Should gurus and babas lead political campaigns?

[King Tendulkar]

I don't think you normally have protesters injecting themselves into committees. Yes administrators are picked by elected officials to advise them. You have the IAS officials and cabinet secretaries for that. These are the guys who are familiar with the process and have knowledge of international issues who can help draft a bill' date=' not Anna Hazare and retired judges and Yoga Gurus.[/quote'] You can have anyone on a commitee or advisory committe. No rules or regulations on this. The govt has decided to bring them in and rightly so. As in such a matter you cant allow mps to choose who they want as they are the ones the whole god dammn act is about as they are the robbers of our money! The MPs cannot be truted here, as they want the gravy train to continue. Need civl people here to ensure they do it properly and dont fudge it so the the status quo continues and they keep piling crores in to to their mouths. What some want is basicaaly rapists coming together and decideing amongst themselves what laws should be implemented if any against rapists. I mean really cant you guys see why 3rd parties are needed here to ensure it is done properly, bloody hell its seems as if most want the corruption to continue and India to carry on its merry little way

[Guest Gunner]

You have been schooled hence you dont want to debate. Lets debate the whites just gave blacks the powers stance of yours and Mandela and co did jack. That was one of your more intersting thoughts

If that makes you feel good, fine I have no objections. My parents always taught me to be charitable.

[yoda]

You can have anyone on a commitee or advisory committe. No rules or regulations on this. The govt has decided to bring them in and rightly so. As in such a matter you cant allow mps to choose who they want as they are the ones the whole god dammn act is about as they are the robbers of our money! The MPs cannot be truted here, as they want the gravy train to continue. Need civl people here to ensure they do it properly and dont fudge it so the the status quo continues and they keep piling crores in to to their mouths. What some want is basicaaly rapists coming together and decideing amongst themselves what laws should be implemented if any against rapists. I mean really cant you guys see why 3rd parties are needed here to ensure it is done properly, bloody hell its seems as if most want the corruption to continue and India to carry on its merry little way

Listen, whether you like it not, even government reform has to be done by the government. That's the way it works in a democracy. They have a unique power to govern which includes governing themselves. I agree that this problem is very unique, in that if left to themselves, OUR CORRUPT govt. isn't going to give even an iota of their time in fixing this. So the pressure needs to built on them to fix this via protests/marches/whatever. However, when it comes to drafting of the bill, it should be the job of qualified advisers, not random people. Otherwise we set a precedence for future protests by random groups who would want to force themselves into drafting of future bills which suit their agenda.

[King Tendulkar]

Listen, whether you like it not, even government reform has to be done by the government. That's the way it works in a democracy. They have a unique power to govern which includes governing themselves. I agree that this problem is very unique, in that if left to themselves, OUR CORRUPT govt. isn't going to give even an iota of their time in fixing this. So the pressure needs to built on them to fix this via protests/marches/whatever. However, when it comes to drafting of the bill, it should be the job of qualified advisers, not random people. Otherwise we set a precedence for future protests by random groups who would want to force themselves into drafting of future bills which suit their agenda.

Protests can only sustain momentum if they are a valid cause and due to govt non activity and not listening to people. India is full of protests every day all over the place,so mnay to mention, you guys ever heard of a bandhs, happens all the time, why the panick about this very valid protest, so no idea why everyon is panicking as if anarchy has ensued. This is a bigger picture cause which all sundry support. Its like someone marching saying poverty must be eradicted, hardly contreversial. As for drafting of a bill, who decides whi is expert or not. Ex judges and ex policeman seem to be very valid people to consult on anti corruption bill. Especially as police and judges are also very corrupt, so they know how it works!

[King Tendulkar]

Listen, whether you like it not, even government reform has to be done by the government. That's the way it works in a democracy. They have a unique power to govern which includes governing themselves. I agree that this problem is very unique, in that if left to themselves, OUR CORRUPT govt. isn't going to give even an iota of their time in fixing this. So the pressure needs to built on them to fix this via protests/marches/whatever. However, when it comes to drafting of the bill, it should be the job of qualified advisers, not random people. Otherwise we set a precedence for future protests by random groups who would want to force themselves into drafting of future bills which suit their agenda.

O and by the way never forget. The bill can be drafted with help from civil memebrs. If MPs dont like it then they done vote for it , simple! Why the panick, all perfectly constitunial. I repeat bills, laws need many outside help. I really dont think many understand how bills are drafted and how enormous outside/civil input is required and is used. This is just the norm having committes with outside experts, why the panick now??? No one forced goct to put them in, they did it cos they know how wrong they have been and how the public is demanding this. The people do not trust MP to legilsate effectivley to curb their money grabbing. If there was just MPs on the lokpal committee. Does anyone think they will draft it fairly and effectivley?

[yoda]

As for drafting of a bill, who decides whi is expert or not. Ex judges and ex policeman seem to be very valid people to consult on anti corruption bill. Especially as police and judges are also very corrupt, so they know how it works!

Ok you think Yoga Gurus and Policemen and judges are better at drafting bills than cabinet secretaries and IAS officials. I disagree.

[King Tendulkar]

Ok you think Yoga Gurus and Policemen and judges are better at drafting bills than cabinet secretaries and IAS officials. I disagree.

Well gurus no. But judges and policemen can certailny giuve valid inputs, as well as cabinet secretaries, Ias officals and others. In fact I feel here the lay man could give some very valid inputs in this matter. You dont have exclude anyone, in fact many such committes invite many people of all types. All inputs can be valid. They are going to give inputs and HELP draft it. It seems you want to leave it all to polticians. p.s IAS officers are disgutingly corrupt and are stinking rich, most are scum who collect money for fun. High ranking police also scum with disgusting amounts of money and judges as well. The less people in actual ranked positions drafting this bill the better, as they are all on gravy train.

[asterix]

Ok you think Yoga Gurus and Policemen and judges are better at drafting bills than cabinet secretaries and IAS officials. I disagree.

O Bawa, they are not literally drafting the bills. The Civilian guys also have a set of babus to help them..They are there to keep the Govt. on track and formulate the main points of the bill. BTW don't mix this with Babas etc. Babas will never get entry in Drafting panels like this. Hazare didn't even want to be in the panel.. Talk about completely missing the point. Instead of being greatful to what these guys are doing, we have the attitude to discredit them in every way possible.. :headshake: In any case, the things are moving in the right direction. Hoping for the best..

[yoda]

Talk about completely missing the point. Instead of being greatful to what these guys are doing, we have the attitude to discredit them in every way possible.. :headshake: In any case, the things are moving in the right direction. Hoping for the best..

If you read my posts again, I am very happy and grateful that these movements are taking place to force the hand of the government. What I don't like is these civilians thrusting themselves into the actual committee which draft these bills because it sets a bad precedent.

[asterix]

If you read my posts again' date=' I am very happy and grateful that these movements are taking place to force the hand of the government. What I don't like is these civilians thrusting themselves into the actual committee which draft these bills.[/quote'] Nobody likes it. Those Civilians too don't like it..Ofcourse the Govt. too doesn't likes it.. But there's so much distrust out there, you cannot leave it to Govt for drafting the bill.. Do you know what Govt. is trying to draft? They practically want everybody out of the jurisdiction of the bill.. So much of effort just to have lower level babus coming under the anti-graft bill? What happens to the Kalmadis, Rajas, Marans etc? Why need a separate bill then? CVC is already there (albiet having a tainted chief). Why do all these showbaazi? The Civil society guys are trying to GET IT DONE properly and hand it over to the politicians to whether pass it or not. In any case the Politicians not gonna pass it any sooner. I mean they've sat on it for no less than 42 years!! Let me know your views..Are you happy to have a bill to check the lower level babus wonly?

[yoda]

Let me know your views..Are you happy to have a bill to check the lower level babus wonly?

Ofc not, but I don't want no names who have no mandate from the people giving themselves the authority to draft bills either, cause that will make us a Banana Republic.

[asterix]

Ofc not' date=' but I don't want no names who have no mandate from the people giving themselves the authority to draft bills either, cause that will make us a Banana Republic.[/quote'] Banana Republic.. :hysterical: Kalmadi, A Raja etc. had mandates..Look what they did.. :giggle: Let's agree to disagree..

[urbestfriend]

Law Making in India A good article about how a law is drafted.. It isn’t every day that you hear of the common man of this country wondering who actually makes the law in this country. The chaos surrounding the Jan Lokpal Bill however has forced this debate on us, especially the notification of a drafting committee consisting of Ministers and the self-appointed guardian angels of civil society. Hazare’s demand for a joint committee and the government’s capitulation to it is typical of the Indian way of life which seeks to treat the symptoms without even diagnosing the cause of the symptoms. Which bring us to the question – what is the disease in the process of Indian law-making? To answer this question we need to get back to the basics of how laws are actually made in this country. With the rare exception of the Right to Information Act, 2005 and the NREGA Act, both of which were drafted by the National Advisory Council (NAC), most legislation emanates from the hallowed chambers of our civil service bureaucracy. The process usually gets kicked off by the Ministry in charge outsourcing the entire drafting process to a law firm or a special interest group, after which the draft is circulated to all Ministries for their comments, after which it is introduced into Parliament. This first stage in itself is marked by a ‘conflict of interest’ i.e. bureaucrats whom the legislation is aiming to regulate are the ones drafting the legislation in the first place. The most blatant example of this have been the cases where the Indian Legal Service (ILS), the cadre which controls the Legislative Department of the Ministry of Law & Justice, have drafted legislations in such a manner that they appoint themselves, post-retirement, as judicial members of tribunals taking over the functions of the High Courts. This was partly facilitated by the fact that the Legislative Department of the Ministry of Law and Justice is the Department responsible for introducing all government legislation into Parliament. The second stage of sabotage by the Central Government bureaucracy is the insertion of this innocuous sounding clause right in the beginning of a Bill, which states that the power to notify the various provisions of the Bill is vested with the Central Government. There have thus been several legislations, including Constitutional Amendments, which though passed by Parliament have not yet been notified by our actual rulers – the babudom. In that sense, the RTI Act was path-breaking, since it automatically implemented the provisions of the Bill within 120 days of it being passed by Parliament. The main problem with the Central Government is that it has absolutely no uniform process of legislative drafting or consultation before the legislation is introduced into Parliament. Some bills like the Copyright (Amendment) Bill, 2010 & the Public Funded Research and Development (Protection, Utilization and Regulation of Intellectual Property) (PFRDA) Bill, 2007 were shrouded in absolutely secrecy until they were introduced in Parliament. However the same government has invited comments on other bills like the National Identification Authority of India Bill, 2010 even before they were introduced in Parliament. Till date I have not heard a single justifiable reason as to why proposed legislation, the very essence of our democracy, are considered confidential. Why doesn’t the Central Government have any rules to regulate this process? Now after a Bill is introduced into Parliament, in the normal course of events it is referred to one of the 24 Department Related- Parliamentary Standing Committees, each consisting of atleast 31 MPs from both houses. This system was introduced in the year 1993 because Parliament was starting to feel the pressures of time and the need to scrutinize legislation more minutely. Although the initial reports of these Parliamentary Standing Committees have been rather disappointing, they have really picked up pace in the last few years. Some of these reports have been excellent, even by academic standards. In some instances like the PFRDA Bill, 2007 the Standing Committee forced the government to make a record 52 amendments to its original draft. However in other cases like the bill proposing the National Tax Tribunal, the Government proceeded to completely ignore the recommendations of the Standing Committee and pushed for the Bill to be passed through Parliament. Soon as the Bill was passed it was challenged before the judiciary and has since been languishing over there. The pertinent issue over here is whether or not these Standing Committees are an effective interface with members of the public seeking to put forth their views. From the little experience that I’ve had before these Committees, as a member of small group of young academics/lawyers, there does not seem to be any fixed system to guarantee an effective consultation process. While anybody can send in a written memorandum, an invitation is necessary from the Committee for an oral hearing. This invitation is completely discretionary. The Committees examining the Civil Nuclear Liability Bill, 2010 and the Prevention of Torture Bill had invited our small group as expert witnesses because one of the MPs Mr. S.S. Ahluwalia, had actually gone through our written memorandums and was impressed with the quality of research and the recommendations being submitted by us. The advantage of being invited as an expert witness is the fact that you tend to get more time to present your views before the Committee. Contrast this with the hearing we received for the Judicial Standards and Accountability Bill, 2010. This Committee went overboard and invited everybody who sent in written memorandums and conducted the entire hearing on one day. The problem with this was the fact that despite our group preparing a solid 84 pages report, the lead author of which, was a PhD student at Oxford, specializing in the subject of judicial independence, we were given the same 10 minutes of oral hearing as the other elderly gentlemen who had come to rail against the system without providing any constructive criticism. Therefore although Standing Committees do provide a platform for broad public consultations there is still much that needs to be done in ensuring that it is an effective consultative process.. Messers Hazare and Co. would have done well to agitate for a cure to the disease and not merely a cure for the symptom as they have done http://www.criticaltwenties.in/uncategorized/law-making-in-india All the posters here questioning about civil involvement in law making 1) Clearly there is conflict of interest if bureaucracy is allowed in drafting special laws like Jan lokpal bill , there is nothing wrong if experts outside government joins government in drafting. 2) As explained in this article, there is due process which is to be followed once it is introduced in the parliament like parliamentary standing committees etc before it is put into vote in Loksabha and Rajyasabha. So the fear that civil involvement in law making results in unimplementable laws is unfounded. 3) Committee members of lokpall drafting committee from Civil society are experts( There are three eminent lawyers , one supreme court judge and present lokpal of Karnataka, a former IPS officer) and they are asking government to record the committee proceedings and telecast it for higher transparency. I'm sure all of you will agree this is much better than secrecy which is being followed in drafting the law by the government.

[yoda]

Banana Republic.. :hysterical:

Yes, can you imagine what this is opening up to? Future protests for random issues with people wanting to be on a panel to draft legislation.

Kalmadi, A Raja etc. had mandates..Look what they did.. :giggle:

No one is debating whether we have crooks who get elected. That is a well known fact. That doesn't mean we take the power to legislate away from the government.

[yoda]

3) Committee members of lokpall drafting committee from Civil society are experts( There are three eminent lawyers , one supreme court judge and present lokpal of Karnataka, a former IPS officer) and they are asking government to record the committee proceedings and telecast it for higher transparency. I'm sure all of you will agree this is much better than secrecy which is being followed in drafting the law by the government.

Yes, in this case the civil society does have credibility, but that does not mean it is the way to do business, by people hand picked by protesters to join the govt in forming committee to draft legislation.

[urbestfriend]

Yes' date=' in this case the civil society does have credibility, but that does not mean it is the way to do business, by people hand picked by protesters to join the govt in forming committee to draft legislation.[/quote'] Do you understand that this was people's movement and government has to include them because of mass support this movement has gathered? If you dont have mass support , govt will care two hoots about you no matter what protest you do.

[yoda]

Do you understand that this was people's movement and government has to include them because of mass support this movement has gathered? If you dont have mass support ' date=' govt will care two hoots about you no matter what protest you do.[/quote'] Yes yes I understand that this was people's movement. Just be prepared for many such people's movement all over the country going forward, now that people have realized that they can have a direct say in legislation.

[Guest Gunner]

Yes, can you imagine what this is opening up to? Future protests for random issues with people wanting to be on a panel to draft legislation. No one is debating whether we have crooks who get elected. That is a well known fact. That doesn't mean we take the power to legislate away from the government.

YOu are wasting your breathe mate. Most of the guys here have decided to be thick on purpose. I have written doen the constitutionality argument like 60 times on this thread wasting all sunday and have given up now. They wont understand how the messiah syndrome works, till it happens and they get a dictator.

[asterix]

Arrey bhai, I doesn't matters if we are "thick/idiot etc." or not..Whatever happens will happen and it's for the people of India to decide.. At the end of the day, it was Govts call. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. You created National Advisory Council (NAC). You created Lokapal Bill Drafting Committee..It was your call. In a democracy people have right to protest peacefully. You cannot deny that right to the people. Ultimately it's the Govts call to whether create or not create a panel/avisory like that or not. People have been protesting peace fully and you cannot blame the people/groups for the present situation. It''s the pathetic governance and failure of the parliamentary process that people are forced to protest. You can call those people "thick/idiots" whatever you like. It doesn't helps them or affects them whatever you guys think of them..

[Guest Gunner]

Arrey bhai, I doesn't matters if we are "thick/idiot etc." or not..Whatever happens will happen and it's for the people of India to decide.. At the end of the day, it was Govts call. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. You created National Advisory Council (NAC). You created Lokapal Bill Drafting Committee..It was your call. In a democracy people have right to protest peacefully. You cannot deny that right to the people. Ultimately it's the Govts call to whether create or not create a panel/avisory like that or not. People have been protesting peace fully and you cannot blame the people/groups for the present situation. It''s the pathetic governance and failure of the parliamentary process that people are forced to protest. You can call those people "thick/idiots" whatever you like. It doesn't helps them or affects them whatever you guys think of them..

I didn't call anyone an idiot other than KT since he was rambling on and on without understanding a word of what I said. For the sake of clarity I am not against the right of people to protest.