The Outsider Posted June 1, 2012 Posted June 1, 2012 Institutions can always allow for weight-age for NTSE, Olympiads, and other talent search exams/competitions/honors. More or less agree with the rest of your post, except the idea of making the top 5-10% of any board exam go through another test. I'll get to that later but it's quite baffling that things like NTSE, Olympiads, and other such achievements carry no weight in getting admitted to the best institutes of a country. Specially, Olympiads are a global challenge at par with the kind of problem solving methodology which will be used once a student is part of a top research institute. Another test for the top 5-10% will only lead to additional pressure and cramming, IMO. I am a believer in the notion that if you can perform exceptionally in one system then given a certain amount of training you should be able to perform in the top 10-20% in any other system. Another thing - regarding your point about leaving the weights to individual institutes, I would go one step further and leave them to individual departments (given the enormous difficulty in changing Majors in India). For example, an IT management course should be allowed the freedom to give more weight to English and/or a language of communication than say a Mechanical Engineering department. I have been surprised to see the kind of reports some people write with phrases like "The author says" and "In some work" when referring to previous work on the subject. Putting your work concisely should be an important emphasis of any research or project because the aim should be to communicate with a broader audience (not everyone, but broader in the sense that if I am writing a paper in Astrophysics, everyone in Physics should be able to understand it) and understand the big picture of your research to communicate it effectively. This aspect of research is hugely under emphasized in India.
akshayxyz Posted June 3, 2012 Posted June 3, 2012 More or less agree with the rest of your post' date=' except [b']the idea of making the top 5-10% of any board exam go through another test. I'll get to that later but it's quite baffling that things like NTSE, Olympiads, and other such achievements carry no weight in getting admitted to the best institutes of a country. Specially, Olympiads are a global challenge at par with the kind of problem solving methodology which will be used once a student is part of a top research institute. That was not a serious suggestion.. and definitely not to be used as Engg selection criteria. This invite-only exam suggestion is meant for prize/rewards, anything but engg selection (definitely not enforced).... and simultaneously use that data as a metric for standardization across boards. And that is based on the assumption that ,as of today we do not have some such data ( a common test taken by students from different boards). As for' date=' s[b']tandardization across different boards.... they should do this, make top 5-10% of each board sit through (invitation basis) - a subjective test (for prize or whatever), and then use it as a metric to normalize %iles across the board marks :). Another test for the top 5-10% will only lead to additional pressure and cramming, IMO. I am a believer in the notion that if you can perform exceptionally in one system then given a certain amount of training you should be able to perform in the top 10-20% in any other system. No disagreement here. That is what I call - habit of winning. Another thing - regarding your point about leaving the weights to individual institutes, I would go one step further and leave them to individual departments (given the enormous difficulty in changing Majors in India). For example, an IT management course should be allowed the freedom to give more weight to English and/or a language of communication than say a Mechanical Engineering department. . That would be ideal scenario. In a truely free society, one should be allowed to define their own philosophy and set of values - and execute them. w/o providing such freedom we are clipping the wings of intellectual ®evolution.
Mandrake Posted June 6, 2012 Posted June 6, 2012 Let IIT's devise and run a GRE type exam which all colleges should be mandated to adhere to..you get admitted purely based on your score...as for the boards,I do not think the marks earned there are worth counting anywhere.
akshayxyz Posted June 6, 2012 Posted June 6, 2012 >>which all colleges should be mandated to adhere to. I disagree... Any/every college should be allowed to execute whatever methodology they want to evaluate their incoming students. (as long as it is not racially/religion-wise/regionwise/...) discriminatory. If they wish so, they should be allowed to select their students based on LKG/UKG scores.
Crookbond Posted June 6, 2012 Posted June 6, 2012 >>which all colleges should be mandated to adhere to. I disagree... Any/every college should be allowed to execute whatever methodology they want to evaluate their incoming students. (as long as it is not racially/religion-wise/regionwise/...) discriminatory. If they wish so, they should be allowed to select their students based on LKG/UKG scores. Sorry - There should be no further "tests" or "exams" after the common entrance test to be held. Of course, they can ask for other information and judge the candidate as long as not "discriminatory" as you say.
akshayxyz Posted June 6, 2012 Posted June 6, 2012 Sorry - There should be no further "tests" or "exams" after the common entrance test to be held. Of course' date=' they can ask for other information and judge the candidate as long as not "discriminatory" as you say.[/quote'] Did you even watch what Prof Sanghi had to say on first level filter, and second level filter - and what it means in context of the kind of students they want do see in the top ranks of final JEE ranking? He even said that, it should be upto every institute - how much ( and if any) weight-age they want to give to JEE. And before that, why do you think Govt (who seem to know nothing about this matter) should enforce a certain selection criteria on IITs?
The Outsider Posted June 6, 2012 Posted June 6, 2012 The 'cult' discussion from the other thread is more relevant here, so here is my understanding of it. I don't think it refers to an unfair means of admission, but to the fact that IITs have resisted any changes to the admission criteria through JEE. For decades, there was no initiative from the IITs to make any changes to it even though the flaws of the system are so glaringly obvious. It's only when the government has started pushing them for changes that they have started floating alternatives and left to their own they would be happy with the JEE because in their assessment they are producing good students through it and don't want to change the system. Good students are being produced because of the extreme selectivity of the JEE system, rather than the JEE being some fundamental measure of a student's accomplishments, potential and abilities.
Crookbond Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 And it's not just the admission system & JEE. There's a faculty 'cult' too. IMO, an institute is as good as it's faculty. One needs to just browse the list of professors at IITs to understand the problem there.
seedhi Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 The 'cult' discussion from the other thread is more relevant here' date=' so here is my understanding of it. I don't think it refers to an unfair means of admission, but to the fact that IITs have resisted any changes to the admission criteria through JEE.[b'] For decades, there was no initiative from the IITs to make any changes to it even though the flaws of the system are so glaringly obvious. It's only when the government has started pushing them for changes that they have started floating alternatives and left to their own they would be happy with the JEE because in their assessment they are producing good students through it and don't want to change the system. The pattern of JEE has been changed several times. Till around late 70s I believe JEE also had an English exam, then it was made only Math, Physics, Chemistry. I can tell you that in 2000 a major format change took place when the screening test was held in January. Subsequently also several changes did take place and I believe it became less subjective (long derivations/proofs) and more of an objective (short answer) test. Good students are being produced because of the extreme selectivity of the JEE system, rather than the JEE being some fundamental measure of a student's accomplishments, potential and abilities.Even if this is true (it is partially true as per my experience), the answer is in improving the quality of the faculty rather than destroying the JEE.
Vijay.Sharma Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 I am not too sure what to make of the proposed changes. On the one hand it takes away the IIT's freedom of selecting students based solely on their JEE and not bother too much about the students' XII performance. This is a fundamental right that the IITs have. But on the other hand how much have the IITs improved on their mechanisms to judge talent over the years? I do not know the answer to this but have the IITs proactively done much to improve their intake mechanisms - I am not referring to cosmetic changes like dropping English, etc. Why haven't the IITs done talent hunts? Why should every selection be only through a written exam? How about practical tasks where problems need to be solved - like competitions? I agree with both Akshay and Outsider here that the IITs (or for that matter any other institution) need to go beyond just one criterion for selection. Recommendation letters are a no-no to work well in our society but surely other subjective ways can be thought of
Vijay.Sharma Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 Another point that I wanted to make is that of the kind of professors that institutions have. I guess if you want good people then you must be willing to pay them well. I feel the salary at these kinda institutes should be at the same level as the top corporations' salaries. Secondly, even the professors there must not be the bookish, research-only professors. There should be incentive for professors also to gain experience in the real world and come back and teach. It must not happen as the old saying goes, "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach". So even professors must be encouraged (thru higher pay, better incentives, etc) to gain experience from the industry
The Outsider Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 The pattern of JEE has been changed several times. Till around late 70s I believe JEE also had an English exam, then it was made only Math, Physics, Chemistry. I can tell you that in 2000 a major format change took place when the screening test was held in January. Subsequently also several changes did take place and I believe it became less subjective (long derivations/proofs) and more of an objective (short answer) test. Can't say about the change in the 70s, but the change in the late 90s was again driven by a government initiative. Even if this is true (it is partially true as per my experience), the answer is in improving the quality of the faculty rather than destroying the JEE. I've already said above that the main focus should be the quality of education rather than the exact nitpicking on the nature of the entrance criteria. But "destroying the JEE"? Surely that's too much of a compliment to pay to a system which does not even give any weight to internationally recognized competitions like Olympiads.
vipin Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 (1) The JEE (as it was until now) is indeed a very good exam to select the kind of students who can use their intelligence and imagination to proactively solve problems. Those of you who have taken and cracked the JEE woukd agree with me that it is one of the best exams that can be used to test the ability of a person to apply concepts to various situations. This is very different from being able to acquire lots of knowledge through cramming and be able to do nothing with it (which is what the board exams promote). Infact, as I mentioned in another thread, the correlation between being a board topper and cracking the JEE is not very high because the two of them require absolutely different skills and preparation. (2) Those who are calling for international olympiads to be included for selection are probably living in a fancy world and have no grounding in the reality of the situation. The IIT-JEE is as close an examination as you have in India to an olympiad. Infact the olympiad participans and winners for India often go on to become JEE top rankers. On, the other hand you can't keep weightages for these olympiads because a poor student coming out of a backward village may never even have heard about it. The JEE is a one (or two) stop solution where everybody starts on an equal footing and has the chance to give their best. (3) In the west, an institute may be as good as the quality of its faculty, but in India its different. Here, an institute is as good as its students. What sort of faculty would you expect when you are going to pay them a starting salary of 35000/month. I myself had offers from 2 NITs to join as a faculty and would have liked to, but why should I when they are going to pay me half my current salary. (4) The IITs aleady have MCM (Merit cum means) scholarships, where the poorest students are highly subsidized. The fees is slowly calibrating itself upwards as some of you desire.
seedhi Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 Can't say about the change in the 70s, but the change in the late 90s was again driven by a government initiative. I've already said above that the main focus should be the quality of education rather than the exact nitpicking on the nature of the entrance criteria. But "destroying the JEE"? Surely that's too much of a compliment to pay to a system which does not even give any weight to internationally recognized competitions like Olympiads.Give weight to olympiads? Why the hell should it? And in any case there are around 20 students who represent India in the international olympiads each year and almost all of them do very well in JEE as well. All I am saying is that the actual problems in higher education, and even in the IITs is lack of quality faculty, lack of research environment and lack of interaction with the industry. JEE is not a real issue in my opinion, but changing/eliminating JEE is far far easier and grabs more eyeballs than fixing the actual problems. Thus the MHRD is going the easy way of superficial change. By the way, the system they have proposed is utter rubbish and will lead to much more pressure on students and not to mention the uncertainty.
The Outsider Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 Give weight to olympiads? Why the hell should it? And in any case there are around 20 students who represent India in the international olympiads each year and almost all of them do very well in JEE as well. Olympiad is an example, but if you think the JEE is as close to the perfect system you are going to get we can agree to disagree. All I am saying is that the actual problems in higher education, and even in the IITs is lack of quality faculty, lack of research environment and lack of interaction with the industry. JEE is not a real issue in my opinion, but changing/eliminating JEE is far far easier and grabs more eyeballs than fixing the actual problems. Thus the MHRD is going the easy way of superficial change. By the way, the system they have proposed is utter rubbish and will lead to much more pressure on students and not to mention the uncertainty. I agree all of the above should be a greater priority than changing the JEE - I made the point in my first post on the thread itself. I haven't even looked at the proposed changes in any detail. All the above problems are much more difficult and fundamental to solve than changing the entrance criteria for an institute and everyone is taking the easy way out.
Crookbond Posted June 8, 2012 Posted June 8, 2012 IIT Kanpur revolts, to hold separate entrance exam "The recent IIT Council proposal on admissions to IITs is academically and methodically unsound and in violation of the Institutes of Technology Act (1961) and IIT Kanpur Ordinances (Ordinance 3.2 (Admissions)," said the resolution. "In view of the Senate resolution adopted in its 2011-12/9th meeting held on April 10, 2012, invoking Ordinance 3.2, the Senate resolves that IIT Kanpur will conduct the entrance examination for admissions to its undergraduate programmes in 2013." http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-news/NewDelhi/IIT-Kanpur-revolts-to-hold-separate-entrance-exam/Article1-868133.aspx Mods - Please edit the title in the OP to reflect the update.
Tiger80 Posted June 8, 2012 Author Posted June 8, 2012 (1) The JEE (as it was until now) is indeed a very good exam to select the kind of students who can use their intelligence and imagination to proactively solve problems. Those of you who have taken and cracked the JEE woukd agree with me that it is one of the best exams that can be used to test the ability of a person to apply concepts to various situations. This is very different from being able to acquire lots of knowledge through cramming and be able to do nothing with it (which is what the board exams promote). Infact, as I mentioned in another thread, the correlation between being a board topper and cracking the JEE is not very high because the two of them require absolutely different skills and preparation. (2) Those who are calling for international olympiads to be included for selection are probably living in a fancy world and have no grounding in the reality of the situation. The IIT-JEE is as close an examination as you have in India to an olympiad. Infact the olympiad participans and winners for India often go on to become JEE top rankers. On, the other hand you can't keep weightages for these olympiads because a poor student coming out of a backward village may never even have heard about it. The JEE is a one (or two) stop solution where everybody starts on an equal footing and has the chance to give their best. (3) In the west, an institute may be as good as the quality of its faculty, but in India its different. Here, an institute is as good as its students. What sort of faculty would you expect when you are going to pay them a starting salary of 35000/month. I myself had offers from 2 NITs to join as a faculty and would have liked to, but why should I when they are going to pay me half my current salary. (4) The IITs aleady have MCM (Merit cum means) scholarships, where the poorest students are highly subsidized. The fees is slowly calibrating itself upwards as some of you desire. :nice: top post
Crookbond Posted June 8, 2012 Posted June 8, 2012 Full text of IIT Kanpur's resolution over conducting its own entrance test from 2013 The Senate of IIT Kanpur resolves that: 1) a. The recent IIT Council proposal on admissions to IITs is academically and methodically unsound and in violation of the Institutes of Technology Act (1961) and IIT Kanpur Ordinances (Ordinance 3.2 (Admissions)). b. In view of the Senate resolution adopted in its 2011-12/9th meeting held on April 10, 2012, invoking Ordinance 3.2 the Senate resolves that IIT Kanpur will conduct the entrance examination for admissions to its undergraduate programmes in 2013. c. Given the present exigency, the Senate authorizes the Chairman Senate to constitute a Committee with the help of DOAA for conducting JEE 2013 by IIT Kanpur. d. The Undergraduate Admissions Committee will organize the entrance examination and counselling, and deal with all other matters pertaining to the undergraduate admissions in 2013. e. To the extent possible, the committee will coordinate with other IITs to conduct the entrance examination jointly. 2) In order that the views of the IIT Kanpur Senate on the issue of undergraduate admissions are represented in the public domain adequately and accurately, the Senate authorizes the following senators as its spokespersons till further order: Profs. Y. N .Mohapatra, Harish Karnick, Somenath Biswas, H. C. Verma, A. K. Chaturvedi, C. S. Upadhyay and Deepak Gupta. 3) IITK Senate reiterates the stand it took as represented by its Chairman in the May 12, 2012 meeting of the IIT council. Consequently the Senate resolves to record its forceful dissent of the Council resolution related to JEE. This dissent may be recorded by a letter to the Chairman, IIT Council and Chairman, BOG from the Chairman Senate. http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/full-text-of-iit-kanpur-s-resolution-over-conducting-its-own-entrance-test-from-2013-229144
Crookbond Posted June 8, 2012 Posted June 8, 2012 The JEE (as it was until now) is indeed a very good exam to select the kind of students who can use their intelligence and imagination to proactively solve problems. Those of you who have taken and cracked the JEE woukd agree with me that it is one of the best exams that can be used to test the ability of a person to apply concepts to various situations. This is very different from being able to acquire lots of knowledge through cramming and be able to do nothing with it (which is what the board exams promote). Infact, as I mentioned in another thread, the correlation between being a board topper and cracking the JEE is not very high because the two of them require absolutely different skills and preparation. You are generalizing your personal experience of cracking the JEE to everyone who cracks the JEE. IMO, JEE (in its current form) doesn't evaluate the "fit of the person" to the degree. It evaluates how you can solve MCQs in a certain amount of time. Sometimes, you don't even require to know the concepts to get through those questions. Lets stop portraying the JEE as the savior when it's far from it.
nballa Posted June 8, 2012 Posted June 8, 2012 the GRE is significantly more difficult than the JEE. i spent two hours in a GRE test center but it took me only 10-15 mins to finish up and exit the JEE test center.
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