You Know Things Are Really Good When ...

[Ultimate_Game]

I think we need those Indian umpires who helped us to a 19-6 dominance in Ind 86-05.

They were definitely much better than the Paki ones. At least we didn't see this type of charade just to "pad" the wins 1. http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/current/match/64167.html Pakistan were about to lose the odi and the series in 1978 to India and what did they ome up with? Bowl bouncers which Indian batsmen couldn't even reach!!! Here's the official note from the game "Bishen Bedi conceded the match in protest against the short pitched bowling tactics of Pakistan. Sarfraz Nawaz's last 4 deliveries were all out of reach of the batsmen, and not called wide by the umpire." 2. http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/64347.html Pakistan were 28/3 in 15 overs and guess what! The match was "abandoned" owing to crowd trouble :hysterical: Sure, about to lose and then "abandon" the game :haha: If the game was not able to proceed due to crowd trouble in Pakistan coz Pakistan was about to lose why wasn't the game awarded to India as was done in the previous case?

[Utalk]

I never argued we had the best and unbiased umpires.Umpiring was biased around the world.I remember we getting horrid umpiring in Eng 87-92 and windies 92.Eng suffered in Pak 87/88.But its you who blames umpires for poor Indian head to head but fails to answer when I raise Pak dominance in Ind with Ind umpires.

[Ultimate_Game]

I never argued we had the best and unbiased umpires.Umpiring was biased around the world.I remember we getting horrid umpiring in Eng 87-92 and windies 92.Eng suffered in Pak 87/88.But its you who blames umpires for poor Indian head to head but fails to answer when I raise Pak dominance in Ind with Ind umpires.

That's where you are mistaken. Umpiring standards may not have been great before neutral umpires but it was Pakistan who made the most of it. Hell, Miandad could play french cricket without fear of getting out!!! That's the reason Pakistan were the most affected by the advent of neutral umpiring - their W/L ratio at home dropped from a gaudy 4 to quite average 1.6!!! As shown by the examples given India could have had a 16-5 record at home but what's the point of that if you have to cheat to win? Maybe if Pakistan had fairer umpires we would have seen India with a 15-5 record in Pakistan.

[Utalk]

That's where you are mistaken. Umpiring standards may not have been great before neutral umpires but it was Pakistan who made the most of it. Hell, Miandad could play french cricket without fear of getting out!!! That's the reason Pakistan were the most affected by the advent of neutral umpiring - their W/L ratio at home dropped from a gaudy 4 to quite average 1.6!!! As shown by the examples given India could have had a 16-5 record at home but what's the point of that if you have to cheat to win? Maybe if Pakistan had fairer umpires we would have seen India with a 15-5 record in Pakistan.

If we could win in Ind with Ind umpires who says we needed umpires to win at home.

[Guest BossBhai]

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[Utalk]

That's where you are mistaken. Umpiring standards may not have been great before neutral umpires but it was Pakistan who made the most of it. Hell, Miandad could play french cricket without fear of getting out!!! That's the reason Pakistan were the most affected by the advent of neutral umpiring - their W/L ratio at home dropped from a gaudy 4 to quite average 1.6!!! As shown by the examples given India could have had a 16-5 record at home but what's the point of that if you have to cheat to win? Maybe if Pakistan had fairer umpires we would have seen India with a 15-5 record in Pakistan.

I have been watching cricket for 25 years and believe me I have seen shockingly biased umpiring esp in Eng.Who was the person asking for neutral umpires in the first place?

[Utalk]

that would be practically everybody in the cricket world.

So if we needed umpires to win at home then how come we dominated Ind in Ind and never lost a test series in Eng for 24 years 82-06?

[Guest BossBhai]

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[Utalk]

BTW if Indian umpires were so horrible why did Imran pick them to stand as neutral umpires in Pak vs WI series ? A great example of honest Indian umpiring was when Sunny was given out (wrongly) by an Indian umpire in the 1987 B'lore Test when we needed just 16 more to win. He could have easily said not out and nobody would have questioned him.

Who says Indian umpires were horrible?

[Utalk]

BTW if Indian umpires were so horrible why did Imran pick them to stand as neutral umpires in Pak vs WI series ? A great example of honest Indian umpiring was when Sunny was given out (wrongly) by an Indian umpire in the 1987 B'lore Test when we needed just 16 more to win. He could have easily said not out and nobody would have questioned him.

Awwe great memories.That series got me into cricket.Sunny was a true legend.Class player of pace.

[Ultimate_Game]

I have been watching cricket for 25 years and believe me I have seen shockingly biased umpiring esp in Eng.Who was the person asking for neutral umpires in the first place?

But can you give an example similar to the ones I gave above? The very fact that India didn't go to such an extent itself makes me proud. It's this illusion that "everyone" did it that rest of the world stopped taking Pakistan home games seriously - do read Steve Waugh's biography as it will present an interesting insight. in fact things were so bad that Imran had to put forward the idea of neutral umpires to lend credibility to Pak home results. IMO Imran overestimate Pakistan team and that's why their results took a nose dive at home. You can compare stats for all the teams' results before and after neutral umpire and you will see Pakistan were the worst hit - their W/L ratio plummeted from 4 to 1.6 and in fact they even lost to Zim at home!!! No other team had such a drastic change post neutral umpires.

[Utalk]

I am not saying umpiring was not biased in Pakistan.But I gave two examples windies 88 and Eng 87 where we suffered due to bad umpiring. I watched every series in Pak 92 onwards and home loses were more down to team politics.We won in Eng 92-96, NZ 93-94-95, Ind 99 we won two tests, drew in SA 98, Won CU series down under now that were not under pakistani umpires. Home losses started with Rameez captaining against SL 95 when Ws clearly wanted him to fail. SA 97 was the same again Saeed anwer was forced out because Wasim.Malik and Inzi had too much power and made sure no other captain was allowed to succeed. They did the same to sohail in 98 when we lost to Zim.But same team won in Ind under wasim.

[Ultimate_Game]

Yup there might be cases of umpires erring in favor of home team as it is but natural. In fact I recall one instance where Indian umpire raised his finger to give an Indian batsman out and then went on to scratch his hat instead of giving the batsman out!!! But what was more interesting was the reaction from Indian media - the umpire was lambasted and didn't stand in another match that series. But there's another side to the story as well - in 1987 one of Indian youngsters (Gursharan Singh) was making his debut at home after scoring heavily in Ranji Trophy. He was on 18 when he got a big inside edge on to his pad but was given out by Indian umpire. He never got another chance and his career was ended by a pretty poor decision by an Indian umpire. Another poor decision I can recall is the tied test against Aus in mid 1980s where Maninder Singh was given LBW to Greg Matthews when there was a clear inside edge and the umpire was again an Indian. The point is Indian umpires erred both in favor and against Indian players - Indian batsmen never got a "get out of jail free" card in India. Everyone knows that in the old days you had to perform much better to win away from home as you had to outdo any home bias in case of umpiring. But in Pakistan's case it wasn't as much home bias as it was a plan/strategy. I mean look at Miandad's record at home - the guy wasn't given LBW at all at home. The feeling was you had to play out of your skin just to get a draw in Pakistan as win was out of the question. Why do you think even a poor Indian team in 1989 was able to draw 4 test series in Pakistan? If the umpires were Pakistani Ind would have lost 2-0 at least. Why do you think India only started to win in Pak only after neutral umpires were introduced? Or why most of players who played in 80s or earlier had a pretty poor image of Pakistani umpiring? You can treat them as sour grapes but if nearly everyone was complaining and Imran had to ask for neutral umpires you can put 2 and 2 together. India had a pretty poor record at home till 1989 (introduction of neutral umpires) with a W/L ratio of just .88!!! After the advent of neutral umpire India's W/L ratio actually jumped to 3 and I for one feel much more comfortable with neutral umpire than Indian umpires as you never knew when an Indian umpire would commit a howler against India just to show he was neutral. If India's sole aim were to boost the stats and rack up home wins we wouldn't have seen a tied Test against Aus or a close 15 run loss to Pakistan in 1987 - a couple of decisions here and there would have made sure of the result. Again Pakistan most probably were a better team than India and would have a better W/L ratio but the 69-47 figure itself is quite inflated coz India never had a fair chance in Pakistan or Sharjah. I listed 2 examples where those matches should have been an India win and I wouldn't go into all the games where India would have won given neutral umpiring and most probably the stats would have been more like 60-55 instead of 69-47. But all that is for posterity's sake as I am quite happy with the World Cup record and the direction India is headed in

[Guest BossBhai]

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[vijay810]

So if we needed umpires to win at home then how come we dominated Ind in Ind and never lost a test series in Eng for 24 years 82-06?

Lack of good camera and help from bottle caps......a luxury now denied since camera never leave sight of the ball when Pakistan is bowling nowdays ....and bottle cap is impossible to use

[Sidhoni]

When :csk: is ahead of :mi: in the points table! :P

[Sidhoni]

When Kamran Khatmal drops Ross Taylor!

[Sachin=GOD]

When there is no need to pay the players to perform badly as their normal performance in itself is horrible :hehe:

[express bowling]

When the most experienced pacer in the pavar haus bowling attack has a bowling average of around 31 in test matches. When the batting averages of top batsmen and the bowling averages of top bowlers are somewhat similar in test matches for the pavarhaus team. :winky:

[hify_ameet]

Stop derailing this "King of Good Times - :beer-bottle: " thread by bringing in the umpiring discussion.. BTW, on topic: You know thngs are good, when " You know Things are bad " Thread keeps bumping in Padosi Forum.. :icflove: