India master-minded judiciary and laal mosque crisis: pakistan

[Guest dada_rocks]

http://www.ibnlive.com/news/pak-claims-indian-link-to-mosque-judiciary-crises/45327-2.html Islamabad: Pakistan has claimed links between the “activities†of Indian diplomats stationed in Islamabad and in neighbouring Afghanistan to its own crises triggered by the suspension of its top judge and the anti-militant operations at Lal Masjid. Quoting unnamed official sources, sections of Pakistani media on Friday said the government claims to have 'rock-hard' proof of India’s link to the mosque and the judicial crises. Pakistani newspaper The Nation quoted a Pakistani official as claiming that Pakistani security agencies had “found a passport of Indian origin from Lal Masjid after completion of the operation.†The Nation also quoted an unnamed official as claiming that "the investigators have gathered 'rock-hard' proof about involvement of the neighbouring country in the anti-Army attacks in Pakistan.†The official also "pointed (a) finger" at India for the killing of Chinese nationals. The official told the newspaper that the abduction of Chinese nationals by Lal Masjid clerics "further establish the doubts that secret agents of the enemy state have penetrated the jihadi outfits." The official said India was also involved "in the uprising of nationalist parties in Balochistan". "The recent findings have put the present regime in a total fix and even jeopardised the fate of (the) ongoing composite dialogue process," the official told The Nation. Another Pakistani newspaper, The News, quoted unnamed officials to suggest that "Indian diplomats have suddenly become more active and started meeting different government officials, politicians and lawyers secretly after March 9.†"Two Indian embassy diplomats were seen hobnobbing with some senior officials (not judges) of the Supreme Court on June 14 this year. Sources said these diplomats have played a key role in blowing the whole judicial issue out of proportion," the officials said about Indian diplomats in Afghanistan. The newspaper repeated the allegation about Indian diplomats being behind the kidnappings and killings of the Chinese, quoting unnamed official sources. "Use of mines and intensive firing with modern weapons in Tuesday's and Wednesday's attacks on security forces have proved the involvement of this intelligence agency in the attacks," the officials told The News. The sources specifically told The News that Indian "diplomats have started a proper campaign against the Pakistan Army." They also blamed India for the recent book against the Army, written by Ayesha Siddiqa. According to the newspaper, the officials "claimed that Dr Ayesha had close relations with a lady diplomat of Indian embassy" and that her "personal car is still present in the house of said lady diplomat in Islamabad. Even Ayesha's compartment in London was also provided by this diplomat." "We are facing many problems at home front while these Indian missions (in Europe and the US) are trying to convince the Western people that our nuclear assets could go in the hands of 'extremists' any time," the officials claim. According to The News, the sources alleged that Indians were trying to target Pakistan strategic defence assets. Islamabad's charge that Indian diplomats stationed in Kabul and four consulates — Mazaar-e-Sharif, Kandahar, Jalalabad and Herat — were fomenting trouble in Pakistani territory is not new. Asked about Pakistan's allegations at a news conference in Islamabad during his last visit earlier this year, Afghanistan President Hamid Karzai had categorically said that his government would not allow any such activity.

[Ram]

I wouldnt be surprised if India actually did this. The RAW isnt exactly the most well behaved organization either.

[varun]

lol, they're giving us too much credit.

[Gaurav]

Would be a start if true. I doubt RAW has that much reach these days.

[Ram]

Would be a start if true. I doubt RAW has that much reach these days.

You would be surprised to know that truth.

[CC1981]

Sorry, doesn't compute. If RAW is involved, it'd make far more sense they'd be involved in the whole Balochistan freedom stuff ( i don't think RAW is anywhere good enough to be involved btw, just saying that if they were, it'd be the most likely place). But to support a bunch of fundie muslims who are the exact same type that blow up people in India over 100 times every year ? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever....its like saying India is helping the parties sympathetic to LeT that blows stuff up in India.

[Ram]

Sorry, doesn't compute. If RAW is involved, it'd make far more sense they'd be involved in the whole Balochistan freedom stuff ( i don't think RAW is anywhere good enough to be involved btw, just saying that if they were, it'd be the most likely place). But to support a bunch of fundie muslims who are the exact same type that blow up people in India over 100 times every year ? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever....its like saying India is helping the parties sympathetic to LeT that blows stuff up in India.

First the Fact -- It is COMMON knowledge that the Balochistan freedom movement got/still gets active support from RAW. If you are going to deny this , then you are failing to see the obvious. Read this article if you dont believe me-- http://www.fas.org/irp/world/india/raw/index.html FAS is an independent organization that publishes bulletins on world security. And your idea that supporting the Baloch freedom fighters is akin to arming LeT is doesnt make logic either. Yes , both are muslim fundamentalists , but the similarity ends there. The Baloch warlords would never do the bidding of the pakistani govt and fight a proxy was against India. For years , they have been in a bloody battle with the pak govt for a free baloch state.

[CC1981]

First the Fact -- It is COMMON knowledge that the Balochistan freedom movement got/still gets active support from RAW. If you are going to deny this , then you are failing to see the obvious. Read this article if you dont believe me-- http://www.fas.org/irp/world/india/raw/index.html FAS is an independent organization that publishes bulletins on world security.

I got an even bigger, commoner and saner fact for you : When it comes to all these intelligence agencies such as RAW, NSA, Mi-6, KGB, etc. and their agendas, it is foolish to think you or I or even FAS has any idea of wtf they are talking about. The biggest reason i don't think RAW is involved in Balochistan is because RAW is too incompetent. It couldnt predict the kargil incident or have any clue about it. It had critical failures in 1971, in 1989, with ULFA, etc etc. Basically, RAW isnt good enough to take care of their own prime objective ( which is intelligence gathering in India), let alone poke its nose in others' affairs.

And your idea that supporting the Baloch freedom fighters is akin to arming LeT is doesnt make logic either.

I didnt say that- read it again. I equated LeT with the fundies that got killed in the Lal-Masjid incident.

[Ram]

I got an even bigger' date=' commoner and saner [b'] fact for you : When it comes to all these intelligence agencies such as RAW, NSA, Mi-6, KGB, etc. and their agendas, it is foolish to think you or I or even FAS has any idea of wtf they are talking about.

FAS is run by former top-guns of the US intelligence and its board consists of some of the world's most distinguished security experts and you say you dont know "WTF they are talking about it" Whose word am i supposed to take ? yours or FAS ? I think i would plump in for the latter. No disrespect to you , but they know MUCH MORE than you, period.

The biggest reason i don't think RAW is involved in Balochistan is because RAW is too incompetent. It couldnt predict the kargil incident or have any clue about it. It had critical failures in 1971, in 1989, with ULFA, etc etc. Basically, RAW isnt good enough to take care of their own prime objective ( which is intelligence gathering in India), let alone poke its nose in others' affairs.

RAW's role in the Baloch freedom struggle has been acknowledged by the Baloch leaders themselves. Dont know if we cant get any more damming proof. And yes, it failed to see Kargil , but that doesnt make in totally incompetent. Intelligence failures are common. The CIA didnt 9/11 or the Indian nuclear tests. So , does that make the CIA crap too ?

I didnt say that- read it again. I equated LeT with the fundies that got killed in the Lal-Masjid incident.

"But to support a bunch of fundie muslims who are the exact same type that blow up people in India over 100 times every year ? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever...." This was your post. You clearly seem to suggest as though supporting the Baloch terrorists is like supporting the Jehadists who carry out attacks in India. I have clearly said why that isnt the case. Correct me if i had gone wrong the interpretation of your statement.

[CC1981]

Whose word am i supposed to take ? yours or FAS ? I think i would plump in for the latter. No disrespect to you , but they know MUCH MORE than you, period.

I am not saying that i know more than them- they do know much much more than me. What i am saying is they pretend to know far more than they do. Basically, a gimmick to keep public interested & make money. If you took a count of how many projections FAS makes and it comes true, i'd bet it wouldnt be more than 5-10 % of the time, which is about what it should be for guesswork on very very limited information.

RAW's role in the Baloch freedom struggle has been acknowledged by the Baloch leaders themselves. Dont know if we cant get any more damming proof.

Gee. A Pakistani is gonna say that India is helping it. Right-o.. i was so not expecting that. Okay, i don't wanna get into this discussion with you- all i will say is this : Either read Machiavelli or Arthashastra. Those two books are the templates on governance by most empires/kingdoms/countries in the last 2000 years. Once you read that, you'd find how silly it is to think that organisations like FAS or some public mouthpiece knows what its talking about when it comes to secret service. But if you think that FAS should be a reliable source ( or any such website/circular) on the topic of secret service, be my guest. Thats more utopian than i wanna deal with.

This was your post. You clearly seem to suggest as though supporting the Baloch terrorists is like supporting the Jehadists who carry out attacks in India.

I see. I apologize for the confusion- but my post was meant to be read as a whole- my opening line ( doesnt compute) is stating my doubt of the original piece- which is Lal Masjid dudes were helped by India. The But statement i assumed would be clear enough ( clearly, not), to show the break in previous thought ( on the Balochi comment). I guess the statement should read : " But to support a bunch of fundie muslims(inside the mosque) who are the exact same type that blow up people in India over 100 times every year ? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever...."

[Guest dada_rocks]

So u guys are suggesting RAW controls their whole opposition party (PPP, ML, MMA) their talibani element ..:giggle:

[varun]

But I can see why such propaganda would be useful for Pak even if the news isn't true. As is the case with any country that is divided, all it takes is a vision of a common external enemy to unity the country against it. It's a bit like burying your problems in the sand for a bit though, and these divisory issues will resurface until they face and address them.

[Ram]

I am not saying that i know more than them- they do know much much more than me. What i am saying is they pretend to know far more than they do. Basically' date=' a gimmick to keep public interested & make money. If you took a count of how many projections FAS makes and it comes true, i'd bet it wouldnt be more than 5-10 % of the time, which is about what it should be for guesswork on very very limited information.[/quote'] FAS isnt making any predictions of what is going to happen in the future. They have documented a well-known fact. So " its all guesswork , so its wrong" is doesnt apply to this situation.

Gee. A Pakistani is gonna say that India is helping it. Right-o.. i was so not expecting that.

Obviously the Baloch didnt come on national TV during prime time and make an proclamation. But they have acknowledged the support they got from RAW in many interviews with independent western journalists.

Okay, i don't wanna get into this discussion with you- all i will say is this : Either read Machiavelli or Arthashastra. Those two books are the templates on governance by most empires/kingdoms/countries in the last 2000 years. Once you read that, you'd find how silly it is to think that organisations like FAS or some public mouthpiece knows what its talking about when it comes to secret service.

Oh ! What am i seeing here ??? CC is shying away from a discussion ? Have i scared you away CC ? or you already admit to your comparative lack of information on this subject ? Whichever way , I guess this is a first on ICF ! :

But if you think that FAS should be a reliable source ( or any such website/circular) on the topic of secret service, be my guest. Thats more utopian than i wanna deal with.

FAS is not making any ground breaking claim here , for us to verify its credentials and then accept it. RAW has for long been providing covert support to the Baloch nationalists. I can rattle off one proof after another to substantiate my claim. Its for you to show otherwise.

I see. I apologize for the confusion- but my post was meant to be read as a whole- my opening line ( doesnt compute) is stating my doubt of the original piece- which is Lal Masjid dudes were helped by India. The But statement i assumed would be clear enough ( clearly, not), to show the break in previous thought ( on the Balochi comment). I guess the statement should read : " But to support a bunch of fundie muslims(inside the mosque) who are the exact same type that blow up people in India over 100 times every year ? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever...."

I never said i think RAW had a hand in the laal mosque siege. I just told that they provided covert support to the baloch nationals.

[THX_1138]

Ok my secret is out. Yes it was us, the RAW who were behind the whole debacle. We had masterminded this whole thing from day one. we knew that by killing three chinese nationals we would be able to instigate a fundamentalist uprising against the moderate government, shift the battleground to a 'previously benign mosque reputed for its moderate and secular views': the Lal Masjid. Thereupon add to the whole affair by causing further uproar through mind control of a chief justice and transforming him into a puppet to challenge the popular, democratically elected, much loved head of state: General, i mean President Musharaff. Yes, we were the svengali behind this entire episode and had it not been for the vital piece of evidence, that passport of indian origin that one of our crack operatives just happen to forget behind in the Lal masjid, pakistan would have never known of our involvement. And while we are at it: yes it was us who killed Diana, we are causing global warming, we are why the Dodos are extinct, and we know where Jimmy Hoffa is...

[Zooter]

:hysterical: Typical Pakistani GARBAGE. Yes, RAW does dirty intelligence work--and the ISI doesn't?!!?!? If RAW is a street pocket-theif, ... the ISI is the Devil himself. No way RAW has this much power--they're giving Indian intelligence WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY too much credit. This is textbook: whenever Pak. is stuck between a rock and a hard-place, it blames Indian intelligence. Much like the Neo-Cons blaming "Muslim terrorists" for every nasty thing that happens under the sun. I've read this general storyline more times than I can count.

[Rajiv]

Sounds like a day-time soap opera where ladies gossip to pass their time

[CC1981]

FAS isnt making any predictions of what is going to happen in the future. They have documented a well-known fact. So " its all guesswork , so its wrong" is doesnt apply to this situation.

I call BS. As i said, FAS is leading you on (and the rest) to believe that they actually got a clue about secret services around the world- they don't, if they did, it beats the whole purpose of secret service. I have known a few army vets/ex-army folks who laugh at those websites and their gimmick to generate some money by making the public feel like it knows wtf it is talking about re: secret services.

But they have acknowledged the support they got from RAW in many interviews with independent western journalists.

And thats what makes it BS. Secret service and intelligence organizations don't work that way. But the dime-a-dozen websites and journals who make money off of you believing they know what is going on would certainly like you to keep believing so.

[Ram]

I call BS. As i said, FAS is leading you on (and the rest) to believe that they actually got a clue about secret services around the world- they don't, if they did, it beats the whole purpose of secret service. I have known a few army vets/ex-army folks who laugh at those websites and their gimmick to generate some money by making the public feel like it knows wtf it is talking about re: secret services.

FAS was just one my sources. What if I show 2-3 more sources that point out that the RAW had a hand in baloch freedom movement ? The thing here is , I can come up with credible evidence to support my claim . Can you come up with similar proof to support your claim ?

And thats what makes it BS. Secret service and intelligence organizations don't work that way. But the dime-a-dozen websites and journals who make money off of you believing they know what is going on would certainly like you to keep believing so.

What do you mean ? EVERYBODY knew the CIA propped up the jehadists to fight the Soviet in Afghanistan. Its not like the CIA went on public service messaging spree proclaiming it. You have got this one well and truly wrong CC. Here is Mr.Raman , former RAW chief saying that the " freedom of Balochistan is an unfinished agenda of the partition of pakistan of 1971"... http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1380858.cms

[CC1981]

Can you come up with similar proof to support your claim ?

Yes. Its called common sense. If secret service agendas and plans were known by FAS or few other internet websites, it'd beat the whole point of having a secret service. There is another word for it : misinformation.

Its not like the CIA went on public service messaging spree proclaiming it.

No but the Pentagon did.

[Ram]

Yes. Its called common sense. If secret service agendas and plans were known by FAS or few other internet websites, it'd beat the whole point of having a secret service. There is another word for it : misinformation.

You have to understand that there a few obvious truths in this world The CIA supported the jihadists in Afghanistan. The ISI supported the Kashmir terrorists. RAW helped Baloch guys. The Iranian govt actively helps the Hezbollah. If you are still going to deny it , then i dont know what else to say. Besides , i have shown the former cheif of RAW saying that RAW's role in Balochistan is not over-hyped by pakistan. Cant find any more damming evidence than this. Can you come up with anything to counter this ? Dont try to hide behind arguments focussed on logic and technicalities. Answer the hard questions CC.