Judge Tendulkar by today's standards

[Ram]

Technique is grossly overrated. Exactly who saved our a$$es in the recently concluded Lords test. The technically savvy Dravid/Tendulkar or the ungainly' date=' yet gritty Dhoni ? Every aspect of batting must eventually translate to cold numbers. Otherwise the so-called technique is just an excuse to secure a place in the team.[/quote'] And who weathered the storm on the morning of the third day of the second test to set up a crucial platform for the team's first innings lead. And why should every aspect of technique translate into cold numbers ? Akash Chopra and Sanjay Bangar dont have stats to back them , but who can deny the roles they played in some of India's best victories.

Talking of technique, show me a couple of gritty knocks of Tendu (a la Dravid's twin 50s in the WI) in recent times, when every other batsmen has failed/struggled to score runs in the innings ? Then i will give consideration to your "technique" theory

I dont know why you totally refuse to talk about One day cricket. His 93 against South Africa against good bowling , on a pitch where none of the other batsman looked comfortable is ample proof of his technical prowess

So that leaves us with Jaffer & Dravid. Both deserve a longer rope for obvious reasons & both have scores runs in the last year. Sachin is the only batsman who has not yet been held accountable for his failures.

Sachin has NEVER so ridiculously out of form as a Sehwag or Ganguly has been. That is the reason he has never been dropped. Even when he played badly , he hasnt been the worst performing batsman in the team.

U are mixing too many things. Can we pls keep it to tests here ? And lets exlcude the Tendu's favorite whipping boys, Bangladesh from the equation. Tests only pls. And exclude Bangaldesh! See what u are left with!

I talked BD because , those are the only tests we have played this year. Besides , he has been India's leading scorer in the English series too. I back to him finish as the top scorer of the series. Lets see where your claims go then. In all forms of cricket , Sachin has been India's leading run scorer in 2007. It will be insane to drop him now.

[Bumper]

I have said a million times that Tendulakr should be dropped from the Test side. Don't bore me with these statements. IF this and IF that, blah blah blah. IF the Indian tail hadn't crumbled with 12 runs needed to win at Chennai, they'd have won. So how hypocritical you are, happy to bring up IFs for Lara but laughing at them when someone brings them up for Tendulkar. I was just picking up on the hypocrisy of your statement. You always talk about "match-winning" batsmen, yet bring up a few innings by Lara which didn't win anything. I find that awkward. PS, you do know that Lara has lost more matches than Tendulkar ever will ?

You obviously have an axe to grind here. You pick up statements i made elsewhere in diff context & bring them up in a totally unrelated context like this. I dont know exactly what your point is. This is my initial post on this thread about Lara. Feel free to read it over & over again, until u geddit. Exactly where did i say Lara is a match winner here ?

And last i couldnt care if Lara sucked even more during a lean patch in his career. First of all Lara doesnt play for my team and second, it reflects the poverty in the WI batting lineup and third, after that lean trot, Lara bounced back with a bang. He slayed the Lankans in the 2001 tour like only he could. Does anyone seriously think Tendu will ever have a dominant test series with the bat in the near future ?

I have merely attempted to provide a rebuttal to those quoting Lara's lean run of form to justify picking Tendu.

20 wickets for low totals are what win a game, not millions and millions of runs.

Yeah right, am just 8 years od, started following cricket yesterday, i didnt know that 20 wickets were required to win a game:haha: Thanks for the lesson!

Rubbish. Indian batsmen have scored tons of runs on tours to England, West Indies, and Australia (ever noticed how high their averages are in those countries ?) but hardly ever won tests because the bowlers were never good enough. Bringing up a handful of 4th innings losses are pointless and don't change this fact. India didn't take 20 at Bangalore, India didn't take 20 wickets in Durban. Stop arguing the unarguable

Duh! What handful of tests ? Thats 4 test series i pointed out. And even a semblance of a fight in each one of those tests, would have seen us retain/win/save the series. Our bowlers have done their job in the last one year consistently, its our batsmen who have flunked!

[Bumper]

And who weathered the storm on the morning of the third day of the second test to set up a crucial platform for the team's first innings lead. And why should every aspect of technique translate into cold numbers ? Akash Chopra and Sanjay Bangar dont have stats to back them , but who can deny the roles they played in some of India's best victories.

Weathering the storm of SideBottom & Tremlett, when EVERY batsmen in the top order scored a 50. Is this your idea of technique ? :hysterical: I was hoping u'd quote a Dravidesque 50 when no top order batsmen could cross 50 from either side. Thats the kinda batting effort that justifies picking a batsman purely on technique.

I dont know why you totally refuse to talk about One day cricket. His 93 against South Africa against good bowling , on a pitch where none of the other batsman looked comfortable is ample proof of his technical prowess

Because u are arguing about a point i never contested. I think Tendu deserves a place in the ODI side, tho i dont think there is any point in him playing ODIs any longer, as his greatness as a ODI batsman is unquestionable.

Sachin has NEVER so ridiculously out of form as a Sehwag or Ganguly has been. That is the reason he has never been dropped. Even when he played badly , he hasnt been the worst performing batsman in the team.

Thanks for the laugh. Do this for me pls: For the period beginning 2005 Jan 01 to 2007 Jan 01, find out all our top order batsmen's averages. Tell me who shows up at the bottom :hysterical: (Exclude Ganguly from this computation as he did not play during this time)

I talked BD because , those are the only tests we have played this year. Besides , he has been India's leading scorer in the English series too. I back to him finish as the top scorer of the series. Lets see where your claims go then. In all forms of cricket , Sachin has been India's leading run scorer in 2007. It will be insane to drop him now.

I already acked that it would be stoopid to drop him after his 91. You dont drop a player who did well in his last innigs. However the issue of dropping him emerged long before this test & the arguments to keep him in the team have at best been unjustifiable.

[Predator_05]

You obviously have an axe to grind here.

...really ? over what ? You always say Lara is a match-winner and Tendulkar isn't. I say that judging by their records, and given how many matches Lara has lost in his career, you are wrong.

Duh! What handful of tests ? Thats 4 test series i pointed out. And even a semblance of a fight in each one of those tests' date=' would have seen us retain/win/save the series. Our bowlers have done their job in the last one year consistently, its our batsmen who have flunked![/quote'] You mentioned 4 matches, not 4 series ! DUH. ...and i love the way you say "our bowlers have done their job" - is that why Pakistan hacked 260 runs in 50 overs declared at Bangalore to set India a near impossible 4th innings total of 354 ? Is that why the South Africans were allowed to declare at Durban ? Indian bowlers had them 140/6 and allowed the last two pairs to add 150 runs. Who bears the reponsibility for that f*ck-up ? Tendulkar ? Was there even a "semblance of fight" shown on those two occasions by the Indian bowlers ? Do you have ANY idea how few times 350+ totals have been chased in the 4th innings ? Only SIX times in the history of cricket has a team ever chased 350+ to win a game. If the Indian bowlers were soooooo good, the Indian batsmen would NEVER have to chase ridiculous record-breaking 350+ totals in the 4th innings - now would they ?

[Ram]

Weathering the storm of SideBottom & Tremlett' date=' when EVERY batsmen in the top order scored a 50. Is this your idea of technique ? :hysterical: I was hoping u'd quote a Dravidesque 50 when no top order batsmen could cross 50 from either side. Thats the kinda batting effort that justifies picking a batsman purely on technique. [/quote'] The smiley doesnt take away Sachin's performance on the morning of third day. And it would be foolish to just dismiss the threat posed by Sidebottom and Tremlett in such conditions. And why not we take the game against the Chelmsford eleven then ? Surely you couldnt just ignore it as a tour game, simply because all other batsman peed in their pants on the opening day.

Because u are arguing about a point i never contested. I think Tendu deserves a place in the ODI side, tho i dont think there is any point in him playing ODIs any longer, as his greatness as a ODI batsman is unquestionable.

This is strange. What should stop a player from keep playing as long he thinks he can contribute to the team's victory. You calling for Sachin's removal from ODIs now surely shows one thing - You have personal grudge against him The contention that , since greatness is achieved and hence there is no need to play any more , can at best be termed ridiculous.

Thanks for the laugh. Do this for me pls: For the period beginning 2005 Jan 01 to 2007 Jan 01, find out all our batsmen's top order averages. Tell me who shows up at the bottom :hysterical: (Exclude Ganguly from this computation as he did not play during this time)

Batsman go through patches . So did Sachin. At various stages of their career , players like Mark Taylor , Jayawardene , Jayasuriuya went through period when they couldnt put bat to ball. There were persisted with knowing they would deliver soon and they did. Sachin was shown the same faith and has delivered too.

I already acked that it would be stoopid to drop him after his 91. You dont drop a player who did well in his last innigs. However the issue of dropping him emerged long before this test & the arguments to keep him in the team have at best been unjustifiable.

Not just this series. Sachin will fire in the future series too. I hope you remember this argument then. We shall have some more debating to do , in the not so distant future, I am sure.

[Bumper]

...really ? over what ? You always say Lara is a match-winner and Tendulkar isn't. I say that judging by their records, and given how many matches Lara has lost in his career, you are wrong.

Perhaps thats an impression u got from my posts ? Where did i say Lara is a match winner ? I infact think the opposite, just like Tendu he has failed as frequently when his side needed him. The only thing i would have said was that "Almost every all time great batsman has a 'classy' match winning innings." To support this i would have quoted, Dravid's 233, Lara's 153 etc. Now extrapolating Lara to be a match winner from this quote is utter nonsense.

You mentioned 4 matches, not 4 series ! DUH.

Each of those 4 games, cost us the series, DUH! I consider winning/saving a test series as BIGGER THAN winning/saving tests In each of the above scenario our batsmen MORE THAN our bowlers, cost us the game.

...and i love the way you say "our bowlers have done their job" -

Another classic misquote. "I said our bowlers have done their job in the LAST YEAR"

is that why Pakistan hacked 260 runs in 50 overs declared at Bangalore to set India a near impossible 4th innings total of 354 ?

So what if our bowlers conceded 260 runs in 50 overs. We had to bat exactly 6 more overs to save the test. You sound like u were thrilled to bits with our batting that day ?

Is that why the South Africans were allowed to declare at Durban ? Indian bowlers had them 140/6 and allowed the last two pairs to add 150 runs. Who bears the reponsibility for that f*ck-up ? Tendulkar ?

Boucher remarked on the eve of the last day, that the Saffies needed exactly 40 overs to bowl us out. And they did. Surely our bowlers lost us the test. If u keep arguing like that, we could exchange 1000 examples back & forth without going nowhere. In neither of your examples, i consider the odds were against the batsmen to save the test/series. It took an average batting performance to save the test. Why are we unfairly blaming the bowlers here. One test in recent memory that i consider the bowler's fault was Ind-Pak at Mohali'05, when Khatmal & Razzaq ran circles around our bowlers. That test should have been won by our bowlers.

[Predator_05]

I consider winning/saving a test series as BIGGER THAN winning/saving tests In each of the above scenario our batsmen MORE THAN our bowlers, cost us the game. So what if our bowlers have 260 runs in 50 overs. We had to bat exactly 6 more overs to save the test. You sound like u were thrilled to bits with our batting that day ?

Yeah, i was thrilled to bits seeing India lose to Pakistan. Right. So what if our bowlers have 260 runs in 50 overs ? Oh my god... :haha::haha::haha: Did it ever occur to you that if they bowled a little better India wouldn't have had to chase an impossible 354 on a turning track to win the game ? Jeez ! Besides, how many times have you EVER seen a team concede 260 runs in 50 overs ? Were you "thrilled to bits" when Afridi hit a fifty off 30 balls ? That was bowling at it's sh*ttiest and it lost India the game

Boucher remarked on the eve of the last day, that the Saffies needed exactly 40 overs to bowl us out. And they did. Surely our bowlers lost us the test.

I don't give a sh*t what Boucher said. Mohamad Sammy said that the Kolkata test was in Pakistan's hand back in 2005. Cricketers are chronic bullsh*tters who play mind-games. ...and if you think the Indian bowlers didn't f*ck-up by letting SA OFF THE HOOK when they were 140/6, then i may as well not bother continuing this discussion. Had India bowled out SA for 200, the batsmen would have had a better chance to win on day 5

In neither of your examples, i consider the odds were against the batsmen to save the test/series. It took an average batting performance to save the test. Why are we unfairly blaming the bowlers here.

Wow. So chasing 350 on cracked 5th day pitches need average performances ? In this decade, on only SIX occasions has a team ever chased or drawn a test when the target was 350. So clearly, batting to save, let alone WIN a test when such a massive target is set for the 5th day takes a hell of a lot more than an "average batting performance". Again, this isn't a point you can argue. Notice how Australia have only ONCE chased 350+ to win a Test (IIRC that was vs PAK @ Hobart, someone correct me if i am wrong). Ever wondered why ? Because their bowlers ALWAYS take 20 wickets and never allow the opposition to set them impossible 350+ targets !

[Bumper]

Did it ever occur to you that if they bowled a little better India wouldn't have had to chase an impossible 354 on a turning track to win the game ? Jeez ! Besides, how many times have you EVER seen a team concede 260 runs in 50 overs ? Were you "thrilled to bits" when Afridi hit a fifty off 30 balls ? That was bowling at it's sh*ttiest and it lost India the game

Bangalore wasnt a helpful track. Sehwag & Gambhir almost batted out the whole morning session. Which left us with totally 9 wickets & two sessions. And our batters werent up against a Murali or a McGrath. It was Malcolm Sami, Kaneria & Afridi of all people who buried us. THIS WAS THE WORST PAKISTANI BOWLING LINEUP TO SET FOOT ON OUR SOIL. Its amazing u keep blaming the bowlers for not saving us the game. And 5 rpo in unhelpful conditions, when we were setting defensive fields to save runs in the second innings is a misleading example. IMO, the batsman more than the bowlers were at fault in not saving this test, whichever way u spin it.

I don't give a sh*t what Boucher said. Mohamad Sammy said that the Kolkata test was in Pakistan's hand back in 2005. Cricketers are chronic bullsh*tters who play mind-games. ...and if you think the Indian bowlers didn't f*ck-up by letting SA OFF THE HOOK when they were 140/6, then i may as well not bother continuing this discussion. Had India bowled out SA for 200, the batsmen would have had a better chance to win on day 5

The Indian bowlers surprised me with their showing in SA. I am not saying we did a perfect job. But our bowlers hit par, infact even surpassed their capabilities. A pace bowling lineup that read Zaheer, Sreesanth, VRV, hardly had much experience between them. They did outperform our star studded overhyped batting lineup of Sehwag, Dravid, Tendu, Ganguly, Laxman. The SA series was lost in two innings. Durban & Capetown 2nd innings. Both times, our batters fu.cked it up

Wow. So chasing 350 on cracked 5th day pitches need average performances ?

Who blamed our batsmen for not chasing 350 ? U make such comical assumptions & then make ludicrous arguments against things i never contested in the first place.:haha: All i was asking of our batsman was to bat out an already rain shoretened day (about 50-60 overs). Well, Dhoni almost did. But it was too little an effort too late. If we had saved that test match at Durban, we would have walked away from SA with our heads held high. That would have been the first time we would have come out of SA undefeated. That was history waiting to be made. We blew it!

In this decade, on only SIX occasions has a team ever chased or drawn a test when the target was 350. So clearly, batting to save, let alone WIN a test when such a massive target is set for the 5th day takes a hell of a lot more than an "average batting performance". Again, this isn't a point you can argue.

blah, blah, blah. Irrelevant!

[Bumper]

The smiley doesnt take away Sachin's performance on the morning of third day. And it would be foolish to just dismiss the threat posed by Sidebottom and Tremlett in such conditions. And why not we take the game against the Chelmsford eleven then ? Surely you couldnt just ignore it as a tour game, simply because all other batsman peed in their pants on the opening day.

Before you barge off track. It was your quote that "A technically sound batsman" like Tendulkar is a shoo-in to our batting lineup. I asked u to support this point with an example. A convincing example would show a gritty/classy 50 atleast, when batting conditions were so hostile that only a classy top order batsman like Tendulkar was able to make runs. The example u quoted only weakens your argument. In the innings u quote, every top order batsman except Dravid (including two rookie openers who faced tougher conditions than Tendulkar) scored fifties.

This is strange. What should stop a player from keep playing as long he thinks he can contribute to the team's victory. You calling for Sachin's removal from ODIs now surely shows one thing - You have personal grudge against him The contention that , since greatness is achieved and hence there is no need to play any more , can at best be termed ridiculous.

Not exactly. If Tendulkar were as fit as a Ponting or a Dravid i dont care even if he plays 20-20. He is a walking corpse, waiting to be injured at the next available opportunity. It would be foolish to keep playing ODIs, which dont have any significance to his career, any longer. OTOH, cutting short his ODI career, can help extend his test career, which is what he should be focussing on.

Batsman go through patches . So did Sachin. At various stages of their career , players like Mark Taylor , Jayawardene , Jayasuriuya went through period when they couldnt put bat to ball. There were persisted with knowing they would deliver soon and they did. Sachin was shown the same faith and has delivered too.

Taylor was a captain when he had a lean run. Jayasuriya was dropped when he had a bad run. I dont recall if Jayawardane was dropped, but SL cricket is none of my business.

Not just this series. Sachin will fire in the future series too. I hope you remember this argument then. We shall have some more debating to do , in the not so distant future, I am sure.

Have been waiting patiently for close to 3 years now....

[Ram]

Before you barge off track. It was your quote that "A technically sound batsman" like Tendulkar is a shoo-in to our batting lineup. I asked u to support this point with an example. A convincing example would show a gritty/classy 50 atleast' date=' when batting conditions were so hostile that only a classy top order batsman like Tendulkar was able to make runs.[/quote'] I think i did give two VALID examples. The second one dayer against South Africa and the warm up match against the English Lions. Surely you arent naive enough to dismiss them as just " one dayers and a tour match" simply because , in those very same conditions , batsman of both teams found it very hard to survive. Sachin's technique is amongst the best in the world . If at all anything has dropped , it is his concentration , leading to his dismissals after being set.

Not exactly. If Tendulkar were as fit as a Ponting or a Dravid i dont care even if he plays 20-20. He is a walking corpse, waiting to be injured at the next available opportunity. It would be foolish to keep playing ODIs, which dont have any significance to his career, any longer. OTOH, cutting short his ODI career, can help extend his test career, which is what he should be focussing on.

Dont you think you are contradicitng yourself to the point of self-embarrassment ? You first say Sachin should have been dropped from test matches and you are not open to debate on his contribution in one dayers , since you think he deserved his place. Then you go on to say, he must stop playing one dayers , so that he can extend his test career. I am bit lost here. And BTW , he is not a walking corpse by any stretch of imagination. His last 6 months of intnl cricket have been injury free. He has had some freakish injuries that have made look like being too injury prone.

Taylor was a captain when he had a lean run. Jayasuriya was dropped when he had a bad run. I dont recall if Jayawardane was dropped, but SL cricket is none of my business.

Jayasuriya suffered from two separate slumps in form. He was dropped in one of them and persisted with , in the other. He delivered later. So what if Taylor is captain ? It doesnt hide my point that , you need to give certain players more chance others coz you know they will deliver. And saying " SL is not my business" is like running away from the argument . We are talking cricketing logic here and it should not be restricted to the Indian context alone.

Have been waiting patiently for close to 3 years now....

And I believe you have started to get the answers in the last 6 months. Sachin has delivered in 2007 in EVERY series , except the world cup.

[Bumper]

I think i did give two VALID examples. The second one dayer against South Africa and the warm up match against the English Lions. Surely you arent naive enough to dismiss them as just " one dayers and a tour match" simply because , in those very same conditions , batsman of both teams found it very hard to survive. Sachin's technique is amongst the best in the world . If at all anything has dropped , it is his concentration , leading to his dismissals after being set.

VALID ? How are they valid ? I am asking for two test knocks under challenging conditions & u come up with an ODI & a club game. Infact your examples only bolster my point that, technique is overrated. Dhoni played a gritty knock in the most hostile conditions in Durban. He repeated the same at Lords. Shoaib Malik knocked a 4th innings test ton to save the game against the hostile Lankans in Lanka. None of these guys had a technique better than Sachin. Sachin with better technique hasnt played like that recently. And its no coincidence. Perhaps more than just technique is reqd to survive those hostile conditions ?

Dont you think you are contradicitng yourself to the point of self-embarrassment ? You first say Sachin should have been dropped from test matches and you are not open to debate on his contribution in one dayers , since you think he deserved his place. Then you go on to say, he must stop playing one dayers , so that he can extend his test career. I am bit lost here. And BTW , he is not a walking corpse by any stretch of imagination. His last 6 months of intnl cricket have been injury free. He has had some freakish injuries that have made look like being too injury prone.

How am i contradicting myself ? Claim-1: Sachin does not deserve a test spot based on his recent form Claim-2: There is hardly any point in Sachin playing ODIs as he has little left to prove and that the threat of an injury will hurt his test career. Claim-1 is based on Sachin's form and whats best for the team. Claim-2 is based on plain common sense and whats best for Sachin. Every player covets test records more than ODI records and thats what they should focus on at the fag end of their careers. Now am i claiming if Sachin stops playing ODI matches, we should let him play tests ? No. That would be a contradiction. And asking for someone to be dropped is to induce the hunger and anger in the player to deliver. Ask Ganguly. Very soon u can ask Sehwag too! All it takes is one BIG injury in a meaningless masala ODI & Tendu's career will be done. You'll see no more of him on the field.

Jayasuriya suffered from two separate slumps in form. He was dropped in one of them and persisted with , in the other. He delivered later. So what if Taylor is captain ? It doesnt hide my point that , you need to give certain players more chance others coz you know they will deliver. And saying " SL is not my business" is like running away from the argument . We are talking cricketing logic here and it should not be restricted to the Indian context alone.

If u cite Australia's example, then u better respond why Mark & Steve Waugh were dropped. As for Lanka, Jayasuriya was dropped on loss of form period. When Tendu is dropped we'll resume this argument. Pakistan is dropping Inzamaam when he is inform. Do i care ? Hell no. England continues to keep playing Michale Vaughan in their ODI lineup, despite his lack of form. Do i care ? No. I wish the worst for all cricket teams other than India :haha: Moral-1: Emulate & internalize good things from others. Moral-2: Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.

And I believe you have started to get the answers in the last 6 months. Sachin has delivered in 2007 in EVERY series , except the world cup.

An oversimplistic & misleading claim. In 2007 India has played 5 tests (3 vs Bangladesh) and 2 vs England. This is insufficient data to pass any judgement on him so far. No i wont include Bangaldesh!

[yoda]

Predator, in series when the bowlers had helped us secure a 1-0 lead, it is too much to ask the batsmen to fight it out on day 5 to just to force a draw or atleast show some semblence of fight? that is what bumper is talking about. we all have blasted our bats for our day 4&5 collapses which has nothing to do with the fact the bowlers have up a huge lead. we have typically collapsed not chasing huge totals, rather playing like pussies with tendulkar leading the way all the time.

[Predator_05]

Bangalore wasnt a helpful track. Sehwag & Gambhir almost batted out the whole morning session. Which left us with totally 9 wickets & two sessions. And our batters werent up against a Murali or a McGrath. It was Malcolm Sami' date=' Kaneria & Afridi of all people who buried us. [b']THIS WAS THE WORST PAKISTANI BOWLING LINEUP TO SET FOOT ON OUR SOIL. Its amazing u keep blaming the bowlers for not saving us the game. And 5 rpo in unhelpful conditions, when we were setting defensive fields to save runs in the second innings is a misleading example. IMO, the batsman more than the bowlers were at fault in not saving this test, whichever way u spin it.

So the Indian bowlers conceding 260 in 50 overs, and thereby allowing the P@kis to set a target fo 350 had ABSOLUTLEY NOTHING to do with it ? Whatever

The Indian bowlers surprised me with their showing in SA. I am not saying we did a perfect job. But our bowlers hit par, infact even surpassed their capabilities. A pace bowling lineup that read Zaheer, Sreesanth, VRV, hardly had much experience between them. They did outperform our star studded overhyped batting lineup of Sehwag, Dravid, Tendu, Ganguly, Laxman. The SA series was lost in two innings. Durban & Capetown 2nd innings. Both times, our batters fu.cked it up

India would have won at Durban had they chased some 50-70 runs less, but that was impossible after the Indian bowlers let SA off the hook when they were 140/6

All i was asking of our batsman was to bat out an already rain shoretened day (about 50-60 overs). Well, Dhoni almost did. But it was too little an effort too late. If we had saved that test match at Durban, we would have walked away from SA with our heads held high. That would have been the first time we would have come out of SA undefeated. That was history waiting to be made. We blew it! blah, blah, blah. Irrelevant!

It isn't. It goes out to show that TAKING WICKETS for low targets WINS TEST MATCHES. That is why the Aussies NEVER CHASE ridiculous 350 run targets - their bowlers are unstoppable in the third innings. If the Indian batsmen had to chase 200 run totals to win in the 4th innings, they WOULD WIN more matches. But that isn't possible because the Indian bowlers f*ck up all the time in the 3rd innings, like they did at Bangalore and Durban. The bowlers' performances in the 3rd innings determine the target will be set. If the target is out of reach, don't blame the batsmen. Try to be a little REALISITC - how can you expect the Indian batsmen to chase down 350+ totals or even draw matches when the targets are impossible to chase ? I keep bringing up the fact that HARDLY ANY teams manage to this (its only been done 6 times in the last 7 years), which just goes out to show how hard it is. It's too damn hard to win a match from that position, and the stats prove this. If you think the Indian batsmen chasing 350+ or batting out a day on a 5th day pitch needs an average performance, you are just kidding yourself.

[Guest BossBhai]

-- Removed on request of the user --

[Ram]

VALID ? How are they valid ? I am asking for two test knocks under challenging conditions & u come up with an ODI & a club game. Infact your examples only bolster my point that' date=' technique is overrated. Dhoni played a gritty knock in the most hostile conditions in Durban. He repeated the same at Lords. Shoaib Malik knocked a 4th innings test ton to save the game against the hostile Lankans in Lanka. None of these guys had a technique better than Sachin. Sachin with better technique hasnt played like that recently. And its no coincidence. Perhaps more than just technique is reqd to survive those hostile conditions ?[/quote'] I dont know why you wont take the examples i have quoted. After all , tough conditions are tough conditions , whether its a test match or a side game. sachin has shown twice, in the past one month that he is capable of handling hostile conditions better than his team mates.

How am i contradicting myself ? Claim-1: Sachin does not deserve a test spot based on his recent form Claim-2: There is hardly any point in Sachin playing ODIs as he has little left to prove and that the threat of an injury will hurt his test career. Claim-1 is based on Sachin's form and whats best for the team. Claim-2 is based on plain common sense and whats best for Sachin. Every player covets test records more than ODI records and thats what they should focus on at the fag end of their careers. Now am i claiming if Sachin stops playing ODI matches, we should let him play tests ? No. That would be a contradiction.

I simply dont understand what you mean by "recent" form, How recent is recent. This guy has scored 2 centuries and one ninety in his last 3 test match , 2 90's in the last 3 ODIs and a 171 in a first class match. He is the most prolific scorer of the team. You want him to be dropped ? Beats all logic have to say.

And asking for someone to be dropped is to induce the hunger and anger in the player to deliver. Ask Ganguly. Very soon u can ask Sehwag too!

Sachin has shown enough hunger and form after the world cup. You are just missing the obvious here.

All it takes is one BIG injury in a meaningless masala ODI & Tendu's career will be done. You'll see no more of him on the field.

Hehe.. International players off late frequently play till they are 36-37. Sachin has atleast 2 good years left in him for sure.

If u cite Australia's example, then u better respond why Mark & Steve Waugh were dropped. As for Lanka, Jayasuriya was dropped on loss of form period. When Tendu is dropped we'll resume this argument. Pakistan is dropping Inzamaam when he is inform. Do i care ? Hell no. England continues to keep playing Michale Vaughan in their ODI lineup, despite his lack of form. Do i care ? No. I wish the worst for all cricket teams other than India :haha: Moral-1: Emulate & internalize good things from others. Moral-2: Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.

Nice logic , but unfortunately such measures work only for a team called Australia. They are strong enough to let go off stars and still win. But not us. Players need leeway sometimes. Sachin was given that leeway and he has performed in the last six months .

An oversimplistic & misleading claim. In 2007 India has played 5 tests (3 vs Bangladesh) and 2 vs England. This is insufficient data to pass any judgement on him so far. No i wont include Bangaldesh!

There you go again with your " Bangladesh is crap again" . What else stats can we fall on , if we havent played any other test matches at all. You might not give importance to BD, but not the players. For them , each match is as important.

[CC1981]

All i have to say to this is that a batsman who's averaged below 40 in six of seven last series (minus easy runs ala bangladesh & zimbabwe) and is on course to make it seven of eight series averaging below 40, deserves to be dropped. Doesn't matter if he has 1000 or 20,000 runs behind his name. Eight series is a rope long enough. Tendy, barring a miracle in the third test, must be dropped and left to prove his worth in FC cricket for atleast a season before he is called back to the test team. Yes, he has had a great career and yes, he is an alltime great by career standards. But it doesnt deter from the fact that he is playing like a severely diminished, over the hill liability to the team. Mohammed Ali was the greatest boxer one's ever seen but even Ali was mediocre near the tail end of his career. Tendulkar simply is not 'good enough' anymore to be counted amongst good batsmen, let alone great on present standing. He's a geriatric by cricket standards- 18 years career and the longest-standing international cricketer . Tendulkar should bite the bullet and retire gracefully from the Test team or work his way up again.

[CC1981]

Some folks here have claimed that Tendulkar has doesn't deserve to be dropped and he's not done worse than others etc etc. All i gotto say to that is : Rubbish! Tendulkar DOES deserve to be dropped- he's gone six of last seven series vs decent opposition (ie, minus cheap runs & wickets from bangladesh & zimbabwe) with below 40 average and he's done worse than most. Here are the numbers for all players(arranged in descending order of average) from 1st Jan, 2005 till present, minus 'cheap runs' (ie, minus bangladesh & zimbabwe):

Name            M/I         NO      TRUNS       AVE        HS       C        F

R.DRAVID       21/36        5        1695      54.67       146      5        9
V.SEHWAG       19/34        1        1518      46.00       254      4        4
W.JAFFER       12/23        -         957      41.60       212      3        5
VVS.LAXMAN     19/33        5        1043      37.25       104      2        8
S.TENDULKAR    17/28        1         934      34.59       109      1        6
KKD.KARTHIK     8/13        1         413      34.41        93      -        4
S.GANGULY      12/20        2         572      31.77        79      -        3
M.DHONI        17/27        2         787      31.48       148      1        4

As we can see, Tendulkar indeed, is dispensable at this point in the test team- there are only two specialist batsmen with lower average than him in the current list and one of them ( Karthik) plays as an opener and calling him a specialist bat is a bit of a stretch so far. So that leaves only Ganguly. Now Ganguly has done nothing special either but atleast, his batting has improved a whole lot since he made his comeback and he's had 369 runs @ 46.12 in 5 matches with 3 fifties. So clearly, right now the first name on the drop- list from the middle order should be Tendulkar.

[Donny]

Interesting numbers for RD, Sandro. If you take his stats as captain, including his 'cheap runs', it reads: 24/43 6 1669 146 45.10 4 9

[Predator_05]

Preds' date=' Actually its much harder [b']in India .... no one has succesfully chased a 350+ target in the 4th innings.

Exactly. Bumper's point would make sense if India were chasing targets of 220-250 - which are difficult, but "chase-able". It all depends on what your expectations of this team are. I for one, prefer to be realistic and don't expect them to break records and pull off minor miracles by chasing down 350+ totals in every other match. If he does, than more power to him

[Bumper]

I dont know from where u got this impression that i expect our team to chase down big 4th innings targets, because there is no post of mine in this thread or elsewhere claiming so. I'll just conclude by saying this: Our famed batting lineup has caused us more embarrasment than our supposedly weak bowling lineup in recent times. And this fact is illustrated by the no. of times we have bowled sides out twice in the last year and yet lost a no. of tests/series in this time. When u are 1-0 up in the series, our bowlers have already done their job (if not perfectly atleast adequately). How unfair is it to expect the famed batting lineup to offer a decent fight (which is equal to batting out 50-60 overs) ? I have nothing more to say, as we are beginning to recycle the same points.