Bal Thackeray passes away

[The Outsider]

Punjab is 48% vegetarian and Haryana 62% .I guess Punjabis being hardcore non veg is myth

I was referring to the traditional culture, those numbers are probably skewed by places like Gurgaon and Chandigarh. If you go to a Haryana village, the only people who have traditionally ate meat are Muslims. If you go to a Punjab village, the difference is pretty clear.

[Silva]

http://www.rediff.com/news/column/why-mumbai-needs-a-bal-thackeray/20121119.htm

the one article that you post to defend your hero actually contradicts some of the points you've made. But I guess you had to divert from your ridiculous "mumbai would be like calcutta" argument.

[surajmal]

What about the dominant religion in the region? The way majority of the people conduct ceremonies like marriage? What about food - Haryana has a huge vegetarian population specially in the villages' date=' Punjab does not. What about the kind of rotis that are made in Haryana and Punjab? Amritsar and Rohtak or Patiala and Hissar and their surrounding areas would be the typical culture of the states - you find them the same except for the language?[/quote'] Major religions are different but I feel Jats (jatts) have more loyalty to their caste/tribe than religion and since their occupations have been same for the longest time i.e. Kissan/Jawan, there is no difference anxiety between the dominant groups of both states. Regarding food, I don't see any difference (makki ki roti and sarson ka saag is as much a Haryanvi concoction as its Punjabi) - other than the non veg part but Non veg population is growing in Haryana. Besides there are plenty of Dhabas owned and operated by Sikhs/Punjabis along GT Road. And the nearer you get the state border, it is basically a potpourri. I grew up in Sonepat/Rohtak and since they are university towns - they are as cosmopolitan as an Indian town is going to get (other than the metros). Punjabis are ubiquitous in towns (atleast the major ones) of Haryana. So, many of the religious (of the punjabi hindus)/cultural traditions have been transferred. People are slowly moving away from the Arya Samaj (although it is still dominant in villages). And certain events like Ladies Sangeet have become part and parcel of marriage ceremonies because of the influx of punjabis.

[Tiger80]

I was referring to the traditional culture' date=' those numbers are probably skewed by places like Gurgaon and Chandigarh. If you go to a Haryana village, the only people who have traditionally ate meat are Muslims. If you go to a Punjab village, the difference is pretty clear.[/quote'] At present the population of Gurgaon 1.5 million.The survey was conducted in 2006 so i guess the population was going to be slightly more than 1 million .So 1 million population can hardly skew the ratio.Don't know about Chandigarh whether it was included in Punjab, Haryana . Also being in Gurgaon from last 10-12 years I met few jaats which are non veg even in their village though majority being vegetarian

[surajmal]

the one article that you post to defend your hero actually contradicts some of the points you've made. But I guess you had to divert from your ridiculous "mumbai would be like calcutta" argument.

My hero? I'm not from Bombay numbnuts. I would probably be the subject of SS' ire. I just try to put the things in perspective. You should try it sometime.

[surajmal]

Punjab is 48% vegetarian and Haryana 62% .I guess Punjabis being hardcore non veg is myth Also on sidenote Punjab and Haryana are dominated and ruled by Jats.Both have similarity in their culture , temperament ,profession .Rural people of Punjab and Haryana are known as tall sturdy , aggressive , hard working macho people .their choice of career eg army is also same .Also both Punjab and Haryana have lowest Child sex ratio. Of course Religion , language and cusine are different .

I don't feel cuisine is that different.

[rixxuu]

hello every one . very informative posts by most of the posters here , I am gaining a lot of info about the diversed culture of India on this forum, thanx for every one for unintentionally helping me in understanding our neighbour. On the topic ,I would not give an opinion coz I v not that much knowledge to blossom this debate ..cheers

[Old guy]

Another retard joins. I don't know anything about Haryana. Just that I spent 15 years of my young life there. But please continue.

lived in both states...honestly there is big difference,,:nervous:

[surajmal]

lived in both states...honestly there is big difference' date=',:nervous:[/quote'] Elaborate.

[Silva]

My hero? I'm not from Bombay numbnuts. I would probably be the subject of SS' ire. I just try to put the things in perspective. You should try it sometime.

Stop back tracking, when you make a ridiculous argument saying that Thackery prevented mumbai from becoming like Calcutta that isn't supported by any fact or logic it means you clearly worship the guy. You might as well say that Thackeray could walk on water if he wanted to.

[surajmal]

Stop back tracking' date=' when you make a ridiculous argument saying that Thackery prevented mumbai from becoming like Calcutta that isn't supported by any fact or logic it means you clearly worship the guy. You might as well say that Thackeray could walk on water if he wanted to.[/quote'] You are a dumb ****. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/18/world/asia/bal-k-thackeray-leader-of-right-wing-indian-party-dies-at-86.html?_r=0 Communism is a cancer and he saved Bombay from it. For that I'm thankful as an Indian. I don't give a rat's ass how Kerala managed communism considering it has become a islamic shithole now.

[The Outsider]

Major religions are different but I feel Jats (jatts) have more loyalty to their caste/tribe than religion and since their occupations have been same for the longest time i.e. Kissan/Jawan, there is no difference anxiety between the dominant groups of both states.

The Jatt Sikhs of Punjab in no way identify themselves with the Jaats of Haryana and vice versa. Yeah, they do share certain common traditions like army etc., but beyond that there is very little in common.

Regarding food, I don't see any difference (makki ki roti and sarson ka saag is as much a Haryanvi concoction as its Punjabi) - other than the non veg part but Non veg population is growing in Haryana.

The Saag is cooked differently in Punjab and Haryana. Differences like the staple daal of Punjab being sabut Urad versus the staple daal of Haryana being dhuli Urad etc. etc. Traditional Punjabi food is very different from Haryanvi food. Just walk into a random home in a random village at lunch time in either state and you will see the difference. Another example - since you are from Haryana - no one in Punjab eats Boora, whereas it is very popular in Haryana to have it with rice and ghee.

Besides there are plenty of Dhabas owned and operated by Sikhs/Punjabis along GT Road. And the nearer you get the state border, it is basically a potpourri. I grew up in Sonepat/Rohtak and since they are university towns - they are as cosmopolitan as an Indian town is going to get (other than the metros).

I am not talking about the changes over the past few years, but the traditional cultures of Haryana and Punjab. I am sure there are certain areas of Bangalore where you can find more places serving Shahi Paneer than Dosa today, but that is hardly a reflection of the inherent culture of the state.

Punjabis are ubiquitous in towns (atleast the major ones) of Haryana. So, many of the religious (of the punjabi hindus)/cultural traditions have been transferred. People are slowly moving away from the Arya Samaj (although it is still dominant in villages). And certain events like Ladies Sangeet have become part and parcel of marriage ceremonies because of the influx of punjabis.

Again, my point was not to do with the modern homogenization, but the traditional cultures of Punjab and Haryana and you can still see the difference in the villages. As for urban centers, they are much more similar I agree.

[Silva]

You are a dumb ****. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/18/world/asia/bal-k-thackeray-leader-of-right-wing-indian-party-dies-at-86.html?_r=0 Communism is a cancer and he saved Bombay from it. For that I'm thankful as an Indian. I don't give a rat's ass how Kerala managed communism considering it has become a islamic shithole now.

:hysterical: can you read? this is the second article you posted that contradicts your points, Congress which was the ruling party was also against the communist, why wouldn't you thank congress from saving Mumbai from the communist if Thackeray wasn't your hero? I don't know how you come to the conclusion that he saved Mumbai from communist or that he prevented Mumbai from becoming Calcutta which was an even dumber argument which you've rightfully ran away from. Your just clutching at straws with that pathetic comment about Kerala.

[The Outsider]

At present the population of Gurgaon 1.5 million.The survey was conducted in 2006 so i guess the population was going to be slightly more than 1 million .So 1 million population can hardly skew the ratio.Don't know about Chandigarh whether it was included in Punjab, Haryana . Also being in Gurgaon from last 10-12 years I met few jaats which are non veg even in their village though majority being vegetarian

The survey's findings might be right even after excluding the urban centers, but I am trying to address a different point here - not of the current population, but of the traditional difference between a Punjabi and Haryanvi culture. I am not doubting your claim that you know a few Jaats who eat meat, but talking about walking into a Haryana village and identifying the cuisine there. The Arya Samaaj culture has been very strong in Haryana for a number of decades and has a lot of differences with the traditional Punjabi culture. Is it dwindling and homogenizing? Yes. Is that the point I was making? No.

[surajmal]

Well at some level differences will become apparent (compare Jats of western UP with Haryana). But there are enough similarities that a transplanted sikh wouldn't feel uneasy in Haryanavi towns (vs. towns of other states) and vice versa with Haryanvis in Punjabi towns (I agree that situation in the villages is different but urbanization is happening fast enough that in 20 years majority will be living in towns).

[surajmal]

:hysterical: can you read? this is the second article you posted that contradicts your points' date=' Congress which was the ruling party was also against the communist, why wouldn't you thank congress from saving Mumbai from the communist if Thackeray wasn't your hero? I don't know how you come to the conclusion that he saved Mumbai from communist or that he prevented Mumbai from becoming Calcutta which was an even dumber argument which you've rightfully ran away from. Your just clutching at straws with that pathetic comment about Kerala.[/quote'] I'm clutching at straws? You think Anti migrant sentiments are present only among Shiv sena cadres? As for Congress being against Communism, it is one thing to actively fight it and another thing to look away while others do the ground work. Here is another article why BT was instrumental The Marathi manoos who took Mumbai from the Communists http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-news/Mumbai/The-Marathi-manoos-who-took-Mumbai-from-the-Communists/Article1-960847.aspx

[Silva]

I'm clutching at straws? You think Anti migrant sentiments are present only among Shiv sena cadres? As for Congress being against Communism, it is one thing to actively fight it and another thing to look away while others do the ground work. Here is another article why BT was instrumental The Marathi manoos who took Mumbai from the Communists http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-news/Mumbai/The-Marathi-manoos-who-took-Mumbai-from-the-Communists/Article1-960847.aspx

Okay we probably got off on the wrong foot. this is my last post because were starting to go around in circles.I agree Bal thackeray did a good thing going after communist (although not with the tactics of how he went after them) that's where we probably agree. the disagreement lies when saying that Mumbai wouldn't be a financial capital without him or that it would be like Calcutta. I think that takes a huge stretch. The good he did going after going after the communist doesn't make up for all the bad IMO. Similarly the good that congress did with the economic reforms doesn't come close to all the bad that they had done. And Im very skeptical to claims that say that he prevented Mumbai from being communist but even if I conceded that very big point my view on him is the same.

[Tiger80]

The survey's findings might be right even after excluding the urban centers' date=' but I am trying to address a different point here - not of the current population, but of the traditional difference between a Punjabi and Haryanvi culture. I am not doubting your claim that you know a few Jaats who eat meat, but talking about walking into a Haryana village and identifying the cuisine there. The Arya Samaaj culture has been very strong in Haryana for a number of decades and has a lot of differences with the traditional Punjabi culture. Is it dwindling and homogenizing? Yes. Is that the point I was making? No.[/quote'] I am not saying that traditional Arya samaj culture has no differences with traditional punjabi culture but there are many many similarities which I have posted in my earlier post.Also traditional Punjabi culture which is famous is mostly followed by rural sikhs.As a urban Sikh I can point out many differences of urban sikhs with rural sikhs whether it is language,attitude , profession,physique etc.So it is upto you what you take center point of difference.If you take religion and cusine as main points then of course Rural Jat sikh and Haryanavi jaats are different, but if you take physique,profession , temperament , attitude ,caste pride ,choice of work, agrarian problems then rural jat sikh has much more common with rural Haryanavi jaat than with an urban non jat sikh

[The Outsider]

Well at some level differences will become apparent (compare Jats of western UP with Haryana). But there are enough similarities that a transplanted sikh wouldn't feel uneasy in Haryanavi towns (vs. towns of other states) and vice versa with Haryanvis in Punjabi towns (I agree that situation in the villages is different but urbanization is happening fast enough that in 20 years majority will be living in towns).

I would say there are more similarities between Jaats of Western UP and Haryana than Jatts of Punjab. Anyhow, the initial point I made was regarding the traditional Punjab and Haryana cultures - obviously urbanization and homogenization is going to bring close the boundaries, specially in bordering states.

[The Outsider]

I am not saying that traditional Arya samaj culture has no differences with traditional punjabi culture but there are many many similarities which I have posted in my earlier post.Also traditional Punjabi culture which is famous is mostly followed by rural sikhs.As a urban Sikh I can point out many differences of urban sikhs with rural sikhs whether it is language' date='attitude , profession,physique etc.So it is upto you what you take center point of difference.If you take religion and cusine as main points then of course Rural Jat sikh and Haryanavi jaats are different, but if you take [b']physique,profession , temperament , attitude ,caste pride ,choice of work, agrarian problems then rural jat sikh has much more common with rural Haryanavi jaat than with an urban non jat sikh

Yeah, there are similarities and I have not denied them. They are to be expected in bordering states, aren't they? My initial foray into this thread was regarding a comment which claimed that the only thing differentiating Punjab from Haryana was language, which is certainly not true and you do agree to it. Regarding the bold part, I would argue that even certain segments of society in UP, Bihar, Rajasthan have more in common with the traits you described than the average Lucknow, Patna, Jaipur middle class guy. Those are traits of an agrarian and martial tradition rather than of Jatt/Jaat tradition.