Judge Tendulkar by today's standards

[King Tendulkar]

This ugly b@stard for one;

:hysterical:

[King Tendulkar]

Why does no one put stats for sachins post wc form? I am interested to know them

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[Bumper]

Justifying Tendulkar's place in the team, as an all time great, has no merits. The reasoning u'd use to pick him over youngsters is his match winning potential (that youngsters dont bring to the table). But Sachin even at his peak, was not the greatest of match winners and at this fag end of his career, is nothing more than a burden on this team. His 91 may have saved his a$$ for this series & it wont be appropriate to drop him now. But if he chokes against Pakistan & Australia in the next two series, he must go. Replace him with youngsters (Yuvraj or Badri or Rao). Even if the youngsters dont produce any better results, atleast it will help their learning curve. And comparing Tendu with Viv & SMG is a joke. Viv & SMG were still potent match winners in their last 5 years. The other day i posted Viv's stats in his last 5 years against the 3 best teams of his era. Viv had close to 20 50s and 5 100s or some such stat. And last i couldnt care if Lara sucked even more during a lean patch in his career. First of all Lara doesnt play for my team and second, it reflects the poverty in the WI batting lineup and third, after that lean trot, Lara bounced back with a bang. He slayed the Lankans in the 2001 tour like only he could. Does anyone seriously think Tendu will ever have a dominant test series with the bat in the near future ? Instead of using Lara as an example, why not use Mark Waugh as an example. Was he an Aussie alltime great ? Yes. Was he struggling in his last year ? Yes. Was he booted out, without even an opportunity to gracefully retire ? Yes. Did it hurt Australian cricket ? No. So for every Lara who wasnt dropped, there is a Mark Waugh who was dropped & it had the right effect.

[Anakin]

Yeah averaging 65 odd in won matches doesn't make one a matchwinner batsman. MW was a great batsman, but not in the class of Laura or SRT. And of course every series has to be a do or die series for SRT, at least to some idiots ie.

[Chaos]

Omg, Hate or Love Tendulkar, We all cant LIVE without HIM. Already 5 pages, come people make it 100!

[Bumper]

Yeah averaging 65 odd in won matches doesn't make one a matchwinner batsman. MW was a great batsman' date= but not in the class of Laura or SRT. And of course every series has to be a do or die series for SRT, at least to some idiots ie.

Did u take out BD ? :haha: Since 2003 Tendu averages 65.66 in the 14 tests won if u include Bangladesh. Exclude BD, u will see his average fall to a pathetic 37. There goes the match winner theory :haha:

[Bumper]

And since 2005, in the 6 games won, excluding BD, Tendu averages 35 So even stats cannot save his a$$. He must start scoring runs and win games for India to continue to play ahead of youngsters

[Ram]

Instead of using Lara as an example, why not use Mark Waugh as an example. Was he an Aussie alltime great ? Yes. Was he struggling in his last year ? Yes. Was he booted out, without even an opportunity to gracefully retire ? Yes. Did it hurt Australian cricket ? No. So for every Lara who wasnt dropped, there is a Mark Waugh who was dropped & it had the right effect.

And that was because , with or without Mark Waugh , the Aussie team is still good. The Indian batting is ridiculously fragile without Sachin. Hope you remember the ODI match against SA in Ireland , were the batting fell like nine pins after he got out. Instead of blaming Sachin for all the ills of Indian cricket , we would be well advised to go search for a some good match winning bowlers.

[Anakin]

Once again, playing with numbers since his worst slump, but of course that's the only thing that supports such delusion. And once freaking again, even with 0 or -1 avg or whatever, he's been featuring regularly in every win recently, so go ahead, stick to just numbers without much significance or understanding.

[Anakin]

And that was because , with or without Mark Waugh , the Aussie team is still good. The Indian batting is ridiculously fragile without Sachin. Hope you remember the ODI match against SA in Ireland , were the batting fell like nine pins after he got out. Instead of blaming Sachin for all the ills of Indian cricket , we would be well advised to go search for a some good match winning bowlers.

Even with so many other bigger matchwinners, Ind sucked in 99 and this WC, and guess who didn't do well in those cups.

[Bumper]

And that was because ' date=' with or without Mark Waugh , the Aussie team is still good. [b']The Indian batting is ridiculously fragile without Sachin. Hope you remember the ODI match against SA in Ireland , were the batting fell like nine pins after he got out.

Support it with stats. And who is talking about ODIs here ? The topic is on tests. Lets stick to it.

Instead of blaming Sachin for all the ills of Indian cricket , we would be well advised to go search for a some good match winning bowlers.

Duh! Wrong on two counts: 1) Our so called, lame a$$ bowlers, have consistently bowled sides out twice in the last year (start from the Ind-Eng series in 2006 and look at each score card). Its our batsmen who have pooped in the meantime (led by Sachin Tendulkar), failing to convert those opportunities into victories. 2) No one is blaming Sachin for India's ills. Rather we are pointing to facts in the form of statistics, which establishes a clear causality between his no-show and India's ills

[Bumper]

Once again' date=' playing with numbers since his worst slump, but of course that's the only thing that supports such delusion. And once freaking again, even with 0 or -1 avg or whatever, he's been featuring regularly in every win recently, so go ahead, stick to just numbers without much significance or understanding.[/quote'] Heard of circular reasoning ? You are a master at it, Anakin :haha: First u refute the claim that Tendu is not a match winner by citing numbers. When i busted that myth with numbers in the last 5 years (mind u not one or two series, but several spanning 5 years), u fret about the same numbers, pointing to his worst slump.

even with 0 or -1 avg or whatever, he's been featuring regularly in every win recently, so go ahead, stick to just numbers without much significance or understanding

Could u kindly elucidate for this innocent soul what u mean by featuring regularly in wins with an average of 0 or -1 ? And kindly help clear my misunderstanding. I'd consider myself blessed :haha:

[Ram]

Support it with stats. And who is talking about ODIs here ? The topic is on tests. Lets stick to it

How can you quantify solidity of a batsman with stats ? Ok , Lets take this way. Name one Indian batsman apart from Rahul Dravid , whom you think has the technique and compactness to survive swinging conditions against the new ball ?

Duh! Wrong on two counts: 1) Our so called, lame a$$ bowlers, have consistently bowled sides out twice in the last year (start from the Ind-Eng series in 2006 and look at each score card). Its our batsmen who have pooped in the meantime (led by Sachin Tendulkar), failing to convert those opportunities into victories.

And so , what do we take out of that ? Did Sachin alone fail ? what about the other batsman then ? The period you are talking about , Sachin was out of form , as would many batsman be. In 2007 , apart from the world cup , he has been in outstanding form and saved our ass many times , be it the ODI against West Indies , Tests against Bangladesh , the series against South Africa or this English series ( and dont forget the Tour match against Chelmsford eleven) But for his batting , we would have been all out for 180 , not the ideal start to a test series.

2) No one is blaming Sachin for India's ills. Rather we are pointing to facts in the form of statistics, which establishes a clear causality between his no-show and India's ills

Sachin has played a massive role in a test series victory , a significant role in securing the lead in another one , and man of the series in two ODI series this year. Dont bring archaic stats to support your claim,.

[Predator_05]

He slayed the Lankans in the 2001 tour like only he could.

How many of those matches did WI win ? You really need to get over this "match-winner" bullsh*t. Batsmen don't win Test matches - bowlers do.

[Lurker]

So you want SRT to retire now because he started 5 yrs early and had played the same amount of cricket as Viv ? Yeh acccha logic hai ...

Huh? Where did I even bring Sachin's age in question? You are the one who brought Viv's age in question mate so dont attribute things to me which I have not even suggested. My argument has all along been that Sachin has failed in last few series, to the extend that if you go back to the past 7 series or so(not sure how many more lives this cat needs!), he has scored at a fantabulous 32. That is the reason why he should be dropped. Don't blame me when you bring someone else's(Viv) age in question and then are showed quickly that Sachin has played lot more cricket(18 plus test and 200 plus LOI) in about the same time as Viv did. So guess who should retire!

There is no option for you to agree or not ... the facts in the form of video recordings are there for you to see in the form of beating a 21 yr old in a sprint to the boundary and he doesnt shy away from fielding in the deep ... and that he plays heck of a lot of more cricket than Viv did.

What a ridiculous assessment BB. The fact is this. SRT has always been a safe fielder at best, someone who is capable of taking good catches but hardly a player who is recignized as amongst the best fielders in the world. On the other hand Viv was one of the greatest fielders of all time, if not the best. So your argument is ridiculous. You are also missing a point very conviniently. That at the end both Viv and SRT are in the team for their batting. Batting is their USP and lets not make any mistakes about that. Based on their batting please do feel free to show how Viv comes second best to Sachin. Thus far Sachin clearly lacks behind Viv, even though you went all the way to 50 Tests or so back.

Nope no goal post moving. you said Vivs drop was ONLY x.x from y.yy and hence my comments.

Again you are attributing something to me that YOU yourself started. Did you not start that whole post about the "drop" in batting average of Sachin and Viv and how Sachin's drop is lot less than Viv's. Upon me showing that if you exclude the minnows(read BD/Zim) the drop by Sachin is LOT more than that by Viv you have now resorted to another tune now. This is goal post moving plain and simple.

Can you show me some people that averaged more than him and scored as many as him between 1990 and 2001 ? (his first half)

Again a question that has so Sir or pair. Where have I suggested anything against Sachin of 90s? Lets get this straight once and for all. Sachin of 90s is not in question here. Sachin of today, or shall we say Sachin of past 2 years, is on trial year. And I am certainly not going to be supportive of a batsman that avregaes 32 in his last 7 series. xxx

[Anakin]

Coming from you I'll take that as a compliment. You know very well that during that period SRT didn't play regularly and was in and out of the team with injuries (which by the way make that 4-5 year period long only when taken without context, at which you're very inept), but of course all you care about is numbers, not the context. As I already pointed out lurker's post about 7-8 serieses, about 4 serieses SRT played significant role in the sole wins. And we're talking about the worst phase of his career. The avg of 0 was just a mockery of your penchant for numbers, but the joke gets lost when explained, so sorry for that. Please feel free to add few more smilies and keep crunching numbers without context or understanding rather blind faith, hatred or whatever. You're a master at that well.

[Bumper]

How many of those matches did WI win ? You really need to get over this "match-winner" bullsh*t. .

If WI had a spinner as capable as Kumble they'd have won. Besides, I dont know how thats relevant to India's chances of winning tests ? And eggjactly what is the justification for picking an ageing senior with history over a youngster besides his so-called match winning ability ?

Batsmen don't win Test matches - bowlers do

Ah yes that explains how we gifted atleast the following series: Ind-Pak Bangalore Ind-SA Durban Ind-Eng Mumbai Ind-WI Antigua (chasing 120) On yeah, batsmen do LOSE it big time!

[Bumper]

How can you quantify solidity of a batsman with stats ? Ok , Lets take this way. Name one Indian batsman apart from Rahul Dravid , whom you think has the technique and compactness to survive swinging conditions against the new ball ?

Technique is grossly overrated. Exactly who saved our a$$es in the recently concluded Lords test. The technically savvy Dravid/Tendulkar or the ungainly, yet gritty Dhoni ? Every aspect of batting must eventually translate to cold numbers. Otherwise the so-called technique is just an excuse to secure a place in the team. Talking of technique, show me a couple of gritty knocks of Tendu (a la Dravid's twin 50s in the WI) in recent times, when every other top order batsmen has failed/struggled to score runs in the innings ? Then i will give consideration to your "technique" theory

And so , what do we take out of that ? Did Sachin alone fail ? what about the other batsman then ? The period you are talking about , Sachin was out of form , as would many batsman be. In 2007 , apart from the world cup ,

Ganguly was out of form, he was dropped for two years. He served his time & came back with a bang. He has scored in almost every test since his come back. Hence no more qns are being asked of his spot. Laxman, because of his indifferent form, has always been a borderline selection, frequently made a scape goat to accomodate Yuvraj. Sehwag, based on his lack of form in ONE SERIES, was dumped from the test squad. So that leaves us with Jaffer & Dravid. Both deserve a longer rope for obvious reasons & both have scored runs in the last year. Sachin is the only batsman who has not yet been held accountable for his failures.

he has been in outstanding form and saved our ass many times , be it the ODI against West Indies , Tests against Bangladesh , the series against South Africa or this English series ( and dont forget the Tour match against Chelmsford eleven) But for his batting , we would have been all out for 180 , not the ideal start to a test series.

U are mixing too many things. Can we pls keep it to tests here ? And lets exlcude the Tendu's favorite whipping boys, Bangladesh from the equation.

Sachin has played a massive role in a test series victory , a significant role in securing the lead in another one , and man of the series in two ODI series this year. Dont bring archaic stats to support your claim,.

Tests only pls. And exclude Bangaldesh! See what u are left with!

[Predator_05]

If WI had a spinner as capable as Kumble they'd have won. Besides, I dont know how thats relevant to India's chances of winning tests ? And eggjactly what is the justification for picking an ageing senior with history over a youngster besides his so-called match winning ability ?

I have said a million times that Tendulakr should be dropped from the Test side. Don't bore me with these statements. IF this and IF that, blah blah blah. IF the Indian tail hadn't crumbled with 12 runs needed to win at Chennai, they'd have won. So how hypocritical you are, happy to bring up IFs for Lara but laughing at them when someone brings them up for Tendulkar. I was just picking up on the hypocrisy of your statement. You always talk about "match-winning" batsmen, yet bring up a few innings by Lara which didn't win anything. I find that awkward. PS, you do know that Lara has lost more matches than Tendulkar ever will ?

Ah yes that explains how we gifted atleast the following series:

Ind-Pak Bangalore Ind-SA Durban Ind-Eng Mumbai Ind-WI Antigua (chasing 120) On yeah, batsmen do LOSE it big time!