India master-minded judiciary and laal mosque crisis: pakistan

[CC1981]

The CIA supported the jihadists in Afghanistan. The ISI supported the Kashmir terrorists. RAW helped Baloch guys.

As far as i am concerned, the last one is far less substantial in its basis than the first two. As i said, RAW is a joke of an organization- it fails to predict mass scale invasion, it fails to predict obvious war strategies. I do not believe RAW is anywhere near capable enough to take care of Indian issues, let alone poke its nose outside of India.

Can you come up with anything to counter this ?

If there is one thing i've learnt from a few army guys i know ( i happen to know someone here who was special ops in USAF in vietnam), it is this : If an intelligence service personnel is saying something to the press, it is bullsh!t. The bigger the status of the (ex) personnel, bigger the bullsh!t is. Not only does that make sense, that viewpoint is endorsed by almost every single ex-military personnel i know.

[Ram]

As far as i am concerned, the last one is far less substantial in its basis than the first two. As i said, RAW is a joke of an organization- it fails to predict mass scale invasion, it fails to predict obvious war strategies. I do not believe RAW is anywhere near capable enough to take care of Indian issues, let alone poke its nose outside of India.

As i told you earlier , intelligence failures occur. Its common everywhere. To hold the kargil mishap as the main reason to ridicule RAW isnt fair. And why in the hell do you think RAW couldnt be active in Pak. If the ISI , backed my a smaller budget , could be so active in a country in India , then why not RAW be active , backed by a smaller budget , not be able to be active in a country as small as pakistan. I say this before , and i say it again - You are denying the obvious and hence losing credibility.

If there is one thing i've learnt from a few army guys i know ( i happen to know someone here who was special ops in USAF in vietnam), it is this : If an intelligence service personnel is saying something to the press, it is bullsh!t. The bigger the status of the (ex) personnel, bigger the bullsh!t is. Not only does that make sense, that viewpoint is endorsed by almost every single ex-military personnel i know.

And why is that all statements by former intelligence personnel are crap ? Read this article if you have the time.. RAW: An Instrument of Indian Power Isha Khan - 8/6/2006 The Research and Analysis Wing (RAW), created in 1968, has assumed a significant status in the formulation of India's domestic and foreign policies, particularly the later. Working directly under the Prime Minister, it has over the years become and effective instrument of India's national power. In consonance with Kautilya's precepts, RAW's espionage doctrine is based on the principle of waging a continuous series of battles of intrigues and secret wars. RAW, ever since its creation, has always been a vital, though unobtrusive, actor in Indian policy-making apparatus. But it is the massive international dimensions of RAW operations that merit a closer examination. To the credit of this organization, it has in very short span of time mastered the art of spy warfare. Credit must go to Indira Gandhi who in the late 1970s gave it a changed and much more dynamic role. To suit her much publicized Indira Doctrine, (actually India Doctrine) Mrs. Gandhi specifically asked RAW to create a powerful organ within the organization which could undertake covert operations in neighboring countries. It is this capability that makes RAW a more fearsome agency than its superior KGB, CIA, MI-6, BND and the Mossad. Its internal role is confined only in monitoring events having bearing on the external threat. RAW's boss works directly under the Prime Minister. An Additional Secretary to the Government of India, under the Director RAW, is responsible for the Office of Special Operations (OSO), intelligence collected from different countries, internal security (under the Director General of Security), the electronic/technical section and general administration. The Additional Secretary as well as the Director General of Security is also under the Director of RAW. DG Security has two important sections: the Aviation Research Center (ARC) and the Special Services Bureau (SSB). The joint Director has specified desks with different regional divisions/areas (countries): Area one. Pakistan: Area two, China and South East Asia: Area three, the Middle East and Africa: and Area four, other countries. Aviation Research Center (ARC) is responsible for interception, monitoring and jamming of target country's communication systems. It has the most sophisticated electronic equipment and also a substantial number of aircraft equipped with state-of- the art eavesdropping devices. ARC was strengthened in mid-1987 by the addition of three new aircraft, the Gulf Stream-3. These aircraft can reportedly fly at an altitude of 52,000 ft and has an operating range of 5000 kms. ARC also controls a number of radar stations located close to India's borders. Its aircraft also carry out oblique reconnaissance, along the border with Bangladesh, China, Nepal and Pakistan. RAW having been given a virtual carte blanche to conduct destabilization operations in neighboring countries inimical to India to seriously undertook restructuring of its organization accordingly. RAW was given a list of seven countries (Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nepal, Sikkim, Bhutan, Pakistan and Maldives) whom India considered its principal regional protagonists. It very soon systematically and brilliantly crafted covert operations in all these countries to coerce, destabilize and subvert them in consonance with the foreign policy objectives of the Indian Government. RAW's operations against the regional countries were conducted with great professional skill and expertise. Central to the operations was the establishment of a huge network inside the target countries. It used and targeted political dissent, ethnic divisions, economic backwardness and criminal elements within these states to foment subversion, terrorism and sabotage. Having thus created the conducive environments, RAW stage-managed future events in these countries in such a way that military intervention appears a natural concomitant of the events. In most cases, RAW's hand remained hidden, but more often that not target countries soon began unearthing those "hidden hand". A brief expose of RAW's operations in neighboring countries would reveal the full expanse of its regional ambitions to suit India Doctrine (Open Secrets. India's Intelligence Unveiled by M K Dhar. Manas Publications, New Delhi, 2005). ..... .... .... Pakistan Pakistan's size, strength and potential have always overawed the Indians. It, therefore, always considers her main opponent in her expansionist doctrine. India's animosity towards Pakistan is psychologically and ideologically deep-rooted and unassailable. India's war with Pakistan in 1965 over Kashmir and in 1971 which resulted in the dismemberment of Pakistan and creation of Bangladesh are just two examples. Raw considers Sindh as Pakistan's soft under-belly. It has, therefore, made it the prime target for sabotage and subversion. RAW has enrolled and extensive network of agents and anti-government elements, and is convinced that with a little push restless Sindh will revolt. Taking fullest advantage of the agitation in Sindh in 1983 and the ethnic riots, which have continued till today, RAW has deeply penetrated and cultivated dissidents and secessionists, thereby creating hard-liners unlikely to allow peace to return to Sindh. Raw is also involved similarly in Balochistan. RAW is also being blamed for confusing the ground situation is Kashmir so as to keep the world attention away from the gross human rights violations by India in India occupied Kashmir. ISI being almost 20 years older than RAW and having acquired much higher standard of efficiency in its functioning , has become the prime target of RAW's designs, ISI is considered to be a stumbling block in RAW's operations, and has, therefore, been made a target of all kinds of massive misinformation and propaganda campaign. The tirade against ISI continues unabated. The idea is to keep ISI on the defensive by fictionalising and alleging its hand is supporting Kashmiri Mujahideen and Sikhs in Punjab. RAW'S fixation against ISI has taken the shape of ISI-phobia, as in India everyone traces down the origin of all happenings and shortcomings to the ISI . Be it an abduction at Banglaore or a student's kidnapping at Cochin, be it a bank robbery at Calcutta or a financial scandal in Bombay, be it a bomb blast at Bombay or Bangladesh, they find an ISI hand in it (RAW :GLOBAL AND REGIONAL AMBITIONS" Edited by Rashid Ahmad Khan and Muhammad Saleem, Published by Islamabad Policy Research Institute, Asia Printers, slamabad, 2005). RAW over the years has admirably fulfilled its tasks of destabilising target states through unbridled export of terrorism. The India Doctrine spelt out a difficult and onerous role for RAW. It goes to its credit that it has accomplished its assigned objectives due to the endemic weakness in the state apparatus of those nations and failure of their leaders. http://globalpolitician.com/articledes.asp?ID=2022&cid=6&sid=20

[CC1981]

And why is that all statements by former intelligence personnel are crap ?

Because if they *ever* say anything that is actually true, or are about to say something that is actually true, they get Litvinenko-ed. Intelligence agencies hunt down their rogue agents with a vengeance- so its safe to say that whatever these head-honchos are telling you is just soundbyte BS.

To hold the kargil mishap as the main reason to ridicule RAW isnt fair.

Thats one of MANY mishaps that snuck right under RAW's noses. If i were to chose between RAW and Vancouver Police, i'd chose the latter in their competency.

If the ISI , backed my a smaller budget , could be so active in a country in India , then why not RAW be active , backed by a smaller budget , not be able to be active in a country as small as pakistan.

A security organisation focusses on external meddling only when its own house is in order- since the primary mandate of ALL intelligence agencies is intelligence-gathering at home. And securing Pakistan is a thousand times easier job than securing India. So i can believe ISI involved in India- their home mandate requires far less effort & resources. But not for RAW.

and i say it again - You are denying the obvious and hence losing credibility.

if thats what you wanna beleive, go ahead. I just think it is pretty dumb to think these internet websites know what security services are up to and the ex-servicemen talking to the press are doing anything more than making smoke & spreading misinformation. If the ex-head of RAW leaked something that was actually true, you can bet your bottom dollar that he'd be dead within 24 hours of the interview. That is how intelligence service works. Actually, army personnel ( regular grunts) are wary of talking about mission duty because it is classified. Security services have *FAR* higher standards for personal discretion. I say again- what you are reading is nothing more than misdirection soundbytes. FAS wants you to think they know wtf they are talking about because your interest generates $$ for them. Thats the bottomline. If there is one sure-fire way to get yourself killed in 24 hours, it is to leak current missions of a security service you are affiliated with- even if it is a pretty mundane leak. If you dont wanna take my word for it, perhaps if one day you come to Vancouver, i can introduce you to my friend Larry- former special Ops in USAF. He'd tell you in no uncertain terms how much bullshyte is propagated by a few ex-intelligence men for the sake of making money. And the ones who really do give out/try to give out factual information of the secret service, end up like Alexander Litvinenko.

[Guest dada_rocks]

Bhaihaven't we based a whole 30 page long daitribe against israel because certain former MOSAD agent worte a book.. suddenly u don't find former agents account convincing.. I say little consistency goes a long way.... We had a full-fledged separatst movemet support wing on in RAW till Jantaa party govt came and vajpayee abolished it. This is where I don't like hopeless peace romantics who go out of their way to seal peace and get bitten in ar$e. I say if RAw is fannign separatism in baluchistan more power to them but to say RAw controls whole pakistani leadership of opposition is giving them too much credit. TO say that RAW controls tsliban element in pakistan is yet another level fo over-exaggeration.

[theguyinallblue]

i heard Musht telling Dr. Roy in an interview to NDTV... "lets be honest..secret services are not holy organizations...they do dirty jobs..be it our ISI or your RAW....dono me se koi bhi doodh ka dhula nahi hai"

[CC1981]

Bhaihaven't we based a whole 30 page long daitribe against israel because certain former MOSAD agent worte a book.. suddenly u don't find former agents account convincing..

Why do you make baseless allegations and spread misinformation ? All the facts i've mentioned about Israel is not some conspiracy theory from some ex-Mossad or CIA or KGB agents, its from official government sources & independent NGO reporting, all of whom have impeccable record. That Menachim Begin blew up a civillian hotel & killed innocent civillians in cold blood isnt from some MOSSAD story, it is officially documented by the British government & its civil service. That Menachim Begin poisoned water wells that killed hundreds of arab civillians isnt form some conspiracy theory book, it is from official British & French sources. Don't try to spread your bakwaas on this topic- trust me, you know SQUAT about Israel-Palestine and most of what you've read is pro-Israeli & pro-hinduvta, anti-muslim propaganda.

[CC1981]

We had a full-fledged separatst movemet support wing on in RAW till Jantaa party govt came and vajpayee abolished it.

That is what you THINK, not what you know. Learn to differentiate between fact & opinion, o, wannabe-professor/lab-assistant. As i said, you, me, Sriram, tera mamu,mera mamu- nobody has any effin clue what RAW or ISI or CIA or KGB are up to, unless they are directly involved. And even if they are, they will not tell you. However, they know how nosy family gets, so they make up some sh!t to tell you just to shut you up and get you off their back. Some take it further and make up some sh!t, tell it to the media & make money. The intelligence service doesn't mind, because the guy is feeding the media bullshyte anyways and so the media attention is not towards what the secret service's actual agendas are. They don't care what the public thinks of them or what the opinion is of them- so long as their actual missions arnt leaked and they arnt held up by the direct, factual & material evidence. Their mandate is not from the public, they are not answerable to the public and they have only one thing to do: their jobs. And if any guy of theirs, current or 'retired', is dumb enough to open his yap on any issue that *is* actually a current-ongoing mission of the secret service, they make sure you end up like Alexander Litvinenko- ie, dead. Every intelligence agency has done this too. It is dumb to think you know what the secret service is up to by reading some papers or some proaganda BS. I know you are factually challenged, but this is just flights of fancy to think you know what RAW or CIA or ISI is up to.