yoda Posted June 9, 2012 Posted June 9, 2012 So, the one exam which, without any argument, produces some of the top students in engineering, is to be messed with? Well done, GOI! The JEE may not be perfect, it may require too much additional preparation, etc, etc. However, there is no question that the IITs are what they are, not because of the institute or the profs, it is the students. You take that away from them and they become yet another average Institute. Expanding the IITs to a gazillion of them from the core 5 itself was a mistake. All it has done is just diluted the IITs (no offense to Khota and IIT-G or whatever :P). With these common entrance, etc, it is going to get diluted even more to the point of no return.
vipin Posted June 9, 2012 Posted June 9, 2012 You are generalizing your personal experience of cracking the JEE to everyone who cracks the JEE. IMO' date=' JEE (in its current form) doesn't evaluate the "fit of the person" to the degree. It evaluates how you can solve MCQs in a certain amount of time. Sometimes, you don't even require to know the concepts to get through those questions. Lets stop portraying the JEE as the savior when it's far from it.[/quote'] I don't know about the previous 3 - 4 years, but when I took the JEE (in 2004), we had a screening and a main exam. And the main exam did not have MCQs. Only Olympiad level problems which you were meant to solve all by yourself. The MCQ only test itself is a big dilution, no doubt. I heard that around 50% of the 1st year batch failed Mathematics101 in one of the IITs last year.
The Outsider Posted June 10, 2012 Posted June 10, 2012 So, the one exam which, without any argument, produces some of the top students in engineering, is to be messed with? Well done, GOI! The JEE may not be perfect, it may require too much additional preparation, etc, etc. However, there is no question that the IITs are what they are, not because of the institute or the profs, it is the students. You take that away from them and they become yet another average Institute. Expanding the IITs to a gazillion of them from the core 5 itself was a mistake. All it has done is just diluted the IITs (no offense to Khota and IIT-G or whatever :P). With these common entrance, etc, it is going to get diluted even more to the point of no return. :hysterical::hysterical: I've got a better idea - let's restrict the intake to 100 students - that will make IITs even better.
The Outsider Posted June 10, 2012 Posted June 10, 2012 You are generalizing your personal experience of cracking the JEE to everyone who cracks the JEE. IMO' date=' JEE (in its current form) doesn't evaluate the "fit of the person" to the degree. It evaluates how you can solve MCQs in a certain amount of time. Sometimes, you don't even require to know the concepts to get through those questions. Lets stop portraying the JEE as the savior when it's far from it.[/quote'] It's the "cult" that you were referring to - any questions on the entrance exams for IITs is taken as a personal affront by people from IITs in the sense that they think changing the entrance criteria or questioning it is questioning their ability and intelligence. It's mildly amusing to witness.
vipin Posted June 10, 2012 Posted June 10, 2012 It's the "cult" that you were referring to - any questions on the entrance exams for IITs is taken as a personal affront by people from IITs in the sense that they think changing the entrance criteria or questioning it is questioning their ability and intelligence. It's mildly amusing to witness. Not really. The defense I was putting up is based simply on one reason. Which is that the JEE forces students to study in a very different way than the contemporary education system of India. Which we know from experience is very very necessary. Infact it is that leap of rediscovery which is much more important than the format of JEE itself. Infact the two tier system the Govt. has proposed (shortlisting based on board marks and an MCQ test), followed by a main subjective test isn't a bad idea at all. The only point of contention seems to be the validity of the proposed standardization of board exam scores (from across different boards). Infact the same standardization approach is used by many IIMs and it might begin to throw questions on that process as well.
vipin Posted June 10, 2012 Posted June 10, 2012 Infact the best solution to this dilemma is to fix the Indian education system altogether. Then we can simply use board scores (like SAT scores) for admission to UG programs. If you ask me whats wrong with the education system and board exams; well sample the Class XII physics paper here on this portal - http://cbseportal.com/exam/class-12/physics/paper-2011-set-2 Most of the questions are Define/State/Derive etc. which the students simply mug up. There are hardly any applied questions which would force them to think out of their comfort zone. Now sample this: http://www.fiitjee.com/fiitjeejava/jsp/iitjeesolution2012/iitjee2012paper2.pdf These coaching institutes are another scourge but that is a whole different story.
Raghav_12 Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 There is some convoluted logic here. Some very erudite people on this forum claimed many times that IIT's are no good and good quality of IITians is just because there intake is good. IIT's don't add any value to that intake. This means that they think atleast IIT entrance exam is good and it definitely ensures that students those go to IIT's are good. Now when very same erudite people have to comment on JEE, they say that JEE is also no good. Great Logic.
Crookbond Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 Not really. The defense I was putting up is based simply on one reason. Which is that the JEE forces students to study in a very different way than the contemporary education system of India. Which we know from experience is very very necessary. Infact it is that leap of rediscovery which is much more important than the format of JEE itself. Infact the two tier system the Govt. has proposed (shortlisting based on board marks and an MCQ test), followed by a main subjective test isn't a bad idea at all. The only point of contention seems to be the validity of the proposed standardization of board exam scores (from across different boards). Infact the same standardization approach is used by many IIMs and it might begin to throw questions on that process as well. Completely disagree - It's conforming to the education system.
Crookbond Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 There is some convoluted logic here. Some very erudite people on this forum claimed many times that IIT's are no good and good quality of IITians is just because there intake is good. IIT's don't add any value to that intake. This means that they think atleast IIT entrance exam is good and it definitely ensures that students those go to IIT's are good. Now when very same erudite people have to comment on JEE, they say that JEE is also no good. Great Logic. :facepalm:
vipin Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 Completely disagree - It's conforming to the education system. Could you explain how?
yoda Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 :hysterical::hysterical: I've got a better idea - let's restrict the intake to 100 students - that will make IITs even better. It's not the absolute number, rather the number at which you are capable of maintaining quality.
Crookbond Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 Could you explain how? The MCQ pattern leads to people learning "How to solve MCQ's" and not "Physics, Chemistry & Maths". So no, it's just an elite version of plaguing education system in our country.
vipin Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 The MCQ pattern leads to people learning "How to solve MCQ's" and not "Physics' date=' Chemistry & Maths". So no, it's just an elite version of plaguing education system in our country.[/quote'] I'd agree with you on that. But thats not the IIT-JEE we want. And inspite of it just being MCQs, the topper is still able to score only around 70%. So, it still deals with solving a fair bit of Physics, Chem and Maths. You can only go so far without.
The Outsider Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 It's not the absolute number' date=' rather the number at which you are capable of maintaining quality.[/quote'] It makes no sense to keep the number of elite engineers graduating in India at the same level as they were when the population of the country was half a billion people less, the education levels were much poorer, and the industry in the country was nowhere near the level it is now.
Crookbond Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 I'd agree with you on that. But thats not the IIT-JEE we want. And inspite of it just being MCQs, the topper is still able to score only around 70%. So, it still deals with solving a fair bit of Physics, Chem and Maths. You can only go so far without. Perfect, question is when these things are happening & the JEE was under full IIT control why did the IIT's turn a blind eye to the issue? These issues are not rocket science & are highlighted even by elite IIT professors themselves. Now, when the government arm twists the IIT alumni cry foul? For once, I'm glad about an anarchist government step. Let me know if you want an honest answer to the question I asked in the above paragraph.
Crookbond Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 No followers for IIT-Kanpur's plan to conduct own entrance exam IIT - Delhi, Bombay, Kharagpur and Guhawati will admit students based on CET. http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/news-by-industry/services/education/no-followers-for-iit-kanpurs-plan-to-conduct-own-entrance-exam/articleshow/14005509.cms
Crookbond Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 IIT Kanpur's move legally unsustainable, say IITs “IIT Kanpur’s resolution does not hold water. Legally, IIT Kanpur cannot separate itself from JEE (the joint entrance examination). As ccording to the ordinance, part of the IIT Act, admissions to the undergraduate programmes will be governed by the JEE organised by all the IITs together,” said a professor from IIT Roorkee who was involved in framing its statutes. http://business-standard.com/india/news/iit-kanpurs-move-legally-unsustainable-say-iits/476958/
vipin Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 Perfect, question is when these things are happening & the JEE was under full IIT control why did the IIT's turn a blind eye to the issue? These issues are not rocket science & are highlighted even by elite IIT professors themselves. Now, when the government arm twists the IIT alumni cry foul? For once, I'm glad about an anarchist government step. Let me know if you want an honest answer to the question I asked in the above paragraph. The JEE changs that occured 4 years ago were also government directed and infact, they have been arm twisted by the government to make it an MCQ only exam. The MCQ format is one of the things the IITs are fighting:- Go through this interview http://www.tehelka.com/story_main52.asp?filename=Fw020612Too.asp You can derive all the sadistic pleasure you need out of this, but for once look at it from a national perspective than a personal perspective.
Crookbond Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 The JEE changs that occured 4 years ago were also government directed and infact, they have been arm twisted by the government to make it an MCQ only exam. The MCQ format is one of the things the IITs are fighting:- Go through this interview http://www.tehelka.com/story_main52.asp?filename=Fw020612Too.asp You can derive all the sadistic pleasure you need out of this, but for once look at it from a national perspective than a personal perspective. First, Please prove that knowledge of Physics-Chemistry-Maths in a "subjective" format leads to better quality students. This subjective versus objective is just a two-edged sword. If you make one, it breaks the other. It's not even a solution. It's interesting that you see everything good with the IITs. Now, here's a smal challenge - Please tell me five bad things about the IITs which need immediate resolution in terms of "national interests". Also try this - http://dsanghi.blogspot.in/ in various articles. I am not for a change in the JEE as suggested by the MHRD, to be honest with you. But, before crying foul the IIT's (especially the faculty) should introspect whether they turn wolf on matters which they aren't directly affected by.
yoda Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 It makes no sense to keep the number of elite engineers graduating in India at the same level as they were when the population of the country was half a billion people less' date=' the education levels were much poorer, and the industry in the country was nowhere near the level it is now.[/quote'] Well, we should gradually increase the number as the population grows and not wait for one fine day and boom go crazy.
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