Technique of batsman in the video : Is it exquisite or not ?

[Ultimate_Game]

Again don't confuse prob(B/A) = Prob(A/B). If Sachin had scored a fifty in that target of 120, nobody would have told that it was a crunch situation. Do you think that chasing 120 in fourth innings a cruch situation? It became crunch only when Sachin failed. In all earnest way, I suggest you to read complete article on psychological analysis, which I had posted few days back, to see why human mind fails to separate out these kind of cause and effects clearly.

I am defining crunch like it's interpreted across the world, i.e. "last chance saloon" or "no 2nd chances" scenario. In other words if you don't perform that innings you are gone. So that would be 2nd innings in Tests as in the 1st innings you always know at the back of your mind that you will have another chance to bat in the 2nd innings. Sehwag averages a ridiculous 70+ (at least he used to) in 1st innings but would you term him a great batsman at the crunch? I wouldn't but he's great for setting up the game in 1st innings. Same with SRT. He gets the runs when he's not under pressure. In the 2nd innings when India has to get to the target without anymore chances to bat SRT's not that great. Laxman easily trumps him in that regard.

[Raghav_12]

Abhay kuruvilla? seriously.. Dravid also made 233 in t he adelaide test.. he didn't wash his hands off in the second innings saying "my job is over in the first innings". He followed it up with a brilliant 72 not out in the 2nd innings. http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/64060.html

Then I would say, Adelaide test was won by Agarkar. All of Dravid's heroics were useless without Agarkar's contribution.

[Ultimate_Game]

If you are in a sinking boat, yes Laxman is better choice than Sachin. But hey, why let it come to the Sinking Boat. Have a sturdy ship with Sachin. Dude, I have great respect for Laxman and I am not gonna post a word against him. If you ask me to list out three best innings of year 2010, I would pick all three innings from Laxman's repertoire - Mohali, J'Borg and Colombo. But Sachin had his role in the team and Laxman had his.

Yes, I would want to have folks like Sehwag and Sachin in the team as I mentioned in my previous point but the point I am making is that players like Sehwag and SRT are not that great at the crunch and players like Laxman, Ponting, Graeme Smith etc. beats SRT hands down. What's wrong in saying that "dontknow: I am not deriding SRT but simply stating a fact that he's not at his best when it comes to handling pressure.

[Raghav_12]

I am defining crunch like it's interpreted across the world, i.e. "last chance saloon" or "no 2nd chances" scenario. In other words if you don't perform that innings you are gone. So that would be 2nd innings in Tests as in the 1st innings you always know at the back of your mind that you will have another chance to bat in the 2nd innings. Sehwag averages a ridiculous 70+ (at least he used to) in 1st innings but would you term him a great batsman at the crunch? I wouldn't but he's great for setting up the game in 1st innings. Same with SRT. He gets the runs when he's not under pressure. In the 2nd innings when India has to get to the target without anymore chances to bat SRT's not that great. Laxman easily trumps him in that regard.

You are bypassing the main argument. Do you think that, a target of 120 in fourth Innings a crunch situation or not?

[vvvslaxman]

Then I would say' date=' Adelaide test was won by Agarkar. All of Dravid's heroics were useless without Agarkar's contribution.[/quote'] Even with Agarkar's contribution India could have potentially lost. Because India batted after Agarkar's spell not before Agarkar's spell.

[Raghav_12]

Yes' date=' I would want to have folks like Sehwag and Sachin in the team as I mentioned in my previous point but the point I am making is that players like Sehwag and SRT are not that great at the crunch and players like Laxman, Ponting, Graeme Smith etc. beats SRT hands down. What's wrong in saying that "dontknow: I am not deriding SRT but simply stating a fact that he's not at his best when it comes to [b']handling pressure.

Your whole definition of pressure in wrong. India playing WC 2011 at home, great expectations from fans. Sachin rose upto occasion and scored heavily. WC 2003, great pressure. People throwing stones at Kaif's house. Sachin stood up and spoke in press conference that I am gonna take care and he did. Do you think, there were not pressure situations? Right statement would be that in certain kind of pressure situations Laxman is better than Sachin.

[Raghav_12]

Even with Agarkar's contribution India could have potentially lost. Because India batted after Agarkar's spell not before Agarkar's spell.

But Agarkar bowled after Dravid's double century. So do you agree with following pecking order of contributions from Indian players in Adelaise Test. 1. Dravid 72* 2. Agarkar 6 Wickets 3. Dravid Double Century

[Ultimate_Game]

Your whole definition of pressure in wrong. India playing WC 2011 at home, great expectations from fans. Sachin rose upto occasion and scored heavily. WC 2003, great pressure. People throwing stones at Kaif's house. Sachin stood up and spoke in press conference that I am gonna take care and he did. Do you think, there were not pressure situations? Right statement would be that in certain kind of pressure situations Laxman is better than Sachin.

And I am referring to those kind of pressure situations. I would pick SRT to score runs in a tourney as on an average he scores consistently but if it's a one-off game that you want someone to perform like WC finals I would pick Gambhir and Dhoni. Similarly in the 2nd innings of Tests, I would rather have Laxman.

[vvvslaxman]

But Agarkar bowled after Dravid's double century. So do you agree with following pecking order of contributions from Indian players in Adelaise Test. 1. Dravid 72* 2. Agarkar 6 Wickets 3. Dravid Double Century

I am not ranking anything. Merely saying... his 233 is significant and rated highly because of his 72*. Tendulkar scored 83 runs in the test we lost. Do anyone talk about it as often as Dravid's 233 or even Dravid's 81 recently in WI. No. Because he didn't exactly complete the job.

[Lurker]

Luks paee when waz started his carrier he was just a phaassst bowler ... a typical umesh yadav and he was not a big threat to some season players like Viv/Sunny.later on he became a real threat when SRT , RD we in there prime.... And I am suprised why we try to break our heads when the legends like VIV have said " if there is a bigger batsman than sachin then he not born yet" sry if have not quoted him word by word... This is coming from a legend who have played againt sunny more no of times then our age, and he have closey watched him then us. IF this is coming from some1 like VIV then I this it deserves respect.

Mh, dont go that route of becoming one of those who unknowingly diss greats just to prove a point. Wasim Akram and Umesh Yadav should not be mentioned in the same sentence. Ever! Not now anyways. And whats with "phaaaast" bowler idiom? I am supposed to feel embarassed by that? Thats another of modern day Indian frog-in-the-well mentality to take a potshot at Pakistanis. Akram took 10 wickets in NZ, in an away game in his 2nd Test. Which Indian fast bowler has EVER done that dude? The only Indian I beleive has taken 10 wickets in NZ is Prasanna and I am sure many modern Indian fans don't rate him either!! In Sunil Gavaskar's last game, Bangalore 87 that we lost, Akram was the lead pacer for Pakistan and took 2 wickets under 20 runs in 4th innings on a spin track. This against a batting line up that had Sunny, Amarnath, Vengsarkar, Azhar, Kapil etc. The day Umesh Yadav can perform similar feats would be the day you can have a shot at Wasim being this that or other...till then you should avoid taking a potshot at an all time great. :winky:

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[CSK Fan]

And I am referring to those kind of pressure situations. I would pick SRT to score runs in a tourney as on an average he scores consistently but if it's a one-off game that you want someone to perform like WC finals I would pick Gambhir and Dhoni. Similarly in the 2nd innings of Tests' date=' I would rather have Laxman.[/quote'] U_G will pick other players over Sachin? What a surprsie. dude, if it was upto you, you will pick Misbah over Sachin and would love to see Sachin retire in disgrace. Sachin has one of the best records in finals out of any Indian ODI batsmen. Yes, he failed in two world cup finals but two is IMO not enough of a sample. In 2003, we were chasing 350+. In 2011, Sachin was way past it. In fact Sachin has played better innings in finals than both Gambhir and Dhoni Of course we are talking about complete ODI career of Sachin. Remember we are talking about Sachin of the 90s. You are letting Sachin's current form and your obvious aversion of him cloud your judgement As for tests, if you are talking of 2nd innings (3+4 as opposed to 4th innings) then Sachin has been as good as Laxman. If you have are talking of 4th innings, Sachin is behind Laxman but not by far But then we have had these discussions with people like you so many times in the past that its simply not worth it anymore. Sachin had rubbed a lot of guys faces in the dirt in 2009 and the next two years. As soon as he fails, once again the made up arguments of pressure situations, etc come to the for front. Dont know how any neutral person can argue that the WC final was more pressure than the semi-final aganst Pakistan where some fans died and the atmosphere was unlike any other seen. You are just not being honest with yourself

[Lurker]

U_G will pick other players over Sachin? What a surprsie. dude, if it was upto you, you will pick Misbah over Sachin and would love to see Sachin retire in disgrace. Sachin has one of the best records in finals out of any Indian ODI batsmen. Yes, he failed in two world cup finals but two is IMO not enough of a sample. In 2003, we were chasing 350+. In 2011, Sachin was way past it. In fact Sachin has played better innings in finals than both Gambhir and Dhoni Of course we are talking about complete ODI career of Sachin. Remember we are talking about Sachin of the 90s. You are letting Sachin's current form and your obvious aversion of him cloud your judgement As for tests, if you are talking of 2nd innings (3+4 as opposed to 4th innings) then Sachin has been as good as Laxman. If you have are talking of 4th innings, Sachin is behind Laxman but not by far But then we have had these discussions with people like you so many times in the past that its simply not worth it anymore. Sachin had rubbed a lot of guys faces in the dirt in 2009 and the next two years. As soon as he fails, once again the made up arguments of pressure situations, etc come to the for front. Dont know how any neutral person can argue that the WC final was more pressure than the semi-final aganst Pakistan where some fans died and the atmosphere was unlike any other seen. You are just not being honest with yourself

Think this post should settle it. ALL such discussions about yesteryear greats is done with one agenda - Glorify Sachin. Nothing more nothing less. Its odd what fanaticism can do to grown men. xxx

[vvvslaxman]

Barring the freak Muralitharan ... no slow bowler has sub 23 bowling avg in modern day cricket. Such averages are almost exclusively limited to fast bowlers so speed is a major factor. Yes it doesn't automatically translate into wkts and sub 23 avg but without it you will never get anywhere close to that category in modern times unless you are a freak like MuMu. If you disagree with this it means our understanding of cricket is diametrically opposite and hence the reason why we have such drastically different takes on simple things.

That emphasizes nothing but how difficult to bat on uncovered wickets. On a slightly spinning pitch, which was not even demonic Tendulkar was dancing all over against Afridi. Afridi by no means is a great test match bowler. Iqbal qasim/Tausif both of them are not exactly all time greats. They were just absolutely unplayable at Bangalore much like Hirwani was at chennai.

[CSK Fan]

Think this post should settle it. ALL such discussions about yesteryear greats is done with one agenda - Glorify Sachin. Nothing more nothing less. Its odd what fanaticism can do to grown men. xxx

Lurekr, I have nothing but respect for you and Outsider. Your opinions defer from mine and we might not agree to most things whcih is fine. I also do have immense respect for the way you stick up to the legends like Kapil and Gavaskar whom you are fan of. I dont believe I have ever responded rudely to the posts of either of you On the other hand, I cannot stand oppurtunistic people who have a one point agenda, to bring down Sachin a few notches. IMO, the minute someone starts looking at part of a player instead of the whole, start looking at bits of pieces (strike rate, crunch etc) and use their own made up defnitions and criterias (pressure, when most needed, etc) you are being dishonest with yourself. There are a 100 such things which form a part of batting, and no batsman can top in all 100. However, the better batsman is one who stands out in most Some Pakistani fans have very successfully used similar selective stats and defnitions to succesfully prove that Inzamam was a much better batsman than Laxman, Dravid and Sachin combined. And I dont know why that cannot be true if everything we say in this thread about Sachin is true, after all they are using the same logic None of these have to do with the original topic in contention of course. Dunno if you have noticed, have never claimed Sachin is better than the Don

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[vvvslaxman]

If uncovered wkts are so demonic as you try to make them be ... you wouldnt see team scores in excess of 250 ... the wkts in Bradmans time are widely acknowledged to be predominantly batting friendly.

How do they average so low then

[Ultimate_Game]

U_G will pick other players over Sachin? What a surprsie. dude, if it was upto you, you will pick Misbah over Sachin and would love to see Sachin retire in disgrace. Sachin has one of the best records in finals out of any Indian ODI batsmen. Yes, he failed in two world cup finals but two is IMO not enough of a sample. In 2003, we were chasing 350+. In 2011, Sachin was way past it. In fact Sachin has played better innings in finals than both Gambhir and Dhoni Of course we are talking about complete ODI career of Sachin. Remember we are talking about Sachin of the 90s. You are letting Sachin's current form and your obvious aversion of him cloud your judgement As for tests, if you are talking of 2nd innings (3+4 as opposed to 4th innings) then Sachin has been as good as Laxman. If you have are talking of 4th innings, Sachin is behind Laxman but not by far But then we have had these discussions with people like you so many times in the past that its simply not worth it anymore. Sachin had rubbed a lot of guys faces in the dirt in 2009 and the next two years. As soon as he fails, once again the made up arguments of pressure situations, etc come to the for front. Dont know how any neutral person can argue that the WC final was more pressure than the semi-final aganst Pakistan where some fans died and the atmosphere was unlike any other seen. You are just not being honest with yourself

Maybe SRT should continue playing forever and never be dropped from the Indian team. After all what does the team matter to folks like My Two Cents when they can see SRT notch 100th ton. As for sample sizes in the WC finals, you don't get a sample size of 8-10. You are lucky to get even 2 cracks at it and in those 2 SRT has managed to score a grand total of 20 odd runs. He's the only ATG with such a poor record in the WC finals and you can't change the fact. He may be a god to you but for me he was a pretty good player in his prime but over the hill now.

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[Crookbond]

Lurekr, I have nothing but respect for you and Outsider. Your opinions defer from mine and we might not agree to most things whcih is fine. I also do have immense respect for the way you stick up to the legends like Kapil and Gavaskar whom you are fan of. I dont believe I have ever responded rudely to the posts of either of you On the other hand, I cannot stand oppurtunistic people who have a one point agenda, to bring down Sachin a few notches. IMO, the minute someone starts looking at part of a player instead of the whole, start looking at bits of pieces (strike rate, crunch etc) and use their own made up defnitions and criterias (pressure, when most needed, etc) you are being dishonest with yourself. There are a 100 such things which form a part of batting, and no batsman can top in all 100. However, the better batsman is one who stands out in most Some Pakistani fans have very successfully used similar selective stats and defnitions to succesfully prove that Inzamam was a much better batsman than Laxman, Dravid and Sachin combined. And I dont know why that cannot be true if everything we say in this thread about Sachin is true, after all they are using the same logic None of these have to do with the original topic in contention of course. Dunno if you have noticed, have never claimed Sachin is better than the Don

Thanks MTC. In the original thread too (on Trumper), none of us claimed either DB, JB, VT or SRT are better than each other. Some of us, including Lurker, have repeatedly suggested that choosing a GOAT is a futile exercise. But, few folks just don't want it to let go by picking up on minor phrases and post vitriolic comments (please refer the thread on Trumper) . Personally, I am all for the "agree to disagree" paradigm although some other posters want everyone to love them (quite evident on other threads too) and pick their favorites. I get your point on Paki trolls and we will get to them ( turn the tables) when needed but most certainly this thread was just about home-bred fundamentalism.