Terror attacks (UK)

[Ram]

What cold war mentality are you talking about. USA is arming our No1 enemy and Is it some consolation for you if they sell us some arms ? Jesus ' date=' get real mate. They have a bad history of dumping their SE Asians allies. Case in point Pakistan and Afghanistan. Only now, they are trying to mend fences with Pakistan because they need them to fight Taliban in NW Pakistan.[/quote'] Long gone are the days when the US explicitly favoured Pak for India. And when was Afghanistan EVER an ally of US ? i dont recall it being that way. I am talking about weapons that help us win a war against China ( or even better , stop china from having the cheek to start a war with us). And FYI, India is the ONLY country that the US offered to sell the Phalcon AWACS systems to, not anybody else. They also seem willing to part with Arrow anti-missile tech. These are weapons that NO country apart from US and Russia have KR. If we have them , it will change the face of our entire military. There will be quantum jump in our military might in S.Asia.

[CC1981]

And this aint no world war 2 ! nor is this a U-boat ! Do you know that once ordered , a Phalcon takes a full two and half years to build ? These are not maruti 800 models , to keep churning from the production line.

Dude, our preparation IS for a WWII-type scenario. because thats how long and protracted a full-blown war with China will last (without nukes). It took germany six months to build an U-boat in pre-war production mode. In War production-mode, at peak capacity, they reduced it to ONE WEEK. so your 2.5 year long project is replaced in six weeks. Whopee-tee-ding. Thats like your AWACS getting shot down in beginning of kargil and before its over, there's one back up in the air.

I quite dont get what you are saying. The Russians co-operated with us on Brahmos because we had superior technology on missile guidance ( yes , believe it or not . this is true !) and we were willing to shell out the $300 million to finance the project.

What i am saying is that if they are willing to part with scramjet technology in a workable under-water launch scenario, they will give us the missile-defence stuff too. We just need to approach at the proper political climate & shell out enough $$

and trust me , it will work fine during war.

It will work fine. for a day. Then it gets shot down. Then we are fracked if we cant build one up ASAP.

I am talking about weapons systems that can win India a war , that can save millions of people and here you are talking about India realizing its potential ! Dunno what else to say.

But it is NOT going to win us the war if we dont know how the hell to BUILD IT OR REPAIR IT ! China could easily just *DAMAGE* the cr@p we get and we are hooped if we cannot fix the goddamn thing ! If China initiates the war, we will lose nomatter what unless we can RECOVER from chinese first-strike by being able to BUILD the stuff they destroyed on an emergency-production basis. And we wont be able to BUILD the damn things by buying American products! If your military philosophy cannot recover in war from the initial opening attack, you will lose. Period. Aint no amount of 'purchased tech' will help you if the initial salvo does irreversable damage.

[kumble_rocks]

Long gone are the days when the US explicitly favoured Pak for India. And when was Afghanistan EVER an ally of US ? i dont recall it being that way. I am talking about weapons that help us win a war against China ( or even better , stop china from having the cheek to start a war with us). And FYI, India is the ONLY country that the US offered to sell the Phalcon AWACS systems to, not anybody else. They also seem willing to part with Arrow anti-missile tech. These are weapons that NO country apart from US and Russia have KR. If we have them , it will change the face of our entire military. There will be quantum jump in our military might in S.Asia.

I do see your view point and it is a very valid one. I don't know what is the solution to upgrading our weaponary. US dumped Pakistan in the 90's and they had no maintenance contract on their F-16's back then. What if a similar situation happens with India. BTW, If I am not mistaken Phalcon AWACS systems was offered by Israel , not USA. And USA raised objection to the sale. Mujahideen Afghanistan was an ally of USA during the 80's when US was trying to overturn USSR backed Najibullah government.

[Ram]

I do see that Maris Mania makes a very valid point. I don't know what is the solution to upgrading our weaponary. US dumped Pakistan in the 90's and they had no maintenance contract on their F-16's back then. What if a similar situation happens with India.

Its like choosing the devil and deep sea KR. You have to take your chances in thses big-ticket military purchases. Consider this situation KR, Somebody walks upto and says he is willing to sell you technology that stop pakistani nuclear missiles from landing Mumbai, Kolkata, Chennai or Bangalore for $1 billion. You arent sure if the guy will keep the word wrt contractual oblogations , but will it stop you from buying that weapon , knowing that IF it worked you could potentially be saving millions of lives and trillions of dollars in property. Make your pick. !

[CC1981]

And FYI, India is the ONLY country that the US offered to sell the Phalcon AWACS systems to, not anybody else. They also seem willing to part with Arrow anti-missile tech.

Its called 'fishing' - you throw the bait and get the fish hooked. We are the fish, America is the fisherman, the bait is the Phalcon and the hook is that control of maintainance, upgrading & production rests completely in US hands. I cannot make it any more 'clearer' than this.

If we have them , it will change the face of our entire military. There will be quantum jump in our military might in S.Asia.

Err...no. In the modern world, there is only one asset that can change the face of the military on its own : A Nimitz class Aircraft-carrier. It will be a big help- but only if we know how to fix it and build it on our own.

[Ram]

BTW, If I am not mistaken Phalcon AWACS systems was offered by Israel , not USA. And USA raised objection to the sale. Mujahideen Afghanistan was an ally of USA during the 80's when US was trying to overturn USSR backed Najibullah government.

Phalcon AWACS is joint US-Israeli project. Israel wouldnt dare sell it to anyone without US consent. Yea, The Mujahideen were with US , never the govt. Its not like you should be complaning if the US ditched the terrorists !

[CC1981]

I Consider this situation KR, Somebody walks upto and says he is willing to sell you technology that stop pakistani nuclear missiles from landing Mumbai, Kolkata, Chennai or Bangalore for $1 billion. You arent sure if the guy will keep the word wrt contractual oblogations , but will it stop you from buying that weapon , knowing that IF it worked you could potentially be saving millions of lives and trillions of dollars in property. Make your pick. !

I will tell him to go f*ck himself. Then i will proceed to buy two from the other guy for 300 million, pay 400 million for the full technology and come home with a harwarde that *I* can build anytime i want, however many i want and rig it whichever way i like. Sure, this 300-buck thing may be slightly worse in capability- but economy of numbers and full propriety of the technology (and its contribution to my strategy for war) wins out overwhelmingly.

[kumble_rocks]

Phalcon AWACS is joint US-Israeli project. Israel wouldnt dare sell it to anyone without US consent. Yea, The Mujahideen were with US , never the govt. Its not like you should be complaning if the US ditched the terrorists !

I am gonna sleep now man , Will take this up tomorrow. Good night to all.

[CC1981]

The Mujahideen were with US , never the govt.

So if tomorrow the CIA comes into India and blows stuff up, its nothing to do with the US government..right ? :hysterical:

[kumble_rocks]

Not your stance ... I was refering to your logic on why we plumped for Socialism based on East India Co ... likewise based on a even more brutal history involving ummah we should have parted company with them and dealt with pak/bd from day one .... Since obviously we chose to ignore that bit of history how do you claim that the other part (Capitalism' date=' east india) was based on history ?[/quote'] I will take this up tomorrow. Also, the thread I had created about Mughals and Rajputs before going to India Good Night.

[Ram]

Its called 'fishing' - you throw the bait and get the fish hooked. We are the fish, America is the fisherman, the bait is the Phalcon and the hook is that control of maintainance, upgrading & production rests completely in US hands. I cannot make it any more 'clearer' than this.

And i cannot make it clearer to you that This is not a some tank or figher jet for you to upgrade or produce later. This is JUST one aircraft. AND please get this straight ** NOBODY can build an AWACS in 6 weeks. ** If we lose an AWACS , thats it. Its over. There is no way we can build another one for atleast a year, doesnt matter if we have the tech or not

Err...no. In the modern world, there is only one asset that can change the face of the military on its own : A Nimitz class Aircraft-carrier. It will be a big help- but only if we know how to fix it and build it on our own.

You call an aircraft-carrier as the single most influential war-tool ? Amazing ! If thats the reason , then why are the americans investing $50 billion to build a anti-missile system ! If there is one weapon that can change the way wars are fought and politics is done in the world , its an anti-missile system. The Russians are desperate US doesnt build one. Once US has the capability to stop Russian nuclear missiles ,that would signal the start of a new world order . If we have anti-missle system, S.Asia and its politics would look unrecognisably different, trust me !

[Ram]

I will tell him to go f*ck himself. Then i will proceed to buy two from the other guy for 300 million' date=' pay 400 million for the full technology and come home with a harwarde that *I* can build anytime i want, however many i want and rig it whichever way i like. Sure, this 300-buck thing may be slightly worse in capability- but economy of numbers and full propriety of the technology (and its contribution to my strategy for war) wins out overwhelmingly.[/quote']' I really dunno what to say beyond this. This isnt a numbers game , which you make it out to be. Nobody else have the technology for us to buy from them. You dont seem to realize that.

[CC1981]

** NOBODY can build an AWACS in 6 weeks.

You do not understand the term ' war-time production' then. That is the critical aspect of the war in a war that'd involve India and China on a massive scale. What you build in a year today will be built in atleast 1/20th the time if its top priority and its war-production period. That really is a fact

You call an aircraft as the single most influential war-tool ? Amazing !

A Nimitz class aircraft carrier is the single most influential war-tool.

If thats the reason , then why are the americans investing $50 billion to build a anti-missile system !

Because America already *HAS* Nimitz class carriers- the only one to have it and they do not have missiles good enough to intercept or counter russian missiles- such as ssn-sunburn or brahmos. That is why they are focussing on that sector for now. Every country's needs and focus are different- ours is different too and so all these 'stats' mean nothing- its all about what we NEED- and what we need is tech to stand up to China. Not things we cant fix,build,maintain or upgrade.

[CC1981]

' I really dunno what to say beyond this. This isnt a numbers game , which you make it out to be. Nobody else have the technology for us to buy from them. You dont seem to realize that.

False. AWACS is not an america-only tech. as i said. And AWACS is pretty good in rest of the world too. My fundamental perspective is based on this fact : We dont need anything America is offering us because we wont be allowed to build it on our own. Ever. The stuff we really need and only America has ( F-22s), America wont part with. Stuff it willpart with, it wont part with fully. While others will give us stuff that WE can control & understand fully. Russia has AWACS, so does France, UK, Italy and Israel. All developed it on their own too. We are developing our own AWACS in 3 years too...so chill !

[Ram]

You do not understand the term ' war-time production' then. That is the critical aspect of the war in a war that'd involve India and China on a massive scale. What you build in a year today will be built in atleast 1/20th the time if its top priority and its war-production period. That really is a fact

OjK , can you build a nimitz class aircraft carrier in six weeks ? If the answe is yes , then i would say - Yea , we can build an AWACS in 6 weeks.

A Nimitz class aircraft carrier is the single most influential war-tool.

totally wrong ! An anti-missile system is the most single influential war tool.

Because America already *HAS* Nimitz class carriers- the only one to have it and they do not have missiles good enough to intercept or counter russian missiles- such as ssn-sunburn or brahmos. That is why they are focussing on that sector for now. Every country's needs and focus are different- ours is different too and so all these 'stats' mean nothing- its all about what we NEED- and what we need is tech to stand up to China. Not things we cant fix,build,maintain or upgrade.

American isnt focussing on it coz they have all the others. They know that having an effective anti-missile systems will change the destiny of this planet.

[CC1981]

OjK , can you build a nimitz class aircraft carrier in six weeks ? If the answe is yes , then i would say - Yea , we can build an AWACS in 6 weeks.

Err..Nimitz class AC has everything an AWACS unit has, it is a zillion times bigger, has a zillion times more things and is basically your mobile base. Do you realize that apart from US military bases and US territorry, the nimitz class AC is the ONLY other thing the US officially considers a capital asset ? Ie, you blow up a nimitz class AC, its automatic declaration of war on you. No other US hardware has that kind of importance to the US ! And in war-production mode,US can churn out a Nimitz class AC in six months- bear in mind, pre-war production level it takes 5 yrs to build.

totally wrong ! An anti-missile system is the most single influential war tool.

In theory. In practice it isnt. An anti-missile system is at best, a wonky technology in its current 'hit a missile with another missile' thinking. Lets not go into realms of sci-fi and what 'could be' if we had laser platforms and stuff. On what we have today, nothing touches a nimitz class carrier for being the single-most decisive war machine in action.

American isnt focussing on it coz they have all the others. They know that having an effective anti-missile systems will change the destiny of this planet.

Yes. It will change the destiny of the planet by America militarily controlling the whole planet. Dont forget the MAIN reason America is going for this anti-missile shield under the stupid cover story of 'iran and rouge states' and Putin is very rightly annoyed at this : NOTHING is preventing the Americans from taking their 'anti-missile- missiles' and launching them as first strike weapons to ground based targets ! You should look up how unsucessful Americans were in intercepting scuds in Gulf-War-I to realize how much smokescreen is there in this 'anti-missile defence shield' cr@p. And keep in mind, scuds were blind missiles, not deigned to hit anything with precision. If the US failed to intercept scuds 16 years ago, they arnt going to intercept any missile that China will lob at them- or us if we used the same stuff Americans use. The bottomline is, hitting a missile with another missile is a ridiculously low-probability idea in reality. No one will launch one missile at you- if they launch, its gonna be a barrage- a barrage of stuff flying at mach 6+, less than 2 metres wide..your entire country's radar-civillian and military- dont have enough power and precision to independently track a few hundred missiles of that size and guide another missile to hit it. Ofcourse, if the missile you are trying to shoot down is a russian built one, it will have the proximity alert, wait till the approaching 'american shoot-down missile' is close enough and execute a 'violent manuever' - ie, sudden change in trajectory for a short period. Ie, giving it the slip. good freaking luck turning your missile around and giving this elusive missile further chase. Anti-missile defence shield is just googledegook for putting missiles that they can point at you close to your borders.

[Ram]

Err..Nimitz class AC has everything an AWACS unit has, it is a zillion times bigger, has a zillion times more things and is basically your mobile base. Do you realize that apart from US military bases and US territorry, the nimitz class AC is the ONLY other thing the US officially considers a capital asset ? Ie, you blow up a nimitz class AC, its automatic declaration of war on you. No other US hardware has that kind of importance to the US ! And in war-production mode,US can churn out a Nimitz class AC in six months- bear in mind, pre-war production level it takes 5 yrs to build.

I dont buy your statement that an aircraft carrier can be built in 6 months, even during war-time. Prove it to me.

In theory. In practice it isnt. An anti-missile system is at best, a wonky technology in its current 'hit a missile with another missile' thinking. Lets not go into realms of sci-fi and what 'could be' if we had laser platforms and stuff. On what we have today, nothing touches a nimitz class carrier for being the single-most decisive war machine in action.

Anti-missile systems work , thats why people are willing to risk big bucks in it. And this no fancy laser sci-fi stuff.

Yes. It will change the destiny of the planet by America militarily controlling the whole planet. Dont forget the MAIN reason America is going for this anti-missile shield under the stupid cover story of 'iran and rouge states' and Putin is very rightly annoyed at this : NOTHING is preventing the Americans from taking their 'anti-missile- missiles' and launching them as first strike weapons to ground based targets !

Now that you youself have acknowledged the difference an anti-missile system makes to the americans , do you also realize the difference it could make to India ? An India with an anti-mssile system could actually mean - no more Indians to die in a war .

You should look up how unsucessful Americans were in intercepting scuds in Gulf-War-I to realize how much smokescreen is there in this 'anti-missile defence shield' cr@p. And keep in mind, scuds were blind missiles, not deigned to hit anything with precision. If the US failed to intercept scuds 16 years ago, they arnt going to intercept any missile that China will lob at them- or us if we used the same stuff Americans use.

The Patriot missile system that you are talking about is completely diferent to Nationel missile defence i am referring to. And come to think of it , if the Russians knew their missiles would get past this defence , then why would they make such a big fuss of it ?

[CC1981]

I dont buy your statement that an aircraft carrier can be built in 6 months, even during war-time. Prove it to me.

It is a fact that in the last war where military heavyweights clashed in full war, production time was dropped by 20-25 times in 'high priority war production' mode. This last happened in WWII- if in WWII, nations could build stuff 20 times faster in war-production mode, they can do so today too. What part of 'war production mode' dont you understand ? In war production mode, ALL your secondary projects are halted on a NATIONAL scale- your steel mill produces steel on national priority,not market priority. So does your research teams, construction yards etc etc. In normal peace-time mode, the entire industrial base isnt focussed on churning out war goods at the fastest possible pace !

Now that you youself have acknowledged the difference an anti-missile system makes to the americans , do you also realize the difference it could make to India ? An India with an anti-mssile system could actually mean - no more Indians to die in a war .

Err no- it is no different than putting some mobile Agni-IIIs deployed around our border with China-Pakistan and getting radars that can guide missiles to an airbone target. US interest in anti-missile shield isnt because its an anti-missile shield, its because it can put missiles that will target your ground structures under that excuse. That is its excuse to put missiles in Eastern Europe. Your idea that 'no more indians die in war' if we bought US anti-missile defence shield stuff is just ludicrous really.

The Patriot missile system that you are talking about is completely diferent to Nationel missile defence i am referring to.

And the Russian missiles that it will be up against today are a zillion times better than scuds they built in the 1950s ! America has nothing that will stop an SSN-sunburn or Brahmos. It also has nothing that will stop a barrage of ICBMS. If Russia launches its 15,000 + arsenal of nuclear ICMBS, America will not be able to prevent itself from turning into a radioactive wasteland. Sure,it will turn Russia into a radioactive wasteland too- but that is mutually assured destruction, not a missile defence strategy. Any country that launches several thousand ICBS at US will be able to bomb the hell out of US and there is nothing that US can do to prevent it today or in the foreseeable future.

Anti-missile systems work , thats why people are willing to risk big bucks in it. And this no fancy laser sci-fi stuff.

If 1980s built US missiles couldnt deal with 1950s built scuds, todays US missiles arnt gonna be able to deal with today's russian missiles. That is a simple fact. People are willing to put big bucks in it but only when it will work as an anti-missile system. To america its an excuse to put missiles on other people's soil.

[CC1981]

And come to think of it , if the Russians knew their missiles would get past this defence , then why would they make such a big fuss of it ?

Its all about strategic advantage- if i put missiles 200 miles from your border, you have far more to worry about than if i put the missile 5000 km away. A few hrs extra in warning wont be enough to stop the missile but its better than a five-minute warning because atleast you can emergency-evacuate critical personnel/equiment that can be carried. That is why Russia is so damn angry- this is no different than the cuban-missile crisis scenario.

[Ram]

It is a fact that in the last war where military heavyweights clashed in full war, production time was dropped by 20-25 times in 'high priority war production' mode. This last happened in WWII- if in WWII, nations could build stuff 20 times faster in war-production mode, they can do so today too. What part of 'war production mode' dont you understand ? In war production mode, ALL your secondary projects are halted on a NATIONAL scale- your steel mill produces steel on national priority,not market priority. So does your research teams, construction yards etc etc. In normal peace-time mode, the entire industrial base isnt focussed on churning out war goods at the fastest possible pace !

The steel mill can churn out as much steel as it can , but the facililty that was specifically built to construct an air-craft can put these things together only at a given pace. There is no way in this planet an air-craft can be built in 6 months. And even if it is possible , what is the point in trying to build an aircraft in 6 months , when the war would be over in 2-3 months ?

Err no- it is no different than putting some mobile Agni-IIIs deployed around our border with China-Pakistan and getting radars that can guide missiles to an airbone target.

hahahaha ! Its as simple as that isnt it ? just put an Agni-3 , stack some radars next to it , and lo behold ! we have anti-missile system !

US interest in anti-missile shield isnt because its an anti-missile shield, its because it can put missiles that will target your ground structures under that excuse. That is its excuse to put missiles in Eastern Europe.

Target your ground structures ? What do you mean ? US's ICBM could do that right from american territory , who/what can stop them ?

Your idea that 'no more indians die in war' if we bought US anti-missile defence shield stuff is just ludicrous really.

If you consider that ludicrous ,it obviously means you dont realize the geo-politic and strategic shift these weapons cause to a nation.

And the Russian missiles that it will be up against today are a zillion times better than scuds they built in the 1950s ! America has nothing that will stop an SSN-sunburn or Brahmos. It also has nothing that will stop a barrage of ICBMS. If Russia launches its 15,000 + arsenal of nuclear ICMBS, America will not be able to prevent itself from turning into a radioactive wasteland. Sure,it will turn Russia into a radioactive wasteland too- but that is mutually assured destruction, not a missile defence strategy. Any country that launches several thousand ICBS at US will be able to bomb the hell out of US and there is nothing that US can do to prevent it today or in the foreseeable future.

We arent going to fight a war with the Russians, for us to handle 15,000 icbms... all at once. Pak at the most has 15-20 nuclear tipped missiles. Again , if the Russians are so confident that their missiles wil get past the American defence, then why do they seem to be bothered so much by it ? There goes your argument !