon should be taken as a lie perpetuated to strengthen Muhammad's stature as a prophet of God. The reason for it is pretty simple - the use of the phrase 'The Hour' would be completely out of context to all other literary evidence on Abrahamic religions. And as I showed above the claim that Muhammad proclaimed the Day of Judgment is imminent does not sit well.

[seedhi]

Okay' date=' that does not answer the second part of my post - when in reality the Hour of Judgment did not arrive as is being promised by Muhammad, why didn't his followers abandon him for lying? [/quote']Oh come on .. firstly how far The Hour of judgment is not made clear. The consequences of abandoning Muhammad could have been bad as well. If people are ready to accept that Muhammad spoke to an angel in a cave then then an imprecise prediction of The Hour is nothing much.

Another thing, why isn't there any account about Muhammad proclaiming that the Hour of Judgment has come close?

To hint at the proximity of The Hour was a scare tactic for the disbelieving meccans. It was deliberately kept vague.

Also, why are there verses in the Quran revealed after the Moon splitting verse ie. narrated by Muhammad which make claims that Muhammad did not perform any miracle? Surely, splitting of the Moon would count as one? What benefit would Muhammad get by fooling people by this supposed miracle and then not take any credit for it?

As I understand, this splitting of the moon is technically attributed to Allah rather than Muhammad. A neat trick.

Don't think there would be any non-Islamic sources. In which case, taking the word of his followers and companions that they saw him split the Moon should be taken as a lie perpetuated to strengthen Muhammad's stature as a prophet of God. The reason for it is pretty simple - the use of the phrase 'The Hour' would be completely out of context to all other literary evidence on Abrahamic religions. And as I showed above the claim that Muhammad proclaimed the Day of Judgment is imminent does not sit well.

I still think that the latter part of 54:1 "the moon was split" is meant to refer to the purported "miracle" of 54:2 that the meccans saw. Whoever wrote the Koran either knew that this event was a fabrication but included it to make strengthen the prophethood of Muhammad OR there indeed took place a mass delusion on account of some natural phenomenon which Muhammad used in his attempt to sway the meccans. This was faithfully recorded in the Koran by his followers.

[The Outsider]

Oh come on .. firstly how far The Hour of judgment is not made clear. The consequences of abandoning Muhammad could have been bad as well. If people are ready to accept that Muhammad spoke to an angel in a cave then then an imprecise prediction of The Hour is nothing much.

People would have been fine with a few days, weeks, maybe months. But after that would have certainly questioned Muhammad that his prediction of the end of the world is not materializing.

To hint at the proximity of The Hour was a scare tactic for the disbelieving meccans. It was deliberately kept vague.

Even if it was, there would be accounts of such a major thing. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that Muhammad predicted an imminent - however vague - coming of doomsday. Not only is there nothing to suggest Muhammad made any such claim, there is no other tertiary evidence either. Imagine, here is a guy who is believed to have a direct link with God saying that doomsday is coming. Wouldn't his followers done a lot of stuff in that knowledge which should easily be accounted for?

As I understand, this splitting of the moon is technically attributed to Allah rather than Muhammad. A neat trick.

Not in all Hadiths. Some ascribe it to Muhammad. Now which one are you going to pick and choose and why?

I still think that the latter part of 54:1 "the moon was split" is meant to refer to the purported "miracle" of 54:2 that the meccans saw. Whoever wrote the Koran either knew that this event was a fabrication but included it to make strengthen the prophethood of Muhammad OR there indeed took place a mass delusion on account of some natural phenomenon which Muhammad used in his attempt to sway the meccans. This was faithfully recorded in the Koran by his followers.

Just look at the convoluted scenario you have had to conjure : 1. Some natural phenomenon has to occur at the right place and time which mimics the splitting of the Moon - nothing we know of does that. 2. Muhammad has to be around his followers at that moment. 3. He needs to have the presence of mind to use it to his advantage. 4. He needs to tie it up with the Hour of Judgment and as a sign the world is coming to an end. 5. He needs to be reasonably sure that when the world will not end soon, his followers don't desert him. 6. He needs to ensure that the miracle is attributed to the right source - Allah or him - whatever the case might be. 7. He needs to ensure the fact that he said the end of the world is near, does not get propagated in the future for it will undermine his credibility. As opposed to : 1. Muhammad delivered the verse referring to a future Hour of Judgment as already mentioned in various other texts, using the same meaning of 'The Hour' as found in numerous other references. 2. He added splitting of the Moon as a sign that the Hour has arrived. 3. Years later, his followers cooked up a story based on the verse to embellish his standing as a prophet. Occam's razor?

[seedhi]

People would have been fine with a few days, weeks, maybe months. But after that would have certainly questioned Muhammad that his prediction of the end of the world is not materializing. Even if it was, there would be accounts of such a major thing. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that Muhammad predicted an imminent - however vague - coming of doomsday. Not only is there nothing to suggest Muhammad made any such claim, there is no other tertiary evidence either. Imagine, here is a guy who is believed to have a direct link with God saying that doomsday is coming. Wouldn't his followers done a lot of stuff in that knowledge which should easily be accounted for?

You are assuming too much logic into the actions of Muhammad and his followers. If the followers did not pay much heed to the extremely vague prediction in the first place then Muhammad would not have had any reason to build upon his claims. His aim was to keep his flock together, and his "clairvoyance", instructions were based on the response of his followers. I dont see why he would be looking far into the future and that too at the stage of hijra when his immediate future was uncertain.

Not in all Hadiths. Some ascribe it to Muhammad. Now which one are you going to pick and choose and why?

Which ones?

Just look at the convoluted scenario you have had to conjure : 1. Some natural phenomenon has to occur at the right place and time which mimics the splitting of the Moon - nothing we know of does that. 2. Muhammad has to be around his followers at that moment. 3. He needs to have the presence of mind to use it to his advantage. 4. He needs to tie it up with the Hour of Judgment and as a sign the world is coming to an end. 5. He needs to be reasonably sure that when the world will not end soon, his followers don't desert him. 6. He needs to ensure that the miracle is attributed to the right source - Allah or him - whatever the case might be. 7. He needs to ensure the fact that he said the end of the world is near, does not get propagated in the future for it will undermine his credibility.

You have convoluted the scenario by suggesting that Muhammad was some sort of deep thinking spiritual chess player. My scenario was that he was in the process of convincing the meccans, he sees this natural phenomenon and tries to use it to his advantage. Simple.

As opposed to : 1. Muhammad delivered the verse referring to a future Hour of Judgment as already mentioned in various other texts, using the same meaning of 'The Hour' as found in numerous other references. 2. He added splitting of the Moon as a sign that the Hour has arrived. 3. Years later, his followers cooked up a story based on the verse to embellish his standing as a prophet. Occam's razor?

In your hypothesis why do you leave out the embellishment of the Koran itself, for it was also compiled by the same followers. The meaning (as intended in the Koran) of "the moon was split" in 54:1 and "miracle" in 54:2 is quite clear - they both refer to the miracle that was purportedly seen by the meccans. Your hypothesis is incomplete without acknowledging this fabrication into the Koran.

[The Outsider]

You are assuming too much logic into the actions of Muhammad and his followers. If the followers did not pay much heed to the extremely vague prediction in the first place then Muhammad would not have had any reason to build upon his claims. His aim was to keep his flock together, and his "clairvoyance", instructions were based on the response of his followers. I dont see why he would be looking far into the future and that too at the stage of hijra when his immediate future was uncertain.

On the contrary, you are giving Muhammad too much credit that he was smart enough to take advantage of a natural phenomenon, which could have mimicked the splitting of the moon in two with one part going over the mountain (even considering that such a phenomenon exists in the first place in nature, which is by no means a given). He would, at the very least, have been smart enough to claim that it was a miracle by him or Allah and signaled the coming of the end of the world. And immediately come up with around 40-50 verses.

Which ones?

You tell me which ones represent the truth - the ones which ascribe the splitting to God or to Muhammad?

You have convoluted the scenario by suggesting that Muhammad was some sort of deep thinking spiritual chess player. My scenario was that he was in the process of convincing the meccans, he sees this natural phenomenon and tries to use it to his advantage. Simple.

As described above, he would have to be very smart to be able to do that, and in the process would have risked his credibility. And even if such a thing did happen - Muhammad saying that the end of the world is near, it would have been a huge event and there is absolutely nothing in the accounts to suggest that he said something like this. When there are accounts for some really obscure events of his life, his prediction that doomsday is imminent not having any accounts is frankly, unbelievable. My scenario ascribes hardly any grand intelligence on Muhammad's part - the only thing he needed to do was add in to the already existing idea from other religions about the Hour Of Judgment, the notion that the splitting of the Moon will signal it. Moreover, he could do all this at his leisure and not have to come up with 50 odd verses impromptu after seeing the natural phenomenon.

In your hypothesis why do you leave out the embellishment of the Koran itself, for it was also compiled by the same followers. The meaning (as intended in the Koran) of "the moon was split" in 54:1 and "miracle" in 54:2 is quite clear - they both refer to the miracle that was purportedly seen by the meccans. Your hypothesis is incomplete without acknowledging this fabrication into the Koran.

How is the meaning 'quite clear'? Just a while back you were not considering the idea that it actually referred to the Hour of Judgment. Now, you are saying it does, but the Hour of Judgment was in Muhammad's life time, rather than some distant future event. Also, you are assuming that the miracle was seen by the Meccans - there is no evidence for it. Embellishing the Quran, while possible, was much more difficult than adding in the event into the Hadiths, which were authored independently and around 100+ years later, as opposed to the Quran which was compiled with dozens of independent sources almost immediately after Muhammad's death. And I am looking for the most probable explanation which fits all parameters, not a convoluted story.

[seedhi]

How is the meaning 'quite clear'? Just a while back you were not considering the idea that it actually referred to the Hour of Judgment. Now, you are saying it does, but the Hour of Judgment was in Muhammad's life time, rather than some distant future event.

I think we are just going around in circles. I guess the main point is that you seem to think that the meaning of 54:1 is exactly the same as Muhammad meant it - an event in the future. If so, can you explain what is the "miracle" being referred to in 54:2. As I see it (as do most Islamic scholars) the "miracle" that the meccans purportedly witnessed is the "splitting of the moon". Otherwise there is no explanation for 54:2. Moreover, this is confirmed by the hadiths of the same companions who lived around the time Koran was compiled.

Also, you are assuming that the miracle was seen by the Meccans - there is no evidence for it.

What evidence do you need? I cant give you a photograph. The Koran itself says in 54:2 that a miracle was witnessed by the meccans (who claimed it to be magic). The Hadiths (some of which from meccans) claim that they witnessed something.

Embellishing the Quran, while possible, was much more difficult than adding in the event into the Hadiths, which were authored independently and around 100+ years later, as opposed to the Quran which was compiled with dozens of independent sources almost immediately after Muhammad's death. And I am looking for the most probable explanation which fits all parameters, not a convoluted story.

Is there any evidence of any text which can even be traced to sources from the time of Muhammad which interprets the "splitting" as a future event. All the relevant hadiths and even the verse 54:2 points to the "splitting" as a contemporary event witnessed as a miracle by the meccans.

[The Outsider]

I think we are just going around in circles. I guess the main point is that you seem to think that the meaning of 54:1 is exactly the same as Muhammad meant it - an event in the future. If so, can you explain what is the "miracle" being referred to in 54:2. As I see it (as do most Islamic scholars) the "miracle" that the meccans purportedly witnessed is the "splitting of the moon". Otherwise there is no explanation for 54:2. Moreover, this is confirmed by the hadiths of the same companions who lived around the time Koran was compiled.

The 'miracle' obviously refers to the splitting of the Moon. However, it's not a contemporary event. It is an event which will happen when 'The Hour' comes, as is clear from the previous verse. It is also not being witnessed by the Meccans - it will be witnessed by all, among them disbelievers, when the world is about to come to an end. And in 54:2 and subsequent verses, the implication is that even after they witness the miracle, the disbelievers will not change their ways and will subsequently get punished as described towards the end of the chapter. Muhammad could not have meant that the end of the world is imminent, because such a huge prophecy would not have gone unrecorded.

What evidence do you need? I cant give you a photograph. The Koran itself says in 54:2 that a miracle was witnessed by the meccans (who claimed it to be magic). The Hadiths (some of which from meccans) claim that they witnessed something.

No, it doesn't. I've already written above what 54:2 means. If 54:2 means what you are saying it is complete disconnect with 54:1, which refers to the Hour of Judgment.

Is there any evidence of any text which can even be traced to sources from the time of Muhammad which interprets the "splitting" as a future event. All the relevant hadiths and even the verse 54:2 points to the "splitting" as a contemporary event witnessed as a miracle by the meccans.

The Quran itself says that there won't be any miracles which can be attributed to Muhammad or during his time. Why would Muhammad claim a miracle and then go on to say that there won't be any miracles? That defeats the entire purpose of claiming a miracle. "And We refrain from sending the Signs only because the men of former generations treated them as false: We sent the She-camel: to the Thamud to open their eyes but they treated her wrongfully" And just in 9th century, I have shown that it was interpreted as a future event. Maybe there are earlier documented instances as well, that I am not aware of.

[seedhi]

"And We refrain from sending the Signs only because the men of former generations treated them as false: We sent the She-camel: to the Thamud to open their eyes but they treated her wrongfully"

Can you give me a link for the above?

[The Outsider]

Can you give me a link for the above?

http://www.alim.org/library/quran/ayah/compare/17/59/why-the-signs-are-not-sent-to-muhammad-%28pbuh%29-like-prior-prophets

[seedhi]

http://www.alim.org/library/quran/ayah/compare/17/59/why-the-signs-are-not-sent-to-muhammad-%28pbuh%29-like-prior-prophets

Well well well ... This is what you wrote in post # 583 as a verse that ruled out miracles:

"And We refrain from sending the Signs only because the men of former generations treated them as false: We sent the She-camel: to the Thamud to open their eyes but they treated her wrongfully"

where as the actual verse (from the link you have given yourself) is

And We refrain from sending the Signs only because the men of former generations treated them as false: We sent the She-camel: to the Thamud to open their eyes but they treated her wrongfully: We only send the Signs by way of terror (and warning from evil).

The verse makes it quite clear the miracles are possible as a warning to people, which is exactly what I say is the interpretation regarding the "splitting" and the meccans. So you deliberately hacked off the last portion of the verse to make it fit your hypothesis, and it was definitely deliberate as you inserted the inverted commas that I have highlighted to make it seem you posted the whole verse. Shameful and extremely disappointing stuff from you. Clearly you dont have an open mind and from my POV there is no purpose served in continuing this discussion with you any further.