FYI - Bheem and Others

[CC1981]

Heck if overwhelming 90+% [CC’s fairy-tale aside I believe electoral data supports this number; travesty is after openly espousing the cause 90% of these folks decided to stay back to work for another dar-ul-islam]

90% supported making partition = pure nonsensical fictitious data.

Alas in court of law these baseless allegations do not count.

Alas also in a court of law the type of hinduvta *******panti exists to cover up the hitler types (modi).

If this is not the case I would like to see incidents like u saw recently in NJ where muslim community themselves spied on these criminals. You would be hard-pressed to find any such instance in India.

Utter bullshyte...muslims in India are very much involved and part of the official agencies trying to track & eliminate terrorism.

Never saw any christian unfurling Vatican flag anywhere.

We havn't played the vatican in any sport for the flags to come out!

Let us face it India is no cuckoo-land where u can’t get a case registered against an individual in office.

And lets face it, like in Lallo-land, in modi-land you get the government goondas killing you or your family if you are gonna go against sickos like Modi.

Without a fail they seek new nation everywhere they can there is no exception whatsoever only thing variable is critical mass depending on rest of the populace’s tolerance level.

'they' are a small % of the muslim community, not the muslim community in all.

You guys may call me pessimist but to be optimist I would need at least one exception where these folks have not triggered secessionist activity.

Chinese Turkestan. Sri Lanka.

but can’t toe starry-eyed lines for the sake of being politically correct.

But we can't cook up numbers like '90% muslims wanted pakistan' either. what you called 'smokescreen' was perfect lesson in democratic representative elections for you and your hinduvta brigade- which as is usual for the saffron-fanatics, went unanswered.

[Lurker]

If it means working against the interest of your country as of today then no not all of them are traitor but a very significant percent of them are. I have reasons to believe this other than my personal experience. (1) There can’t happen terror attacks unless someone local works as these criminals bogey. Now once in a while under lure of money even non-muslims have been found aiding these criminals but as a principle without expecting any monetary gain the support for these folks comes from only muslims. (2) If this is not the case I would like to see incidents like u saw recently in NJ where muslim community themselves spied on these criminals. You would be hard-pressed to find any such instance in India. All u get to hear afrom them after every terror attack when police springs into action , that they are being unnecessarily victimized. (3) Then u have this sporadic instance of rejoicing over Pakistan win and unfurling Pakistan flag every now and then. Never saw any christian unfurling Vatican flag anywhere.

If those three are the crux of your arguments then you fall woefully short must say. For starters I am sure you do realize that the Public Enemy no 1 as far as India is concerned - D company - had tons of Hindus working for them. And if you go back further in time for Bombay Underworld you had a Varda Bhai for a Haji Mastaan, not to mention an Arun Gawli, Amar Naik etc for a Dawood. Even within Dawood's gang there were a lot of Hindus, his political connections are almost ALL Hindus. Indeed it has been rumoured that he has some sort of understanding with Thackeray's son as well. And if you insist of getting some names I am sure you know of Congree leader Ramesh Sharma. Here I pulled something really quickly: Let me cite one instance: the strange case of Amina Bi Kaskar, Dawood Ibrahim's mother. By now, it has been widely reported how Romesh Sharma pulled strings to get her a new passport so that she could leave the country in a hurry http://www.indianexpress.com/res/web/pIe/ie/daily/19981119/32350634.html And by the way how convinient is it to suggest if a Muslim does illegal he is anti-social but if a Hindu does it, it is because he came "under the lure of money"? Your part about celebration by Muslims while Pakistan is ridiculous. I dare you to use that exact same yardstick and paint UK-Indian posters who live in England and routinely suggest they would NEVER support England when they play India, with the same colour . Heck many of these "Brits" are happy if England keeps losing to everyone else(forget India). Why do so many NRI's, specially from England, support India over England? If we use your yardstick then they are all anti-national, are they not? Look I would say that it bugs me as well when Indians in India celebrate India's loss to any other country. I am not different from you in that. But to use that yardstick to say someone is anti-national is unfair or half of Indians living abroad(UK/AUS/NZ etc etc) would fall under the same category. xxxx

[King]

Some very good posts by DR and Lurker. Both have valid points. I don't see a solution to this though, life just goes on :regular_smile:

[Lurker]

Reg gangsters commiting crimes ... you will find no Hindu worth his salt side with them just because they happen to be Hindus ... Nobody shed a tear during the recent sentencing .... whereas we all know the following for Abu Salem ... he is kinda of a cult hero. Ditto with Afzal Guru.

Thats a classic misnomer. When it comes to idolizing gangsters there is no religious bias, even if right-wing Hindus tend to harp on those lines. If you differ can you help me understand how did Veerapan get so much support over the years? Was his support base Hindu or Muslim?? A curt to the point answer will be appreciated.

Indians in UK have not asked for a seperate homeland and personal laws within UK .... whereas Muslims have not once but twice in India... hence the difference in yardstick.

Again a misnomer. For starters your point, citizens in a country asking for a seperate land, is NOT..I repeat NOT any of DR's 3 points that I am specifically arguing against here, so I frankly should not even be answering this question. So keeping in sync with the question of "Muslims supporting a different country than India" here is my question back at you...What do you have to say about Brits who support any other country other than England?? Again a curt point would be appreciated.

PS : Wo Gandhi waala thread aur "There was No sharia Ever" thread mei response milega ?

Milega. Gimme a couple of days on this one. xxx

[CC1981]

Yeah..i don't think Veerappan is fighting from a hindu-base either. Its an ethnic conflict, not a religious one- the Tamils in Lanka are mostly hindus while the rest of the Lankans(Sinhalese) are mostly buddhist. You'd think that if this was a religious struggle for the past 20 years, a few buddhist or hindu temples/religious people would've gone kaboom both in Sri Lanka and in India.

[CC1981]

That is the whole basis of DR's apprehension ... i.e the long history and trend of seperatism.

Seperate land and seperate nation are NOT the same thing !! Seperate land means recognition/autonomy etc. The native americans up north wanted a seperate land and they got it- Nunavut, that was carved out of NW Territorries & Quebec. They are still a part of Canada though and it was never an issue of seperate nation.

[Lurker]

I did not know he had such mass following just because he was a Hindu ... that just is factually wrong ... he got support from villagers by first terrorising them and then by being their Robin-Hood on a few occasions ... BTW care to tell me how he got betrayed by a Hindu in the end ?

Never said Veerapan was fighting from for a Hindu platform. My question to you is - Which community formed the support base of Veerapan. Hindu or Muslim? To the point answer would be appreciated.

That is the whole basis of DR's apprehension ... i.e the long history and trend of seperatism.

I think DR is capable of speaking for himself. No need to do hand-holding here. Here is what DR very very clearly writes - Then u have this sporadic instance of rejoicing over Pakistan win and unfurling Pakistan flag every now and then. Never saw any christian unfurling Vatican flag anywhere. There is no talk of sepearation whatsoever. If he is indeed suggesting so then he needs to put it in, I am not going to do the legwork. Regardless I would like to hear it from his mouth and not yours. xxx

[CC1981]

If it means working against the interest of your country as of today then no not all of them are traitor but a very significant percent of them are. I have reasons to believe this other than my personal experience.

That is a totally dumb perspective to have- to see the world only as through personal experience and nothing more- for people's personal experiences are different and your personal experience with muslims won't be even 0.0001% of the total muslim population of India...my personal experience says that fundie muslims or muslims who can be called traitors are a small % of the total population....so your generalization about a 150 million-strong community based on personal experience is not only a flawed perspective, it is the root of ambiguity and the mask behind which your hatred hides. Anyone can have any set of personal experiences from the infinite set available...doesnt mean that your 'universe created through personal experience' is the objective reality or any more credible than my universe of personal experiences.

If it means them being sympathetic to the cause of carving India out once more for creating another dar-ul-islam in future then answer is yes more or less every one of them are traitor

Utterly false, rubbish and nothing more than baseless allegations constructed to justify your blind hatred. Most muslims in India are not interested in creating another partition. As far as i am concerned, you are the bigger traitor since your ideas and the ideas of your fellow hinduvta cohorts if brought to fruititon are far more damaging for India. And the only rational guage for a traitor is whether his/her action or beleif is damaging for his/her nation. In your case this holds true and thus, not only are you a racist and fundamentalist hindu nutter, you are also a traitor, albeit blissfully ignorant of it.

[Lurker]

I never claimed he was fighting from a Hindu platform .... What I said is the people(even if they were Hindu) who supported him did so because of reasons other than him being a Hindu .... Do you see the difference ? Even when he was brutally gunned down there were no riots no protests nothing ..... whereas a Afzal Guru gets sentenced after due process and all hell broke lose. Do you not see the difference ?

Completely irrelevant. Answer my question straight up BB - Which community did Veerapan derive his support from? Hindu or Muslim? Its a Yes/NO question. Give me a straight answer.

And what s with all the "Technical" and "legal" ... isnt it obvious what Dada is implying ? Is it soo important for you to spell out every little itsy bitsy detail ? Why the nit-picking ... ?

Again I would appreciate if you let DR speak for himself. Secondly yes it is very important to me. When an Indian choses to cast stones on a large segment of Indian population he better tell it to me why and in straight language. I am not gonna assume anything. xxx

[Lurker]

As far as i am concerned, you are the bigger traitor since your ideas and the ideas of your fellow hinduvta cohorts if brought to fruititon are far more damaging for India. And the only rational guage for a traitor is whether his/her action or beleif is damaging for his/her nation. In your case this holds true and thus, not only are you a racist and fundamentalist hindu nutter, you are also a traitor, albeit blissfully ignorant of it.

As far as I am concerned folks like DR are as big a traitor as those trying to carve up India. Chaps like him live in a la-la land that they are somehow above another fellow Muslim citizen of India. Reality is constitutiion of India gives everyone equal rights - Hindu or Muslims. The tragedy of course is that cohorts like him shall push away even level-minded Indian Muslims. I mean if I was an Indian Muslim what would I make out of blanket statements like - "If it means them being sympathetic to the cause of carving India out once more for creating another dar-ul-islam in future then answer is yes more or less every one of them are traitor". Of course he will have no data to back it up but it will not stop him from calling his fellow citizens traitors. xxx

[Guest dada_rocks]

90% supported making partition = pure nonsensical fictitious data. Alas also in a court of law the type of hinduvta *******panti exists to cover up the hitler types (modi). Utter bullshyte...muslims in India are very much involved and part of the official agencies trying to track & eliminate terrorism. We havn't played the vatican in any sport for the flags to come out! And lets face it, like in Lallo-land, in modi-land you get the government goondas killing you or your family if you are gonna go against sickos like Modi. 'they' are a small % of the muslim community, not the muslim community in all. Chinese Turkestan. Sri Lanka. But we can't cook up numbers like '90% muslims wanted pakistan' either. what you called 'smokescreen' was perfect lesson in democratic representative elections for you and your hinduvta brigade- which as is usual for the saffron-fanatics, went unanswered.

90+% I have proved in our earlier debate if u want I can again post those data .. here is the number 86% votes jinnha got from region desginated as minority when he asekd vote in name of pakistan earlier elections when he had not given calrion call for pakistan he was nowhere near this number. 14% off the target can be ascribed to presence of majority population in that region. If u can refute this number feel free.. rest of the post is usual garbage hence ignored.. China has already faced call for secession and they are dealing with communist obviuously critical mass needed will be much more Srilanak well is mired in another war and again the number is well below crityical mass even with that number they have succesffully stalled one round of talk between ltet and singhalese by asking for autonomy for believer dominated areas.. another turkey kind of example.. try again:giggle:

[The Outsider]

Superb OP KR. Very well thought out, researched, and extremely well written. Maybe you should add it to your blog. Will receive a wider audience.

[Guest dada_rocks]

Lurker heres is the response if u want it from horse's mouth. Though I can see people have already addressed it . My response too wopuld dwell on same lines a criminal who does crime for money and a crminal who does crime as a principle are two different things. Since dawood morphed into later category from first you would not find many if any willing individual of hindu community aiding his crime-syndicate. Ironically even criminals have conscience when it comes to religion after all carl marx was right religion is opium of masses.:giggle:

[Lurker]

Ok lets see where this leads to. Lets say they were all 100% Hindus ... What now ?

Good. So now are you willing to correct yourself when you made that blanket statement - "Reg gangsters commiting crimes ... you will find no Hindu worth his salt side with them just because they happen to be Hindus"??

And please answer my question .... Do you think whatever support Veerappan got was because he was a Hindu ? Straight answer will be appreciated.

Some part of it would be Yes. What %age of it all? I do not know. Just as you would be hard pressed to prove what %age of D-company is derived out of support for being Muslim. Now lets roll back the debate to where it was before you brought in irrelevant bits like Afzal Guru. Do you agree/disagree that bulk of Dawood Ibrahim's political support comes from Hindu political leaders? I have mentioned Romesh Sharma. Tell me if you agree/disagree. xxxx

[Guest dada_rocks]

And lets face it, like in Lallo-land, in modi-land you get the government goondas killing you or your family if you are gonna go against sickos like Modi. ********************************************************* Again i will exhort u to go check your facts. Killing voice of adversary is most rampant in West Bengal and comes naturally to communazi society. U can check whichever crime data-base u want result will be the same. A communazi clown talking about these things well sounds utterly ironic to say the least.

[CC1981]

. Killing voice of adversary is most rampant in West Bengal

False. And i've already proven your this spiel to be false too.

. A communazi clown talking about these things well sounds utterly ironic to say the least.

I've asked you before to not use words you do not know the meanings of..but you refuse to be educated in this matter too...such a hard-headed chap, you are!

[CC1981]

As far as I am concerned folks like DR are as big a traitor as those trying to carve up India. Chaps like him live in a la-la land that they are somehow above another fellow Muslim citizen of India. Reality is constitutiion of India gives everyone equal rights - Hindu or Muslims. The tragedy of course is that cohorts like him shall push away even level-minded Indian Muslims. I mean if I was an Indian Muslim what would I make out of blanket statements like - "If it means them being sympathetic to the cause of carving India out once more for creating another dar-ul-islam in future then answer is yes more or less every one of them are traitor". Of course he will have no data to back it up but it will not stop him from calling his fellow citizens traitors. xxx

Precisely. But you see, religious fundamentalists like d_r have far deepseated issues that refuse to be remedied with reason or facts..notice his distinct lack of appreciation of facts when i educated him in that Bengali history thread. Their types are far too under-educated and under-travelled to appreciate the larger picture.

[CC1981]

90+% I have proved in our earlier debate if u want I can again post those data ..

Stop lying. I proved to you that your idea that 90% of muslims voted for it is pure guess-work and factual inaccuracies...and i've proved to you precisely why such an extrapolation is invalid by educating you in basic electoral dynamics. You took the fact that 90% or so constituencies with muslim majority voting for ML as 90% muslims voting for ML, without slightest idea on the data of what the district-by-district voting breakdown was, whether it was a 90-10 majority or a 55-45 majority. Only data you have is what % of muslim-majority constituenies went ML and what % went Congress...not what the voting breakdown in the masses were. Threfore, as i've proved before and i am forced to do this because of your lying tendencies, your comment that 90% muslims voted for seperation is nothing but unadulterated BS. So either you are deliberately trying to cook up and misrepresent data or you are not educated enough in these matters to properly interpret the data. But then again, your education level and reasoning ability as well as your intentions towards objectivity are highly questionable to me anyways. So i don't expect much better from racist & fundamentalist slimeballs like yourself who goes and gets himself banned in half the sites around the net.

[Lurker]

? right after u prove that Veerappan got support because he was a HIndu ... which is what i have been banging my head about .

No you have not. What you have been banging your head about is that Muslim gangsters get their support because they are Muslims. Alright then go ahead and prove it with solid numbers. I would categorically like to state that Veerapan, a Hindu, derived his support from Hindu and hence it is as good a assumption as any that there would be some co-relation between the two.

I will make this very easy for you .... lets assume that he gets 100% support from Hindus .... I say take them all down ... and you will find no average joe supoprting these guys ... The same cannot be said about the people you are defending.

First of all I am not defending anyone. I am merely suggesting the holes in the theory - "Muslim gangsters derive all their support from muslims". Secondly do you agree/disagree with the premise that D-company political patronage is almost EXCLUSIVELY Hindu? Agree or disagree?

Why is his case irrelevant ?

His case is irrelevant because the part where you picked upon my argument was talking specifically about India's Public Enemny Number 1 - D Company and how Hindus have supported it. Please feel free to refer to that part of my post and tell me how is Afzal Guru relevant to D-company and its political patronage. xxx

[Lurker]

Afzal Guru - Enough said Abu Salem (There was a thread here with news article and Video footage of him being worshipped by his followers) Dawood

Afzal Guru is NOT a gangster so I shall repeat again. He is irrelevant. As for Abu Salem and Dawood can you prove it that bulk of their support comes from being Muslim? Another question for you now. Speaking of support can you please tell me how do the Bahubalis(strongmen) in Bihar/UP etc derive their support?

I dont know who supports him from India even now .... but I will take your word.

No you do not have to take my word here. Here are some simple facts. Dawood Ibrahim was protege of Ramabhai Naik, a Hindu Don who was later gunned down in quest for power(allegedly on behest of Dawood himself). Dawood had political patronage of Congress party. I have already given the evidence of Romesh Sharm's involvement. It is also prudent to note that after Bombay blasts Dawood Ibrahim wanted to surrender but was NOT allowed to do so because of the Congress CM, then Sharad Pawar. Pawar's stand is that he was not prepared to do any bargain with Dawood(Dawood wanted life immunity). While none of us may not know exactly the truth the fact is that this(Dawood surrender) has been confirmed by the 3 parties - Sharad Pawar(CM), Ram Jethmalani(Attorney of Dawood) and Dawood himself. And if you still do not buy that let me end this with what Hindu-Hridaysamrat Balashaheb Thackeray had to say during his election campaign(post Bombay riots) - "Unke paas Dawood hai to apne paas Gawli hai"(reference to Arun Gawli). Any Mumbaite/Maharastrian should be able to confirm all of that to you. Or you can look that up on web. So now is the question BB - Do you agree that Dawood Ibrahim had support from both Muslims as well as Hindus? In fact Hindu support would be far more detrimental since most of the political bigwigs behind him are ALL Hindus. Agreed or disagreed? xxxx