Sachin has not performed under pressure: Kapil

[Holysmoke]

Holy the day Sachin takes India to a WC win you would be free to shout whatever you want to, else keep quiet about Kapil Dev. The man was instrumental in winning 1983 WC, 1985 WSC, 1985 Asia Cup and tons of other "pressure" situation. What exactly has Sachin won for us?? xxx

India won the 83 world cup.. but it was a team effort. It was a total team effort. If you saw the WC 2003, It was sachin who took us single handedly to the final. So world cup wins, etc does not even come into the picture. We are talking about individual players, not teams that they played for. The teams that won the 83 WC, 85 WSC, Asia cup, etc were good TEAMS. Kapil was lucky to have players like gavaskar etc. As for what exactly sachin has won for us, u gotta be kidding mate. Show me one series, where kapil played even close to what sachin did in sharjah. I lost all respect I had for kapil when i saw replays of the hero cup. and forget all that, in any case, I dont think kapil has any right, any whatsoever to talk about sachin under pressure, esp what has happenned. fickle indian fans are those, who forget stuff like that.

[Holysmoke]

Sachin is a great batsman, according to some Indians the greatest Indian ever. Fair enough. What is also true is that for a long time Sachin was one man band as far as India was concerned. However it is also true that if it the case of one-upmanship then Kapil was better than Sachin. Sachin atleast had the advantage of having an Azhar, a Dravid, a VVS at various point of his career, whom did Kapil had? He was as one man band as you would ever find. I also don't buy this thought that Sachin carried the entire country on his shoulder. He certainly carried it better than others but make no mistakes about the support he received.

HAHA.. what are you saying mate Kapil had gavaskar, vengsarkar, vishwanath.. so many other players. If you really think that kapil was a more 1-man team than Sachin, theres something wrong. really..... advantage of having azhar? dude, the guy used to fix matches. enough said.

[Lurker]

India won the 83 world cup.. but it was a team effort. It was a total team effort. If you saw the WC 2003, It was sachin who took us single handedly to the final. So world cup wins, etc does not even come into the picture. We are talking about individual players, not teams that they played for. The teams that won the 83 WC, 85 WSC, Asia cup, etc were good TEAMS. Kapil was lucky to have players like gavaskar etc.

So Kapil was lucky to have players like Gavaskar?? What a grand statement!! Sunil Gavaskar is easily one of the cr@ppiest LOI players India produced. Also as a Test batsman his performance under Kapil is hardly better than this overall record. So much so for Sunil Gavaskar playing under Kapil Dev. As for a team effort sure who is denying that. Kapil himself never claims that glory but the FACT remains that the single most important player of that era was Kapil Dev. And his performance in all the mentioned Tournament speaks volume for itself. In 1983 he played one of the greatest innings ever(175*), the lack of which would have pushed India out of WC. In the WC finals his catching was what turned the game on its head, not to mention his handling of team while chasing a gargantuan 183. In 1985 WSC it was Kapil who played a blinder in semis against NZ to take India into finals and in finals against Pakistan ended up taking 3 wickets for bare minimum(for the record I saw the two games live and I maintain Kapil should have been MOM in both). In the Asia Cup he was the one that resisted Imran(he took 6-14) with a solid 30 and took 3 quick wickets to help dismiss Pakistan for 87. Now read that again, and show me how Sachin comes close in pressure situation. 1996 WC finals? 2003 WC finals? Any other tournament you can throw at me?

As for what exactly sachin has won for us, u gotta be kidding mate.

Read up. I am talking of tournaments and the question remains, what tournament have we won while Sachin has been playing? At the end of the day the greatest achievement of Indian cricket remains 1983 WSC, it doesnt matter what Sachin did if he can not recreate history.

Show me one series, where kapil played even close to what sachin did in sharjah.

You obviously don't know enough of cricket then sorry. For one Sharjah was a LOI tournament. When you say a series it means Test match, so your argument is basically twisted in its own arse. But if you want a series I will give you one. Check Kapil's performance against West Indies in India in 1984. Windies were the best team in the world and had come to India to extract revenge of 1983. Go check Kapil's performance and come back to me.

I lost all respect I had for kapil when i saw replays of the hero cup.

All powers to you, even if you are obviously mistaken.

and forget all that, in any case, I dont think kapil has any right, any whatsoever to talk about sachin under pressure, esp what has happenned.

It must pain to be a Sachin fan these days. First it was non-Indian fans/experts/players who started criticizing Sachin. This happened about 2 years back. Then Indian media/fans started criticizing Sachin. This happened a year back. Now we have ex-Indian greats criticizing Sachin. heck the other day even a team player(read Sehwag) did not speak in exactly a very complimentary tone. The fickle Indian fans are those who can not see the writing on the wall and insist their hero gets humilated daily. Check out today's CI and Sachin vs Sunny comparison. Go on. xxx

[Lurker]

HAHA.. what are you saying mate Kapil had gavaskar, vengsarkar, vishwanath.. so many other players. If you really think that kapil was a more 1-man team than Sachin, theres something wrong. really.....

Yes they were all bowlers!! Right go on laugh some more :hysterical:

advantage of having azhar? dude, the guy used to fix matches. enough said.

Still gets selected in all time Indian XI. Must have been one heck of a player who fixed matches, still ended up with 45 plus average. Wonder if he hadnt fixed matches what his average would be..Maybe more than Sachin..wait we can not say that about Gods can we now? xxx

[Predator_05]

Now read that again, and show me how Sachin comes close in pressure situation. 1996 WC finals? 2003 WC finals? Any other tournament you can throw at me? Read up. I am talking of tournaments and the question remains, what tournament have we won while Sachin has been playing?

Here are a few; 1995 Wills World Series vs WI - http://www.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1994-95/OD_TOURNEYS/WLSWS/IND_WI_WLSWS_ODI-FINAL_05NOV1994.html Man of the match in the final (which India won) and Man of the Series 1997 Titan Cup final vs SA - http://www.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1996-97/OD_TOURNEYS/TITAN/TITAN-MATCHES/IND_RSA_TITAN_ODI-FINAL_06NOV1996.html Tendulkar top scores and India beat the best team in the world at the time, South Africa You mentioned the Asia Cup ? Tendulkar top scored with 205 runs in the 1995 Asia Cup which India WON. http://www.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1994-95/OD_TOURNEYS/ASIA/ASIA_APR1995_BAT_AVS.html The last time India were in the final of Asia Cup (back in '04) who top scored in that final ? Oh, and India won 4 - count them - 4 ODI trophies in 1997/98. Guess who top scored in all those four finals ? Seriously, the sheer magnitude of HORSE-SH*T that i read denigrating Tendulkar on this board on a daily basis just blows my mind. Do you people think before you make bullsh*t statements like "Tendulkar has never won an ODI tournament for India". For f*cks sake.

[Lurker]

Here are a few; 1995 Wills World Series vs WI - http://www.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1994-95/OD_TOURNEYS/WLSWS/IND_WI_WLSWS_ODI-FINAL_05NOV1994.html Man of the match in the final (which India won) and Man of the Series 1997 Titan Cup final vs SA - http://www.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1996-97/OD_TOURNEYS/TITAN/TITAN-MATCHES/IND_RSA_TITAN_ODI-FINAL_06NOV1996.html Tendulkar top scores and India beat the best team in the world at the time, South Africa You mentioned the Asia Cup ? Tendulkar top scored with 205 runs in the 1995 Asia Cup which India WON. http://www.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1994-95/OD_TOURNEYS/ASIA/ASIA_APR1995_BAT_AVS.html The last time India were in the final of Asia Cup (back in '04) who top scored in that final ? Oh, and India won 4 - count them - 4 ODI trophies in 1997/98. Guess who top scored in all those four finals ? Seriously, the sheer magnitude of HORSE-SH*T that i read denigrating Tendulkar on this board on a daily basis just blows my mind. Do you people think before you make bullsh*t statements like "Tendulkar has never won an ODI tournament for India". For f*cks sake.

Right and all those tournament qualifies for what? Errrr nothing. Give me a WSC or a World Cup. These tournaments, dime a dozen, noone cares for. All 2nd great part timer tournament. Come up with a World Cup, nothing else matters. End of story. xxx

[Predator_05]

Right and all those tournament qualifies for what? Errrr nothing. Give me a WSC or a World Cup. These tournaments, dime a dozen, noone cares for. All 2nd great part timer tournament. Come up with a World Cup, nothing else matters. End of story. xxx

So why did you mention the Asia Cup for Kapil Dev then, eh ? Keep moving your goalposts, what else can you do when people sh*t on your vaccuous arguments. In the Asia Cup he was the one that resisted Imran(he took 6-14) with a solid 30 and took 3 quick wickets to help dismiss Pakistan for 87. My lasting memory of Kapil Dev will be of a fat, selfish piece of sh*t who played on for the 434th wicket at the expense of keeping younger, BETTER bowlers like Srinath out of the team. People claim Tendulkar plays for records but how is that for selfishness ? and of course, who can forget Kapil's MAGNIFICENT coaching stint with India in 1999. That stuttering in press conferences after every big Indian defeat, taking his players on tourist trips down the Yarra River in Melbourne instead of spending time coaching them at the nets like any COMPETENT coach would have done. No wonder the team started winning matches once he got the boot. ...and another thing, Tendulkar could score in single digits for the next 5 years (if he lasts that long) and he will STILL be remembered as the greatest batsman of his generation, forever immortalised as the closest anyone has ever come to Don Bradman. Compare that legacy to Kapil Dev, what with his bowling average of 29 (LMFAO) and batting average of 31 (LOL) - known by all and sundry as the worst of the four all-rounders that played the 1980's. Don't take it from me - the man said it himself in an interview to the BBC.

[Lurker]

So why did you mention the Asia Cup for Kapil Dev then' date=' eh ? Keep moving your goalposts, what else can you do when people sh*t on your vaccuous arguments. [i']In the Asia Cup he was the one that resisted Imran(he took 6-14) with a solid 30 and took 3 quick wickets to help dismiss Pakistan for 87.

Huh are you missing forest for trees here? I mention Asia Cup AFTER I mention World Cup and WSC Cup. Unlike you my argument is complimented by Asia Cup. Yours on the other hand consists ENTIRELY of dime a dozen tournaments. Get the difference?

My lastng memory of Kapil Dev will be of a fat, selfish piece of sh*t who played on for the 434th wicket at the expense of keeping younger, BETTER bowlers like Srinath out of the team. People claim Tendulkar plays for records but how is that for selfishness ? and of course, who can forget Kapil's MAGNIFICENT coaching stint with India in 1999. That stuttering in press conferences after every big Indian defeat, taking his players on tourist trips down the Yarra River in Melbourne instead of spending time coaching them at the nets like any COMPETENT coach would have done. No wonder the team started winning matches once he got the boot.

Couldnt care less.

...and another thing, Tendulkar could score in single digits for the next 5 years (if he lasts that long) and he will STILL be remembered as the greatest batsman of his generation, forever immortalised as the closest anyone has ever come to Don Bradman. Compare that legacy to Kapil Dev, what with his bowling average of 29 (LMFAO) and batting average of 31 (LOL) - known by all and sundry as the worst of the four all-rounders that played the 1980's. Don't take it from me - the man said it himself in an interview to the BBC.

[Holysmoke]

But if you want a series I will give you one. Check Kapil's performance against West Indies in India in 1984. Windies were the best team in the world and had come to India to extract revenge of 1983. Go check Kapil's performance and come back to me.

Mat Runs HS BatAv 100 50 W BB BowlAv 5w Ct St unfiltered 225 3783 175* 23.79 1 14 253 5/43 27.45 1 71 0 filtered 4 104 44* 34.66 0 0 6 3/44 22.50 0 0 0 Runs W/R Ct St I *+ R Match 17 - - - 1 * L 1st ODI v WI in Ind 1983/84 at Srinagar [226] - 0/12 0 0 2 * 15 - - - 1 * L 2nd ODI v WI in Ind 1983/84 at Vadodara [227] - 2/38 0 0 2 * 28 - - - 1 * L 3rd ODI v WI in Ind 1983/84 at Indore [228] - 1/41 0 0 2 * - 3/44 0 0 1 * L 4th ODI v WI in Ind 1983/84 at Jamshedpur [229] 44* - - - 2 * 1 "above average" performance of 3/44 with the ball. one innings of 44 not out:hysterical: Let me give you the benefit of doubt.. and say that you were trying to compare a test series with an odi series the test series. Kapil had 1 brilliant performance of 9/83 which was once in a lifetime, i agree other than that.. a 6/77 no other innings with 5+ wichets in 6 tests, mind you, thats 12 innings while batting, highest score of 69.. nothing else more than 35 6 single digit scores Is this guy actually the best indian player ever? You told me to dig this up to compare what srt did against aus.. singlehandedly.. under pressure? just 1 innings of 9/83 where he carried india... sachin did that 2 in a row, in the semifinal and final. im not sure kapil even understands what pressure means the pressure in the 80's and the 90's is nothing compared to the pressure sachin faces now

[Holysmoke]

[ By the way this personal attack on Kapil would get you nothing, only proves my point that Sachin did NOTHING when it came to big tournaments like World Cup. Go on prove me wrong. Put up or SHUT UP! xxxx

before wc 2007, (which was the longest wc), sachin was the only player, ever to score more than 500 runs in a world cup, He did it not once, but twice 523 in wc96 and 673 in 2003 nobody else crossed 500 if you think that isnt carrying ur team single handedly, then you dont know what you are talking about and this is the big stage, mind you,.. the world cup.

[Predator_05]

Huh are you missing forest for trees here? I mention Asia Cup AFTER I mention World Cup and WSC Cup. Unlike you my argument is complimented by Asia Cup. Yours on the other hand consists ENTIRELY of dime a dozen tournaments. Get the difference?

:haha: It's only a dime-a-dozen tournament when Tendulkar wins.

Couldnt care less.

...and i couldn't care less what you think of Tendulkar, but it's still my duty to educate you

Lara has already been christened as the best batsman of his generation.

LMFAO !!! Really ? By who ? YOU ? :hysterical: Spoken like a true self-loather. Your hero Gavaskar obviously disagrees --> Gavaskar told The Daily Telegraph: "For all Bradman's achievements, Tendulkar is the closest thing to batting perfection I've seen - in terms of technique and temperament. He is probably the most complete batsman the game has seen." How about this ? The only cricketer from the modern era to make Bradman's all-time XI ? I'll take his view over yours "It is known that Bradman had said Sachin's shot production, style and compactness were closest to him. Sir Don, being pragmatic, selected Sachin as someone nearest to him in the modern era," Perry told PTI in an interview in Sydney. http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/india/content/story/96249.html

By the way this personal attack on Kapil would get you nothing' date=' only proves my point that Sachin did NOTHING when it came to big tournaments like World Cup. Go on prove me wrong. Put up or SHUT UP!xxxx[/quote'] LOL Done nothing in World Cups ? Again, who holds all the batting records for that tournament ? Clue; it's NOT Kapil Dev...:hysterical: Personal attack ? I just gave my opinion on Kapil, like you gave your opiinion on Tendulkar. This is what we do on forums - exchange opinions. If you don't like what you read, don't read it. Simple as that. If you make stupid statements claiming that "Tendulkar has never won any tournament for India", obviously you will get some stick coming your way

[Lurker]

Let me give you the benefit of doubt.. and say that you were trying to compare a test series with an odi series the test series. Kapil had 1 brilliant performance of 9/83 which was once in a lifetime, i agree other than that.. a 6/77 no other innings with 5+ wichets in 6 tests, mind you, thats 12 innings

No you do not need to give me the benefit of doubt. All you need to realize is it is Test series we are talking about. Alright so lets get down to business. This is Kapil's performance in that series. 6 Tests 29 wickets @18.51 Now lets dig deeper into this, shall we: 1) Next highest wicket taker from India - Maninder Singh 10 wickets. 2) Highest wicket taker from either sides - Marshall 33@18.81 3) Kapil's strike rate 42. 4) Rest of Indian bowling strike rate 99! Kapil has the best bowling average(in the entire series) against the best side of its time who were hell bent on revenge and his strike is 1/2 than rest of the bowling attack put together. What was that whole "pressure" thing you were talking about Holy? :D:D xxx

[Lurker]

It's only a dime-a-dozen tournament when Tendulkar wins.

Of course it is. Since your memory failed you let me remind you that NONE of the tournaments you mentioned can be mentioned in the same breath as World Cup. Titan Cup had what like 3 team? Wills Cup had like what 3 team? On Indian soil as well. Yeah sure keep yourself happy with those itsy bitsy tournament.

...and i couldn't care less what you think of Tendulkar, but it's still my duty to educate you

Hahaha duty. Thats a new one.Are you doing this as a job? Cos you truly suck at it!

Your hero Gavaskar obviously disagrees -->

My hero? Where did I even mention that? Let me guess you have now started pullings things out of your arse to make for arguments. Sure sure allow me to have a big laugh at your lunacy.

Gavaskar told The Daily Telegraph: "For all Bradman's achievements, Tendulkar is the closest thing to batting perfection I've seen - in terms of technique and temperament. He is probably the most complete batsman the game has seen."

Irrelevant. Are we discussing Sachin's technique here? Since the only thing worse than your cricket knowledge is your memory let me reiterate the question that has left you smarting - Which International Cup of the magnitude of the World Cup has Sachin won for us? Put up or SHUT UP!

How about this ? The only cricketer from the modern era to make Bradman's all-time XI ? I'll take his view over yours "It is known that Bradman had said Sachin's shot production, style and compactness were closest to him. Sir Don, being pragmatic, selected Sachin as someone nearest to him in the modern era," Perry told PTI in an interview in Sydney. http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/india/content/story/96249.html

That was 10 years back. Grow up now will you. For the record I find it hard to believe that any Indian cricket fan would not be a fan of Sachin of 90s but it is the Sachin of today that we are criticizing.

Done nothing in World Cups ? Again, who holds all the batting records for that tournament ? Clue; it's NOT Kapil Dev..

And at the end of his career Sachin would still trade all those runs for the cup that Paaji lifted at Lords. Go on cry some more.

Personal attack ? I just gave my opinion on Kapil, like you gave your opiinion on Tendulkar. This is what we do on forums - exchange opinions. If you don't like what you read, don't read it. Simple as that. If you make stupid statements claiming that "Tendulkar has never won any tournament for India", obviously you will get some stick coming your way

lol...Opinions like FAT F@**. Either you lack manners of being respectful to cricketing greats or are pure dumb. Regardless get back to the question and stop wasting time. What tournament has Sachin won that will come even remotely close to World Cup.?? xxxx

[Holysmoke]

No you do not need to give me the benefit of doubt. All you need to realize is it is Test series we are talking about. Alright so lets get down to business. This is Kapil's performance in that series. 6 Tests 29 wickets @18.51 Now lets dig deeper into this, shall we: 1) Next highest wicket taker from India - Maninder Singh 10 wickets. 2) Highest wicket taker from either sides - Marshall 33@18.81 3) Kapil's strike rate 42. 4) Rest of Indian bowling strike rate 99! Kapil has the best bowling average(in the entire series) against the best side of its time who were hell bent on revenge and his strike is 1/2 than rest of the bowling attack put together. What was that whole "pressure" thing you were talking about Holy? :D:D xxx

why? i gave you an odi series, and you gave me a test series to compare it with????:omg_smile: anyways, you're trying to compare someone who was not even the best in the series..(marshall was the best).. against someone who was the best in the world west indies won the series that you are talking about.. and that too, 3-0 so your earlier argument goes down the drain lurks, you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. i see how you shyly ran away from the earlier discussion we were having. dont embarrass yourself further.

[Holysmoke]

Which International Cup of the magnitude of the World Cup has Sachin won for us? Put up or SHUT UP!

did kapil win the world cup for us? no, it was a team effort.

[Holysmoke]

if there was someone who really won the wc for us, it was roger binny and amarnath. On the other hand, there was no doubt that sachin took us single handedly to the wc final.

[zubinpepsi]

why? i gave you an odi series, and you gave me a test series to compare it with????:omg_smile: anyways, you're trying to compare someone who was not even the best in the series..(marshall was the best).. against someone who was the best in the world west indies won the series that you are talking about.. and that too, 3-0 so your earlier argument goes down the drain lurks, you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. i see how you shyly ran away from the earlier discussion we were having. dont embarrass yourself further.

holy u shud undst one thing.. when someone is comparing sachin with kapil, wat else u expect him to do? he can only talk about 83WC win and nothing else... so wat he can do..? jus leave him.. hes afterall supporting kapil whos famous in talking tripe..:hysterical:

[Holysmoke]

holy u shud undst one thing.. when someone is comparing sachin with kapil, wat else u expect him to do? he can only talk about 83WC win and nothing else... so wat he can do..? jus leave him.. hes after supporting kapil whos famous in talking tripe..:hysterical:

yea i think i should leave it. But it makes me feel bad, because i really thought lurks had a lot more sense than what he's been showing this week. I hope you have a good weekend, lurks. :thumbs_up:

[Lurker]

why? i gave you an odi series, and you gave me a test series to compare it with????

Why should I compare a ODI series?? Why not a Test series? Since this whole argument started from "pressure" thingy what defines pressure more ODI or Test?? And speaking of ODI the question remains - What International Tournament has Sachin won for us? Since you are so interested in LOI show me a World Cup or a WSC. Go on.

anyways, you're trying to compare someone who was not even the best in the series..(marshall was the best).. against someone who was the best in the world west indies won the series that you are talking about.. and that too, 3-0 so your earlier argument goes down the drain

How does it go down the drain? Just because you dont want to see the FACTS? You asked a series, I gave you a series. I gave you a performance that is as good as any on Indian soil, by a pace bowler nonetheless against the greatest team of its time that arrived with a single idea - to win? I showed you how Kapil was effectively better than an ENTIRE team put together. What else are you looking for?

lurks, you are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

Says who? I am arguing against people who are clueless about their own cricketing history. People who are living in past, and continue to pray Sachin for what he achieved 5 years before. If anyone is arguing for the ehck of it, its you. The FACT remains Sachin has NOT won anything remotely like a World Cup. Prove me wrong.

i see how you shyly ran away from the earlier discussion we were having. dont embarrass yourself further.

Wow!! So thats a personal shot now. What did I run away from? Umpiring? Sorry but after typing 200 posts I did not have enough patience to keep repeating itself. But if you make yourself happy be my guest. As for embarassment or not it is perhaps better if you just watch your own back mate :thumbs_up: xxx

[Lurker]

did kapil win the world cup for us? no' date=' it was a team effort.[/quote'] So now we go for semantics :hysterical::hysterical: Kapil stood at Lords and lifted the World Cup. Sachin can ONLY dream of it. Get used to that thought Holy! :tounge_smile: