Nuclear deal almost sold -- What's next?

[sandtest]

Firstly let me recall the simla pact of 1971, when we handed over more than 30 thousands of paki rapist soldiers for the "illusion of peace". Oh and this was under Amreeki pressure, IMHO young Indians should not forget that Nixon and Henry Kissinger actively supported Paki rapist army. Nixon sent USS Enterprise- armed with nuclear missile in bay of bengal to deter India at a crucial time when she was gaining upper-hand over Paki oppressors. This forced Indira ji to sign that so called 'peaceful" treaty. But those were different times. Now we have no pressure, MMS has backing of Atomic Energy Commission and Indian scientists, so why the deal a sell off?? The main part--- right to test the nuclear weapons in future has been compromised. Future PMs of India has to live with this reality -- when Chincommies and Pakis will be busy desiging tactical Nukes in modern day warfare. May I say that MMS has sold a very important strategic interest of our Nation and this qualifies him to be called as a traitor. And as usual our "well informed" media is celebrating this as some sort of victory --- Isko kehtey hain Agyanta (Supreme Ignorance):giggle: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/US-India_nuke_deal_1_2_3go/articleshow/2223742.cms

[Ram]

The main part--- right to test the nuclear weapons in future has been compromised. Future PMs of India has to live with this reality -- when Chincommies and Pakis will be busy desiging tactical Nukes in modern day warfare. May I say that MMS has sold a very important strategic interest of our Nation and this qualifies him to be called as a traitor.

Reading these lines , I am tempted to ask -- Do you know the details of the deal at all ?

[Ram]

The nuclear deal with the US has NOTHING to do with the military aspect of our nuclear. We arent a signatory of the CTBT , so we arent constrained in any way at all from testing any nuclear device we wish to. The nuclear deal with US is simply a pact for furthering civilian nuclear cooperation. In exchange for technology and fuel from the US , India has agree to open its civilian nuclear facilities to the IAEA regime of inspections. The nuclear facilities which serve our military program does NOT fall under this regime. Therefore to claim that we cant test any further or Manmohan Singh is a traitor is simply, nonsense. Infact , the US has been accused of a sell-out vis-a-vis the nuclear deal. They have been accused of showing special treatment towards India for this deal.

[CC1981]

This is not that important for India in the long run- the moment we can make thorium breeder reactions, we are nuclear self-sufficient.

[sandtest]

Reading these lines ' date=' I am tempted to ask -- Do you know the details of the deal at all ?[/quote'] Details of 123 agreement are still not out yet as it is not officially ratified by both parties. However, July 18 2005, agreement between MMS and Bush was the basis for this deal. http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/07/20050718-6.html

India should acquire the same benefits and advantages as other such states. The President told the Prime Minister that he will work to achieve full civil nuclear energy cooperation with India as it realizes its goals of promoting nuclear power and achieving energy security. The President would also seek agreement from Congress to adjust U.S. laws and policies, and the United States will work with friends and allies to adjust international regimes to enable full civil nuclear energy cooperation and trade with India, including but not limited to expeditious consideration of fuel supplies for safeguarded nuclear reactors at Tarapur. In the meantime, the United States will encourage its partners to also consider this request expeditiously. India has expressed its interest in ITER and a willingness to contribute. The United States will consult with its partners considering India's participation. The United States will consult with the other participants in the Generation IV International Forum with a view toward India's inclusion. The Prime Minister conveyed that for his part, India would reciprocally agree that it would be ready to assume the same responsibilities and practices and acquire the same benefits and advantages as other leading countries with advanced nuclear technology, such as the United States. These responsibilities and practices consist of identifying and separating civilian and military nuclear facilities and programs in a phased manner and filing a declaration regarding its civilians facilities with the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA); taking a decision to place voluntarily its civilian nuclear facilities under IAEA safeguards; signing and adhering to an Additional Protocol with respect to civilian nuclear facilities; continuing India's unilateral moratorium on nuclear testing; working with the United States for the conclusion of a multilateral Fissile Material Cut Off Treaty; refraining from transfer of enrichment and reprocessing technologies to states that do not have them and supporting international efforts to limit their spread; and ensuring that the necessary steps have been taken to secure nuclear materials and technology through comprehensive export control legislation and through harmonization and adherence to Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) and Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) guidelines.

Main concerrns relating our interests for the above deal were -- (1) Seperation of Nuclear reactors for civilian use (2) Testing of Nuclear weapons -- India has self-imposed restriction for Nuke tests ever since Pokhran-2, that means we will not test Nukes by our own will, however that also means that seeing new geo-political developments in neighboring nations we can excercise our right to test new type of Nuclear weapons if situation demands. And this has been seriously undermined now. One more thing which popped up was -- (3) Right to reprocess Nuclear fuel This is a classic example how American hawks negotiate . If one looks carefully, July 18 agreement clearly says that India should be "refraining from transfer of enrichment and reprocessing technologies to states that do not have them and supporting international efforts to limit their spread" Now this never mentioned that India herself, cannot receive the right to reprocess the spent nuclear fuel. But sadly, this popped up during negotiations of Hyde agreement. Now US has agreed that India will be given right to reprocess the spent fuel but in a dedicated spereate new facility for this purpose under strict American/IAEA regime. If you will see, in fact US has given nothing new to India. Typical american way of negotiation, if they owe you 10 Dollars they will give you first 8 and later 2 and will make sure that you will feel as if you got 2 dollars more!

[sandtest]

The nuclear deal with the US has NOTHING to do with the military aspect of our nuclear. We arent a signatory of the CTBT , so we arent constrained in any way at all from testing any nuclear device we wish to. The nuclear deal with US is simply a pact for furthering civilian nuclear cooperation. In exchange for technology and fuel from the US , India has agree to open its civilian nuclear facilities to the IAEA regime of inspections. The nuclear facilities which serve our military program does NOT fall under this regime. Therefore to claim that we cant test any further or Manmohan Singh is a traitor is simply, nonsense. Infact , the US has been accused of a sell-out vis-a-vis the nuclear deal. They have been accused of showing special treatment towards India for this deal.

This has a lot to do with the military aspect. In fact we are enetring into CTBT through backdoor. USA has signed CTBT but never ratified it. By agreeing to stop future Nuclear tests we have unknowingly not only signed CTBT but also ratified it. Those who say that there is no restriction on India for testing Nukes are just under illusion. Hyde act has clear provisions if India tests Nuke the deal will be off, fuel supply will stop, effectively putting our billions of rupess investmenst into garbage. Those Indians living in America must know this, as how USA does armtwisting in the name of "peace" and "freindship". PS: I am not against Indo-american freindship saga.

[Ram]

Main concerrns relating our interests for the above deal were -- (1) Seperation of Nuclear reactors for civilian use

This is obvious and will not impact our military nuclear program. And it is natural the US-IAEA ask for civilian nuclear reactors to be put under safeguards since they would now receive international help.

(2) Testing of Nuclear weapons -- India has self-imposed restriction for Nuke tests ever since Pokhran-2, that means we will not test Nukes by our own will, however that also means that seeing new geo-political developments in neighboring nations we can excercise our right to test new type of Nuclear weapons if situation demands. And this has been seriously undermined now.

I dont understand what you are saying. where does it say - " We cant test nuclear devices" ? . The fact is , we can test nuclear weapon tomorow if we want. We havent signed CTBT . We are not bound by ANY agreement against testing nuclear weapons.

One more thing which popped up was -- (3) Right to reprocess Nuclear fuel This is a classic example how American hawks negotiate . If one looks carefully, July 18 agreement clearly says that India should be "refraining from transfer of enrichment and reprocessing technologies to states that do not have them and supporting international efforts to limit their spread" Now this never mentioned that India herself, cannot receive the right to reprocess the spent nuclear fuel.

The amercians are concerned because they fear spent fuel by India could somehow make its way into terrorist hands. that is why they have included that clause. And dont worry about nuclear fuel for India. We have plenty of it in our country itself.

If you will see, in fact US has given nothing new to India. Typical american way of negotiation, if they owe you 10 Dollars they will give you first 8 and later 2 and will make sure that you will feel as if you got 2 dollars more!

The US has given us a LOT of things. 1) We have been removed from the days international boycott over our nuclear tests. Now we can buy nuclear tech and fuel from almost any member of the NSG or the nuclear suppliers group. 2) India will now get access to latest nuclear tech that we so desperately need.

[sandtest]

This is obvious and will not impact our military nuclear program. And it is natural the US-IAEA ask for civilian nuclear reactors to be put under safeguards since they would now receive international help.

yep agree, this was NOT a deal-breaker, but a concern neverthless from Indian perspective since at present our all reactors are inter-related with military use. We have to go through the tedious task of seperation, plus the high costs incurred. Not to mention, in one stroke Unkil will get "insight" of our nuclear programme, which was so far safeguarded.

I dont understand what you are saying. where does it say - " We cant test nuclear devices" ? . The fact is , we can test nuclear weapon tomorow if we want. We havent signed CTBT . We are not bound by ANY agreement against testing nuclear weapons.

Read post no.6 Hyde agreement which was passed recently by American Parliament has clear provisions for calling off the deal if we test the nukes. Clearly hear america has screwed our right to test even though we haven't signed CTBT.

The amercians are concerned because they fear spent fuel by India could somehow make its way into terrorist hands. that is why they have included that clause. And dont worry about nuclear fuel for India. We have plenty of it in our country itself.

Arrey Bhai, don't see America from NPT (Non proliferation Taliban) point of view onlee. This is the mistake most NRIs do when they look at Unkil with "respect". America knows very well that India will never proliferate seeing their past records that is why they initiated this unique agreement. Let's shatter the myth created by america regarding right to reprocess. Actually, american comapnies are going to have golden opportunity of billion plus dollar market of Nuclear reactors . Here clealry american Nuclear lobbies are at work. They not only want to supply reactors to India but also want to reprocess the fuel in future so that business keeps going seeing India's projected energy needs in next 50-75 years. Now reprocessing if they were able to secure means effectively reducing India as "user".

The US has given us a LOT of things. 1) We have been removed from the days international boycott over our nuclear tests. Now we can buy nuclear tech and fuel from almost any member of the NSG or the nuclear suppliers group.

No dear, USA has secured thousands of jobs and billion dollar business in energy market. Sooner or later IAEA have to do this seeing India's better record in proliferation than China and growing menace of greenhouse gases with petroleum/coal use.

India will now get access to latest nuclear tech that we so desperately need

Yes that is true, but with most strict inspection of IAEA/ USA intelligence agencies, I doubt how our scientists will benefit from this. As CC highlighted we are in critical stage of development of Fast Breeder Reactor. This deal will slow down the pace of indigenous development.

[gorah_pindu]

MMS believes that opening the nuclear power sector to outsiders would solve the single biggest infrastructure problem India has - power generation. He could be right. He could be wrong. Knowing that India failed to reap the rewards of global growth for 50 years due to isolationism, while Japan, Korea and Taiwan raced ahead, people are understandably weary of letting this chance slip.

[Zooter]

IT'S A TRAP I don't have time to re-research all the documents right now, but I've read soooooo much on how this is nothing but a instrument to trap India into cooperating with the U.S. in terms of foreign policy (i.e. ... and this is NOT a joke ... if America attacks Iran [which it will], India has to support it!!). The one thing that really bowled me over was that the Indian Nuclear Scientist Association or Federation or whatever they call themselves themselves PUBLICALLY DENOUCED THE TREATY. You know who the biggest backers of this sham treaty are?? Henry Kissenger, Dick Cheney and all the other Neo-Cons. (Bush has no idea what's going on). There is a very good reason the BJP has been against this. It looks good, but it's a trap--it always is with the Americans--they don't give two sh*ts about you--it's just another instrument for control.

[Guest dada_rocks]

oke i am yet to read whole deal.. but when two indivuduals of diamterically opposite camp arun shourie and m j akbar agree on sthg... u better take note.. they both are against this deal.........As i gathered from their articles the deal doesn't explicitly say India is free to pursue its military program as it wants as long as these two remains insulated form each other but it does chime the usa commitment to ctbt and every future decions be seen through the non-proliferation prism.. If tomorrow some usa dmind hiding behind this clause stops cooperation all the infrastuctural investmen keeping this treaty in mnd will go down the drain.. the verbal assurance of bush which is being given weightage by manmohan singh govt is not worth anything..