gorah_pindu Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 Some people suggest that there are two types of civilization: 1). Regionally bound (i.e. India, China, Japan) 2). Religiously bound (i.e. Islam, Christianity, Judaism) Although this is obiously a gross generalization that dosent reflect human diversity, and I personally dont believe in it, let me play devil's advocate. It seems to me that India would retain its 'Indianess' if the country was majority atheist. Nobody would change their names to Christoper or Mohammed. Nobody would feverishly erect spires or minarets across every city. They would probably even favour the secular-friendly aspects of dharmic philosophy, to the uncompromising monotheism of Abrahamic religion, (as people like Veer Savarkar, the atheist founder of 'Hindutva' seems to have). It also seems to me that militant Abrahamic religion would have a hard time converting a single strong atheist, and would be vulnerable to scientific education, liberal entertainment, and common law. And finally of course, India is no stranger to atheism, with its own 2600 year old system - Carvaka/Lokayata. A self-described atheist, Savarkar regards being Hindu as a cultural and political identity. While often stressing social and community unity between Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists and Jains, Savarkar's notions of loyalty to the fatherland are seen as an implicit criticism of Muslims and Christians, who regard Mecca, Medina and Jerusalem as their holiest places. Savarkar openly assailed what he saw as Muslim political separatism, arguing that the loyalty of many Muslims was conflicted.So, if you fear the growth rate of Abrahamic religion, and believe they have a unique tendancy toward inescapable nationalistic dogma (as people in the 'nationalist myths' thread indicated) - would it not be better to promote atheism in India? Would this not in the long run be better than alienating the generation of free thinkers and consumers that economic development will inevitably create, by giving Hinudism all the charecteristics from western religion that drove so many people away from Christianity in Europe and North America? Is it not better to ally with the progressive elements of Indian society who pose the most threat to Muslim and Christian militancy through their growing liberalism and trend toward science? Hypothetically speaking, would you object to an India of majority atheists? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gator Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 yes... it will bother me... india and hinduism have been tied together since time immemorial... even before westerners started writing history.... even before all these prophets and messiahs were born.... unlike other religions, our religion is our culture, our way of living, way of thinking.... it defines us.... hinduism not only defines hindus, it defines everything indian.... indian muslims are markedly different from muslims from other countries.... they have a lot of hinduism in them without their awareness.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THX_1138 Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 let me be the first to say this... atheism is not the end all solution to all our problems. vice and greed are not mutually exclusive of religion but are infact independent. i.e. as long as human desires are not alturistic, the presence of religion neither abates nor does it mitigate suffering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 Okay I don't mean to hijack this thread, and I do think this may actually help this discussion, but I have a question, to both religious and non-religious people. Simple straight forward question. Why are you religious/non-religious? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ram Posted July 27, 2007 Share Posted July 27, 2007 Why are you religious/non-religious? I am religious ( not in the exact sense) because I think my belief in the presence of God/Destiny gives me a sense of security. I believe in fairness and in that fact that people always get what they deserve and there is a supernatural strength that oversees all of this. I derive strength from the presence of God during tough times. I say to myself that i need to do what i have to do and God will take of the rest and that helps in removing a lot of fear and insecurities in me and helps me a lead a peaceful/happy/care-free life. Once you know that life and the events that shape it arent in your control , then nothing really bothers you. You can reconcile to things quicker and hence lead a less stressful life. But for my belief/fear over the presence of a force stronger than me , i think i would probably do more bad things than i do now. Ofcourse , what i mean by bad is open to debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gorah_pindu Posted July 28, 2007 Author Share Posted July 28, 2007 Interesting comments so far. @gator - a lot of people would argue that India's history is not quite as singular as that. I held your view for years, and went to great lenghts to promote it, but upon later examination found that the alterate view was equally as compelling at least, once I had examined the reasoning and evidence in more detail. @THX - I agree, but im not really trying to argue that the world would be better off without religion, just asking whether people would mind India becoming atheist, and also whether those who fear Abrahamic religion think atheism or Hindutva will better stand up to the 'onslaught'. @Lurker - the chances of the supernatural existing are low, and the chances of the supernatural being anything like one of this planet's mythologies is lower still, so for practical purposes im an atheist, but because a sceptic can never dismiss even the most remote possibility, im an agnostic for philosophical purposes. I also of course have sympathies for dharmic philosophy, as ive mentioned elsewhere. @marirs - it also comforts me to know things are out of my hands sometimes, it sounds like you and I just attribute this power to different things, i.e. the supernatural and the natural. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THX_1138 Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 see here is what i figure... behind all religious conflict, there is economics. economics that provoked muslims and hindus to fight since the later, when in power looked to consolidate their power and regress a social economic imbalance, and such a social movement was opposed by hindus since at heart, we are all friedmans (even i, a self admitted keynesian, am indeed a friedman, as i discovered when i felt my father's business threatened by government imposed regulatory measures). a similar argument exists in the middle east, where the economically backward palestinians are seeking to improve their situation... etc etc. of course this argument is better presented by a student of history which i am not. hence, i believe if we did away with religion, we might be spared some of the shingles of the politians such as a dumb raath yatra or the persistence to save a mosque with the attendance of less than the local brothel... etc etc. but yeah if you are suggesting that instead of athetists, if india became a lot more liberal i.e. tolerant as time progressed, i really dont see a draw back to that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THX_1138 Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 and yeah... i think once you progress towards atheism usually inspired by greater scientific knowledge and understanding, the friviliousity and self contradiction of all the abrahamic faiths, with the exception of judaism are rather self evident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feverpitch Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 Atheism is the religion of the Darwinians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 Thanks for all your inputs thus far. Here is my take on religion. I think people become religious for a lot of reason, one of which is family. If I have to take a guess I will say people are more religious because of family rather than for their own self. Look at it this way. If you pray to God how often do you wish for something for yourself? There is a good chance you would atleast wish as many times for your family if not more. In Hinduism the ladies keep fast for their husbands, their kids etc but rarely for themselves. One another aspect of this is the sheer lack of knowledge of after-life and what happens after death. Think it like this. Think of the most loved person you know(and I am sorry to say this) and imagine your life without him/her. Isnt it fundamentally very sacry to realize once we die, we are burnt or buried, we are not going to have any contacts with that person we loved? With our family? It broods a very depressing thought of life where nothing means anything then, doesnt it? This is where religion helps a lot of people. If you do good you can not only help your afterlife but also that of your family and once you leave this world you can see them in the next. I hope that all made sense. xxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THX_1138 Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 Atheism is the religion of the Darwinians. dude please... dont regurgitate talking points that you are fed elsewhere. we are not talking about the merits of atheism as a spiritual vehicle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feverpitch Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 dude please... dont regurgitate talking points that you are fed elsewhere. we are not talking about the merits of atheism as a spiritual vehicle. Doodh, Do you mean you came up with the atheism as a spiritual vehicle line? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gator Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 a simple question... people here spend tons of time, energy arguing furiously and defending slurs on whom they believe are their heroes on the cricketing field... i dont need my family(they showed me the way, thanks), nor circumstances, nor problems to compel me to argue for God who according to me, is the greatest hero... the power is jus overbearing tht our mind cannot even begin to realise the greatness of his creation... i have heard a lot of dumb science bs..... the stoopid scientists think, if they can explain a phenomenon then it means, it is science.... i have a dog... i also have a kinda dog toy where i used to put a small biscuit and it is difficult for him to get at tht biscuit....the aim was to keep him occupied... but after a month, he figured out the technique.... he can now get it in 10 mins... but it cant think, tht jus cos it cracked tht problem, myself or some other human didnt create it... thts how stoopid, these scientists are.. 2000 yrs to crack the secret behind few phenomenon and lo, discredit the creator..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CC1981 Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 let me be the first to say this... atheism is not the end all solution to all our problems. vice and greed are not mutually exclusive of religion but are infact independent. i.e. as long as human desires are not alturistic' date=' the presence of religion neither abates nor does it mitigate suffering.[/quote'] Spot on. It isnt about belief in a higher entity or how that entity is- its about humanity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CC1981 Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 Atheism is the religion of the Darwinians. Technically speaking, Buddhists are atheists too (and in reality, even though many Buddhists worship the Buddha, there are many who consider themselves atheists). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THX_1138 Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 Doodh, Do you mean you came up with the atheism as a spiritual vehicle line? no one did. atheism is not something you can bunch together. there are different thoughts under atheism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feverpitch Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 no one did. atheism is not something you can bunch together. there are different thoughts under atheism. the paths might be many, the goal is the same Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaurav Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 Oh no! Not god walli discussion again :yay: I was watching CNN yesterday and they were talking about this case were two cornholios broke into a family house... beat the husband with a baseball bat and then sexually assaulted his wife and two teenage daughters for 6+ hours. Then they set the house on fire. Both the daughters + wife are dead but the husband survived. Now the dead wife's father was saying that the attack was so brutal that "God is crying with us". It amazes me how people can say that :-O So god prefers to cry instead of preventing such acts???? Bottom line is that people hold on to the concept of god as it makes them mask the harsh reality of this life. God can kiss my ass and shove it :yay: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THX_1138 Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 the paths might be many' date=' the goal is the same[/quote']not really. atheism does not have a bloody goal... it believes in "humanity" i.e. doing good for the sheer reward of the act. now you can find motivation through different means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CC1981 Posted July 28, 2007 Share Posted July 28, 2007 two cornholios Err..two what ? It amazes me how people can say that :-O So god prefers to cry instead of preventing such acts???? Who knows- who cares. IT is all to do with the concept of God or Gods and what we percieve them to be. Maybe to this God dood we are about as significant as one sole hair cell on one hair on our a$$. I'd think that too if 'my creation' was zillions of stars & galaxies and humanity was one species, stuck orbiting one rock around one star. Point is, it is irrelevant- what God did/does/doesnt do has very little cause for us to think about since at this stage, whether God(s) even exists or not isnt completely proven without a shadow of doubt. Bottom line is that people hold on to the concept of god as it makes them mask the harsh reality of this life. Yes. That indeed is the bottomline- western religions ( Islam, Judaism, christianity) are essentially religion of the scared ones- it fundamentally relies on a 'do this through life---> get rewarded at the end, do this through life---> get f*cked in the end' sort of dogmatic ideas. I dunno about you folks but i worked my butt off in class X hindi literature because i was scared i'd fail my ICSE...the fear of the future (incase this happens) is a good enough motivation for us to 'do it anyways' and western religions just take it a few steps into total stupidity. Pity most people do not realize this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts