Best fast bowling pair ever?

[Lurker]

Will have to be Ambrose & Walsh. Both all-time greats whose efficiency only increased together. Kept the West Indies team a formidable force almost singlehandedly when everyone else, except Lara, kept letting them down.

[gator]

i never rated waqar as an alltime great.... i vote for the GREATEST FAST BOWLER - Ambrose and his humble partner - Walsh....

[Bumper]

Havent seen Roberts/Holding or Lillee/Thommo (other than in highlight clips). Among the ones i have seen I'd rate McGrath, Gillespie ahead of the rest. They bowled very well together & picked wickets in almost all conditions. Barring the Ashes that England won, i dont recall them failing as a pair. Donald/Pollock bowled mostly in SA which has the most helpful tracks around for fast bowlers. Wasim/Waqar as Shwetabh put it were effective as a PAIR only for 2 years. BTW, where is Pathan/Zaheer on the list ? Or do they come under other greats ?:haha:

[CC1981]

I am surprised that only Rahul and I have mentioned Malcolm Marshall-Mikey Holding duo as the best. If you read the autobiographies from this period and check out their record as an opening pair, its pretty mindboggling. Some pretty amazing stats too- like how no opening partnership put up a 50 partnership vs Holding-Marshall, how during this period, this pair would knock over hallowed batsmen like Gavaskar, Border, Miandad, Zaheer Abbass etc. in single digit scores eight outta ten times, etc etc. Only reason this pair didnt last very long is the age difference between Mikey and Macco - Holding was his senior by 4-5 years i think. So by the time Macco hit world-class form in the early 80s, Holding was nearing the end of his career and had only 3-4 great years left in him. PS: I do not see how Holding's that over to Boycott was overrated. Six balls that did six different things, each one faster than the last ( and every delivery being express pace) with the final one of the over castling Boycs and Boycs could put a bat on any of those deliveries. A batsman almost equal to the stature of Gavaskar couldnt touch a single delivery !

[MundaPakistani]

I am surprised that only Rahul and I have mentioned Malcolm Marshall-Mikey Holding duo as the best. !

you missed my post:thumbs_up:

[MundaPakistani]

Wasim/Waqar as Shwetabh put it were effective as a PAIR only for 2 years.

That is simply not true. Between 1989 to 1995 the 2 Ws took about 370 to 380 wickets with an average of about 20(Wasim averaged 21 and Waqar averaged 19). Shwetabh, I think in test cricket ALL captains would much rather have a player with a better bowling SR than a better economy rate e.g in Waqar's case he would give you 2 wickets for 46 runs in about 15 overs while some one with a slihgtly inferior SR but a same average would give you 2/46 in 19 overs. So here the thing to note is that Waqar would not only give you 4 extra overs to force a result but by getting the batsmen out quickly he would also make sure that runs aren't scored from the OTHER end.

[Lurker]

I am surprised that only Rahul and I have mentioned Malcolm Marshall-Mikey Holding duo as the best.

To the best of my knowledge Marshall-Holding partnership did NOT exactly perform any better than Ambrose-Walsh. And I would be greatly surprised if Marshall-Holding opened West Indies pace bowling in more than 15-20 tests, if that! The ascend of Marshall as International fast bowler coincided with the decline of Andy Roberts. Indeed in his book Marshall attributed how difficult it was to see Andy trying extra hard to save his place(for all practical purpose Marshall replaced Roberts in West Indies bowling). And Andy Roberts was the first-up bowler till as late as 1983-84(most Indians would remember the 1983 WC finals where Roberts/Garner opened against Sreekanth and Sunny). Marshall started opening for West Indies by 1984 but by this time Holding had lost his pace too, and would retire in a couple of years(I am pretty positive I didnt see him in 1987 WC but I am open to correction on this one). At this time Garner was quite often the second opening bowler, alongside other bowlers like Patterson. Michael Holding was often the first change bowler. Like I said I would be greatly surprised if Holding-Marshall shared the new ball for more than 15 tests, if that. On the other hand Walsh-Ambrose have a stellar record for about 75 odd tests, if not more. Hence my votes goes for them. xxx

[CC1981]

Waqar's problem i think was that he couldnt bowl short very well. He could always bowl a deadly bouncer but he couldnt pepper the batsmen with short-of-a-length ball like Wasim/Imran/Ambrose etc. could. I dunno why exactly (maybe its Jeff Thommo action from a much shorter frame) but his balls were always very fast, swung alarmingly at incredible speeds but lacked bounce. As a result, Waqar was always hit-or-miss because he could only excell bowling it fast and full. The days he got swing and control, he was deadly, the days he didn't, he got hammered by almost everyone because he couldn't switch to a shorter length and be effective Hell, this would be the story in the span of a single test - one spell would be super-tripe,bowling 50 runs in 10 overs, next spell would be 5 overs, 15 runs, 4 wickets. This is why i think Waqar, though an excellent, excellent bowler, was a limited bowler and i wouldn't pick him to spearhead an attack. Though he'd be deadly in an attack with other greats. In ODIs however, i'd be hardpressed not to include Waqar in any team because i'd love the option of taking 3-4 wickets in a 3-4 over span like what was Waqar's forte. He can deciede an ODI in your favour in practically 10 minutes. From the 90s batch, I'd take Ambrose, Walsh, Wasim, Donald, Pollock & McGrath ahead of Waqar when it comes to Tests. And he seriously wasnt as good as Imran, Marshall, Holding, Garner, Lillee either. I'd consider Andy Roberts to be about the same level as Waqar in terms of overall effectiveness. Wasim though i think was truely magic. If only he were more serious and figures-oriented like most bowlers are. He should've taken atleast 100 more wickets than he did in Tests. As far as bowlers go, ultimately every bowler meets his match/has his kryptonite- be it a player or a surface. But 'impossible' was not a word in wasim-bhai's dictionary when it came to bowling. He is the only player i can think of who i'd say 'fack the stats, go by what your eyes tell you. he is the best damn fast bowler of alltime.'

[Dhondy]

Why does this have to be limited to fast bowling pairs? I vote for McGrath-Warne.

[CC1981]

I am sure Holding-Marshall opened for atleast a 3-4 year period and 15-20 tests. Yes, as i said, longetivity-wise they were nowhere close to a lot of other great bowling pairs but in terms of effectiveness, they are untouched in their brief pinnacle together. I just wish there were a glut of tests every-year for every team like there is today coz if somehow we could see how great these bowlers would've been playing 100+ tests like McWarne, it'd make it obvious that Marshall-Holding were an unbeatable act in terms of effectiveness. They complimented each other's bowling styles very well, both were top-class thinking bowlers and both bowlers made you think twice about getting into dominating moods. You COULDNT dominate your way out of Macco-Holding (unless you were a crazy desi called Jimmy). If you started hitting out against one, they'd switch ends and nearly kill you. I don't think you guys can imagine the kind of bowling Holding/Marshall did to dominate batsmen- that kind of bowling is not bouncer-galore but terrifying nonetheless- balls from goodlength and just-short of good-length comming at your throat, comming at your chest or moving away at chest-height at terrifying speeds with the occasional laser-guided yorker thrown in. A part of the reason why Holding-Marshall, more than anything else, wernt as longstanding an opening pair is because of the age-gap between the two. Most 'great pairs' like Walsh& Ambrose, Wasim & Waqar etc. play the bulk of their careers together, Marshall-Holding spent only a few years in the team together before the older guy declined.

[Lurker]

I am sure Holding-Marshall opened for atleast a 3-4 year period and 15-20 tests. Yes, as i said, longetivity-wise they were nowhere close to a lot of other great bowling pairs but in terms of effectiveness, they are untouched in their brief pinnacle together.

CC, Check this link out. This is the list of games played by Holding post 1st October 1983. This would be the first time Marshall was given the new ball ahead of Andy Roberts, and effectively ended Roberts career. http://statserver.cricket.org/guru?sdb=player;playerid=1451;class=testplayer;filter=advanced;team=0;opposition=0;notopposition=0;homeaway=0;continent=0;country=0;notcountry=0;groundid=0;season=0;startdefault=1975-11-28;start=1983-10-01;enddefault=1987-02-24;end=1987-02-24;tourneyid=0;finals=0;daynight=0;toss=0;scheduleddays=0;scheduledovers=0;innings=0;followon=0;result=0;seriesresult=0;captain=0;keeper=0;dnp=0;recent=;runslow=;runshigh=;batposition=0;dismissal=0;viewtype=bow_match;bowposition=0;ballslow=;ballshigh=;bpof=0;overslow=;overshigh=;conclow=;conchigh=;wicketslow=;wicketshigh=;dismissalslow=;dismissalshigh=;caughtlow=;caughthigh=;caughttype=0;stumpedlow=;stumpedhigh=;csearch=;submit=1;.cgifields=viewtype If you check the list of games(24 in total) you would see that but for first series against India, Marshall and Holding rarely opened. Most of the times Marshall opened with Garner. I did some random clicks and atleast 6-8(post India 1983 series) confirmed that. Like I mentioned I would be very surprised if they opened together for 15 tests, if that. This is not to take anything away from them however, they were both true greats and easily two of the greatest pace bowler ever, and extremely effective together. My only issue is that they did not have a long career(together). xxxx

[CC1981]

Lurker, Holding and Marshall first started opening in 1980/81. Bear in mind- one of the reason WI didnt have a bona-fide opening pair in much of the 80s is because they didn't need one. Holding, Marshall, Garner were all topclass opening bowlers and in the 80s (with Robert's decline), those three were liberally used as opening bowlers. Then with Holding going away, Walsh came in and for a period Holding-Garner was the thing. Then Garner retired and Bishop came in like Waqar did. After a short while Marshall started fading and Ambrose-Bishop became the opening act. Then Bishop got terribly injured and Walsh-Ambrose formed the opening pair from early-mid 90s onwards.

[King]

Roberts/Holding and Walsh/Ambrose pair is usually thought of as a high point in the WI bowling department. Sure you can say Marshall bowled alongside Holding, Garner and the rest but there was no partnership thingy going between the bowlers after the Robers/Holding breakup. As for India the only pair that hunted in pair was Srinath/Prasad for a short while. You could say Srinath/Zaheer too but that doesn't hold water. Zaheer/Nehra and Pathan/Balaji showed some potential but did well only in a series or at most 3.

[Lurker]

Lurker, Holding and Marshall first started opening in 1980/81.

CC, Before the date I gave the record before(1st October 1983) Holding and Marshall opened the bowling ONCE. That was in 1980-81 against England, and Marshall was given the new ball because Andy Roberts was out injured. Here is the list of games played by Marshall before 1st october 1983, you can check yourself how many games he opened bowling with Holding. http://statserver.cricket.org/guru?sdb=player;playerid=1571;class=testplayer;filter=advanced;team=0;opposition=0;notopposition=0;homeaway=0;continent=0;country=0;notcountry=0;groundid=0;season=0;startdefault=1978-12-15;start=1978-12-15;enddefault=1991-08-12;end=1983-10-01;tourneyid=0;finals=0;daynight=0;toss=0;scheduleddays=0;scheduledovers=0;innings=0;followon=0;result=0;seriesresult=0;captain=0;keeper=0;dnp=0;recent=;runslow=;runshigh=;batposition=0;dismissal=0;viewtype=bow_match;bowposition=0;ballslow=;ballshigh=;bpof=0;overslow=;overshigh=;conclow=;conchigh=;wicketslow=;wicketshigh=;dismissalslow=;dismissalshigh=;caughtlow=;caughthigh=;caughttype=0;stumpedlow=;stumpedhigh=;csearch=;submit=1;.cgifields=viewtype I strongly beleive Andy Roberts and Michael Holding bowled in tandem for a much more longer period of time, as also did Marshall alongside Garner, as compared to Marshall and Holding. I would be surprised if the latter two even bowled in 15 tests together. xxxx

[kumble_rocks]

Spot on Lurker.

[chanakya]

ambrose-walsh Are there greater exponents of the game who didn't shout about themselves from the rooftops. My favourite walsh memory. He bowls a laser guided bouncer. Smiles plesantly at the batsman goes back and then produces the perfect out swinger.

[gator]

the only bowler equal to Ambrose in sheer greatness of fast-bowling was Marshall... Amby wins out, cos of the way he carried the attack on his shoulders with support from Walshey... Macko had plenty of support.... there is no way, Waqar/Wasim could match the Amby/Walsh duo both on strike power as well as longevity...

[The Outsider]

Not McGrath, gator? I haven't seen anyone target and dominate the best batsmen of the opposition as Marshall and McGrath, who incidentally would share the new ball in my all time World XI.

[Predator_05]

McGrath and Ambrose were very similar in terms of style. Ambrose was a better bowler because he could extract more bounce on different surfaces and had a mean short ball. However they both took wickets in the same way - by keeping it in the corridor with metronomic efficiency.

[gator]

Amby can be a demon when he wanted to.... Pigeon had tht limitation..... i have seen pigeon get dominated, but never Amby... i havent gone into stats... but i can bet Amby was better.... he was not jus a line and length merchant like pigeon... he could generate a lot of pace with bounce and hostility.... some of his terror spells were jus spell-binding to watch.... i have never seen anyone who can bowl the throat-ball better....