How did the greatest ODI player ever get such a low key exit?

[bharat297]

I don't know man, the grass always looks greener on the other side. I personally think Indian cricket is screwed forever. BCCI has killed the golden goose with excessive dose of this IPL poison. IPL has not only killed the technique and temperament of potential test players, but also their hunger. Rohit Sharma of 2008 was the next Tendulkar in the making. After 4 years of million dollar pay cheques and royal life style, the lad hardly looks motivated to play for the country. Murali Vijay looked like a great test prospect few years back. Few years of IPL, he can't buy a run at the international level anymore. Our supposedly promising spinners like Ashwin have no patience or aptitude for the longer version of the sport. Rahane, Pujara, Mukund and the likes belong to the last generation of players with some aptitude for test cricket, as they grew up on proper first class cricket. The next gen players will grow up on a heavy diet of T20 sh*t and their career ambitions will start and end with IPL. To make matters worse, the bufoons manning our cricket board & selection committee do their bit. They dont give a damn about the sport that made them so rich. Its all about milking every last penny the game has to offer and doing enough lip-service to keep the fans and the media interested. We deserve where we are now.

+1 Well said. Completely agree.

[CG]

LOL @ those who think he retired gracefully from ODIs without any external pressure. Dec 21: SachinTendulkar to play ODIs against Pakistan and England: Report http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2012-12-21/top-stories/35952280_1_sachin-tendulkar-selectors-odis On Dec 23 he announces his retirement. Later on the same day, the Indian squad was announced. You guys are defending the indefensible and making Sachin look worse. Just admit that he was selfish and would not go and had to be pushed out. That's the truth.

Somebody Still Believes :hysterical::hysterical: believe TOI.:hysterical::hysterical:.If he wanted he would easily have continued no selector had the guts to do anything.But he choose rightly as he would have struggled against this paki attack and its a great time to retire from test also as it will only get worse.

[bharat297]

Also regarding Sachin ... I don't think anyone can say he chased the records. I mean in 2011 he opted out of a lot of relatively easy ODI series' where he could have got the record (e.g. playing West Indies in ODIs or playing England in ODIs in India) and chose to play the relatively bigger Test series' against England and Australia. However as the innings went on and he missed the 100th hundred a number of times, the media made a bigger and bigger deal about it so after a while it weighed on him too. The argument that he was chasing the money by playing ODIs doesn't make any sense because he gets more money from his endorsements and from playing IPL than he does by playing ODIs. Now he's retired from ODIs he's still getting plenty of endorsements and is still playing IPL, so the money isn't going away now that he's retired. I think Robelinda hit the nail on the head when he said that many sportsmen, and I feel in particular child prodigies like Ponting and Tendulkar, often do not know when to give up cricket because (and this is more of the case with Sachin) cricket is their life. From the time he was a small child he's lived in this cocoon where all he's known is cricket and he's always been able to bounce back from form slumps. To all of a sudden say to yourself, I am not going to play cricket anymore because I can't bounce back from this form slump is something thats incredibly difficult. I think Sachin's case is one of simply not being able to say to himself that he can't do it anymore. It's not in his attitude to be able to say he can't do something. It's ironically the same attitude that made him the great batsman that he is in the first place.

[Magneto]

LOL @ those who think he retired gracefully from ODIs without any external pressure. Dec 21: SachinTendulkar to play ODIs against Pakistan and England: Report http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2012-12-21/top-stories/35952280_1_sachin-tendulkar-selectors-odis On Dec 23 he announces his retirement. Later on the same day, the Indian squad was announced. You guys are defending the indefensible and making Sachin look worse. Just admit that he was selfish and would not go and had to be pushed out. That's the truth.

That TOI report was coke-and-bull anyway.

[Magneto]

I don't know man, the grass always looks greener on the other side. I personally think Indian cricket is screwed forever. BCCI has killed the golden goose with excessive dose of this IPL poison. IPL has not only killed the technique and temperament of potential test players, but also their hunger. Rohit Sharma of 2008 was the next Tendulkar in the making. After 4 years of million dollar pay cheques and royal life style, the lad hardly looks motivated to play for the country. Murali Vijay looked like a great test prospect few years back. Few years of IPL, he can't buy a run at the international level anymore. Our supposedly promising spinners like Ashwin have no patience or aptitude for the longer version of the sport. Rahane, Pujara, Mukund and the likes belong to the last generation of players with some aptitude for test cricket, as they grew up on proper first class cricket. The next gen players will grow up on a heavy diet of T20 sh*t and their career ambitions will start and end with IPL. To make matters worse, the bufoons manning our cricket board & selection committee do their bit. They dont give a damn about the sport that made them so rich. Its all about milking every last penny the game has to offer and doing enough lip-service to keep the fans and the media interested. We deserve where we are now.

Hah! Did IPL kill Virat Kohli too? No, you wouldn't say that because Kohli got some success. It's so silly to say that Rohit got killed by IPL, just because he couldn't make it at the international level in ODIs. On the other hand, Rohit keeps scoring runs in Ranji (which is probably a format he's more suited to). If IPL had made Rohit so lazy, he wouldn't have made all this effort in the Ranjis which no one watches. IPL has its own issues, but blaming every failure on IPL is simply juvenile and shows a clear lack of understanding. The same Ashwin who took the fastest 50 Test wickets for an Indian debutant has become a fall guy due to IPL :hysterical: because of one bad series. How about acknowledging the fact that he ran against a superior opposition and did not know how to counter it, and will probably learn from the experience and emerge better? It has nothing to do with IPL to start with. Pujara's technique looks okay despite playing a few IPL seasons.

[Robelinda]

Ashwin looked mediocre all through the aussie tour, and all through the England test series. Thats 8 straight tests, not just one bad series. So many bowlers from India have been given WAY less tests to show their wares, and dumped after one or two, why is Asswin different? Ojha looks the goods to me.

[Gonzales]

I don't understand this "Player X should retire" now, for the sake of his legacy, team, whatever. Is Sachin responsible for the future betterment of the Indian team? Is he some kind of manager / owner of the team? It is the job of the powers that be. So Sachin is selfish. Most people are. The problem lies in the fact that cricket in general and Indian cricket in particular is quite dysfunctional. So Sachin gets to decide how long Sachin would stay on the job. He is his own boss.

[Gonzales]

He has left such a bad taste in people's mouth that even those who'd have normally sung hosannas at his exit, can't be ar anymore with this man.

On the other hand, you can be sure that Sachin is most definitely not bothered by what people on message boards etc think about him. I mean he seems barely bothered by the team's fortune (let alone to worry about fans) - the way he went about his hundredth hundred, to give just one example.

[CG]

Ashwin looked mediocre all through the aussie tour' date=' and all through the England test series. Thats 8 straight tests, not just one bad series. So many bowlers from India have been given WAY less tests to show their wares, and dumped after one or two, why is Asswin different? Ojha looks the goods to me.[/quote'] Most finger spinners have looked mediocore in australia on first tours.

[Magneto]

Ashwin looked mediocre all through the aussie tour' date=' and all through the England test series. Thats 8 straight tests, not just one bad series. So many bowlers from India have been given WAY less tests to show their wares, and dumped after one or two, why is Asswin different? Ojha looks the goods to me.[/quote'] See, Ashwin has limited ability and may end up being a mediocre Test player. Still, he is the best offie India has at the moment and he has to be given a long rope. He did not fail in 8 Tests back-to-back, he did well in his debut Test against WI, was ordinary against Australia (which he was expected to be, as a rookie), had a great series against NZ, did well in the 1st Test against England, and was again ordinary in the last 3 Tests. Never had prolonged failure to be chucked out.

[bharat297]

Hah! Did IPL kill Virat Kohli too? No, you wouldn't say that because Kohli got some success. It's so silly to say that Rohit got killed by IPL, just because he couldn't make it at the international level in ODIs. On the other hand, Rohit keeps scoring runs in Ranji (which is probably a format he's more suited to). If IPL had made Rohit so lazy, he wouldn't have made all this effort in the Ranjis which no one watches. IPL has its own issues, but blaming every failure on IPL is simply juvenile and shows a clear lack of understanding. The same Ashwin who took the fastest 50 Test wickets for an Indian debutant has become a fall guy due to IPL :hysterical: because of one bad series. How about acknowledging the fact that he ran against a superior opposition and did not know how to counter it, and will probably learn from the experience and emerge better? It has nothing to do with IPL to start with. Pujara's technique looks okay despite playing a few IPL seasons.

Players ultimately need to show responsibility but for a player earning $2m to play a 6-8 week slogfest, what incentive is there to work hard and improve your cricket in the longer form of the game? We can use Kohli as one example. But 2 things about that: 1) For every Virat Kohli, there is a Murali Vijay or R.P.Singh whose careers have gone south ever since the IPL started. Yes you can't directly attribute it to IPL, but it makes it very easy for players to earn an incredible amount of money without playing international cricket. 2) It is still too early to say whether Kohli will succeed in the long-run. Right now he is our best batsman and that can be said with confidence. He is in stellar form. However like most Indian batsman, the real test will be how he responds to that period where he's not getting runs and teams and the media are picking apart his technique. Kohli still has a long way to go, but he's been the best one so far!

[bharat297]

Ashwin looked mediocre all through the aussie tour' date=' and all through the England test series. Thats 8 straight tests, not just one bad series. So many bowlers from India have been given WAY less tests to show their wares, and dumped after one or two, why is Asswin different? Ojha looks the goods to me.[/quote'] Ashwin's main problem is his inability to build pressure. Against relative minnows like West Indies and New Zealand on Indian pitches, he doesn't need to because they don't have great techniques against spinners. But against better sides like Australia and England, Ashwin has all the skills to be a good spinner but doesn't build pressure long enough to set a batsman up. He'll invariably bowl 6 different balls in an over. It's a shame because I don't think many batsman can read him well but he'll bowl too many loose balls so they don't need to worry too much.

[Magneto]

Players ultimately need to show responsibility but for a player earning $2m to play a 6-8 week slogfest, what incentive is there to work hard and improve your cricket in the longer form of the game? We can use Kohli as one example. But 2 things about that: 1) For every Virat Kohli, there is a Murali Vijay or R.P.Singh whose careers have gone south ever since the IPL started. Yes you can't directly attribute it to IPL, but it makes it very easy for players to earn an incredible amount of money without playing international cricket. 2) It is still too early to say whether Kohli will succeed in the long-run. Right now he is our best batsman and that can be said with confidence. He is in stellar form. However like most Indian batsman, the real test will be how he responds to that period where he's not getting runs and teams and the media are picking apart his technique. Kohli still has a long way to go, but he's been the best one so far!

There has been plenty of cricketers like RP Singh before the IPL era whose careers have gone down south after some initial success. What incentive do cricketers have other than money? - Honour. That is the reason Raina hires a personal coach to get his technique right (which he still struggles with), Jadeja fights it out to score triple hundreds in Ranji (at least proves that he is trying to make a mark, shows some intent), Ishant Sharma drops one IPL season to get his surgeries done and people like Kevin Pietersen eats humble pie, apologises, and makes a return to the Test team. Now you may well say that Raina and Jadeja have still continued to be hacks, and that is because they have limited skillsets. But their intent cannot be questioned; it's not that IPL has turned genuises into unskilled labourers. One wrong way to point at the IPL issues is to spot failures and say - see, that guy, he used to be a genius and has become hopeless now after IPL. If the same would have true, top cricketers from all over the world would have failed and had become useless ... we still see guys new guys like Faf Du Plessis doing quite well despite earning the same IPL money.

[bharat297]

There has been plenty of cricketers like RP Singh before the IPL era whose careers have gone down south after some initial success. What incentive do cricketers have other than money? - Honour. That is the reason Raina hires a personal coach to get his technique right (which he still struggles with), Jadeja fights it out to score triple hundreds in Ranji (at least proves that he is trying to make a mark, shows some intent), Ishant Sharma drops one IPL season to get his surgeries done and people like Kevin Pietersen eats humble pie, apologises, and makes a return to the Test team. Now you may well say that Raina and Jadeja have still continued to be hacks, and that is because they have limited skillsets. But their intent cannot be questioned; it's not that IPL has turned genuises into unskilled labourers. One wrong way to point at the IPL issues is to spot failures and say - see, that guy, he used to be a genius and has become hopeless now after IPL. If the same would have true, top cricketers from all over the world would have failed and had become useless ... we still see guys new guys like Faf Du Plessis doing quite well despite earning the same IPL money.

I agree it should be honour but I have my doubts seeing the way this team is playing at the moment. I am not attributing it directly to IPL (because ultimately the players are responsible for their careers) but it's more about the reward for effort. The effort required to cement your place as a Test cricketer and work hard to succeed at international level far exceeds the effort required to succeed at IPL level, yet cricketers are earning 10-20 times more money. Yes our cricketers should be playing for honour. But you have to question whether they are. I've written another thread about this entitled 'We're not mentally tough' in which I speak about how many Indian players e.g. Raina, Yuvraj, Ishant, Irfan, Sreesanth, RP Singh, Rohit, etc. show plenty of promise, have been around in international cricket for 5+ years and still continue to have the same weaknesses that they did 5 years ago.

[Magneto]

I agree it should be honour but I have my doubts seeing the way this team is playing at the moment. I am not attributing it directly to IPL (because ultimately the players are responsible for their careers) but it's more about the reward for effort. The effort required to cement your place as a Test cricketer and work hard to succeed at international level far exceeds the effort required to succeed at IPL level, yet cricketers are earning 10-20 times more money. Yes our cricketers should be playing for honour. But you have to question whether they are. I've written another thread about this entitled 'We're not mentally tough' in which I speak about how many Indian players e.g. Raina, Yuvraj, Ishant, Irfan, Sreesanth, RP Singh, Rohit, etc. show plenty of promise, have been around in international cricket for 5+ years and still continue to have the same weaknesses that they did 5 years ago.

It's going to be a combination of several factors I guess - two among which would be a) lack of real ability b) the politics wherein some cricketers know they are 'untouchables' and will get opportunity after opportunity while others would be shunted out after a failure or two. There are numerous reasons working together which has led to this mess, and just pointing out at IPL leads to overt simplification. I still think that the Indian junior players are okay, it is the spoilt/nonchalant/out-of-form seniors who are responsible behind the whitewashes and humiliating defeats, and all of them are products of the non-IPL era. If the Indian team is cleansed off complacent cricketers, we still have enough firepower to bounce back.

[bharat297]

It's going to be a combination of several factors I guess - two among which would be a) lack of real ability b) the politics wherein some cricketers know they are 'untouchables' and will get opportunity after opportunity while others would be shunted out after a failure or two. There are numerous reasons working together which has led to this mess, and just pointing out at IPL leads to overt simplification. I still think that the Indian junior players are okay, it is the spoilt/nonchalant/out-of-form seniors who are responsible behind the whitewashes and humiliating defeats, and all of them are products of the non-IPL era. If the Indian team is cleansed off complacent cricketers, we still have enough firepower to bounce back.

Ok regarding those factors. All of those cricketers I mentioned had ability. Not many cricketers begin international cricket as a complete product. You have to accept that they have strengths and weaknesses, but you hope that by picking them when they are young, they have the time and hunger to improve. But there isn't any improvement. Take Raina and Yuvraj. These guys both have problems against the short-ball and swinging ball respectively. This has been shown up when they play outside the subcontinent where neither of them are great. This could have been fixed early on by playing a season or so of county cricket and making changes in their technique. But this is on at the same time as the Champions League which has a $2.5 million winning prize, so why would Suresh Raina say 'sorry I'm not going to play IPL this year. I'm going to go to England, play county cricket and work on my technique for Test cricket'? Look at Gambhir, Raina, Yuvraj, Ishant, Irfan, Rohit, Murali Vijay, etc. None of these players have made any real improvements in their technique despite 5+ years of international cricket. Now I'm not saying this is only due to the IPL BUT ... prior to the IPL, none of these guys would have been able to earn any decent amount of money in cricket unless they put the effort in to improving their techniques & skills. They would have gone down the SS Das, Sanjay Bangar, Dinesh Mongia route of just being another tried player that didn't succeed.

[Magneto]

Ok regarding those factors. All of those cricketers I mentioned had ability. Not many cricketers begin international cricket as a complete product. You have to accept that they have strengths and weaknesses, but you hope that by picking them when they are young, they have the time and hunger to improve. But there isn't any improvement. Take Raina and Yuvraj. These guys both have problems against the short-ball and swinging ball respectively. This has been shown up when they play outside the subcontinent where neither of them are great. This could have been fixed early on by playing a season or so of county cricket and making changes in their technique. But this is on at the same time as the Champions League which has a $2.5 million winning prize, so why would Suresh Raina say 'sorry I'm not going to play IPL this year. I'm going to go to England, play county cricket and work on my technique for Test cricket'? Look at Gambhir, Raina, Yuvraj, Ishant, Irfan, Rohit, Murali Vijay, etc. None of these players have made any real improvements in their technique despite 5+ years of international cricket. Now I'm not saying this is only due to the IPL BUT ... prior to the IPL, none of these guys would have been able to earn any decent amount of money in cricket unless they put the effort in to improving their techniques & skills. They would have gone down the SS Das, Sanjay Bangar, Dinesh Mongia route of just being another tried player that didn't succeed.

I buy that point that IPL should not be the primary agenda of all players, and I give credit to Ishant for not playing it last year. I also agree that IPL should have a salary cap and not pay out obscene amounts to cricketers - and these are some of the vices of IPL. But finally, the onus should lie on the cricketers, and if they don't have it in them to give their all for the ultimate honour, it is an unfortunate thing for the country. I'm also sure that there are enough cricketers in the domestics who would love to grab their opportunities with both hands if given the chance.

[bharat297]

I buy that point that IPL should not be the primary agenda of all players, and I give credit to Ishant for not playing it last year. I also agree that IPL should have a salary cap and not pay out obscene amounts to cricketers - and these are some of the vices of IPL. But finally, the onus should lie on the cricketers, and if they don't have it in them to give their all for the ultimate honour, it is an unfortunate thing for the country. I'm also sure that there are enough cricketers in the domestics who would love to grab their opportunities with both hands if given the chance.

Yes completely agree. I have started another thread about this where I think it's an attitude problem and a lack of mental toughness that many of these players don't have the desire to improve their skills. Basically if you look at 2 bit-part players in different eras. Dinesh Mongia and Ravindra Jadeja. Skills wise, there isn't a great deal between them (Jadeja is a better fielder). Mongia was a first-class success but failed at international level due to poor technique which was exposed. Jadeja on the other hand earns $2m with CSK, even if he doesn't play a single international match this year. So yes you're right the money needs to be adjusted for the workload.

[Magneto]

Yes completely agree. I have started another thread about this where I think it's an attitude problem and a lack of mental toughness that many of these players don't have the desire to improve their skills. Basically if you look at 2 bit-part players in different eras. Dinesh Mongia and Ravindra Jadeja. Skills wise, there isn't a great deal between them (Jadeja is a better fielder). Mongia was a first-class success but failed at international level due to poor technique which was exposed. Jadeja on the other hand earns $2m with CSK, even if he doesn't play a single international match this year. So yes you're right the money needs to be adjusted for the workload.

I actually have some good memories of Mongia and felt that he was never given a proper run :--D I have spoken about the laziness of the Indians in another thread - they don't much believe in practice. The only guy who seems to practise whenever I have been to the cricket ground - is Ajinkya Rahane, he is always doing some fielding practice or being given throwdowns etc. I am a little bothered about his tendency to play loose shots when he is well settled, but otherwise, he is another guy who seems to have the hunger and the work ethic despite doing well in IPL. Ishant and Dinda are another two players who seem to practise quite often.

[Bumper]

Hah! Did IPL kill Virat Kohli too? No, you wouldn't say that because Kohli got some success. It's so silly to say that Rohit got killed by IPL, just because he couldn't make it at the international level in ODIs. On the other hand, Rohit keeps scoring runs in Ranji (which is probably a format he's more suited to). If IPL had made Rohit so lazy, he wouldn't have made all this effort in the Ranjis which no one watches. IPL has its own issues, but blaming every failure on IPL is simply juvenile and shows a clear lack of understanding. The same Ashwin who took the fastest 50 Test wickets for an Indian debutant has become a fall guy due to IPL :hysterical: because of one bad series. How about acknowledging the fact that he ran against a superior opposition and did not know how to counter it, and will probably learn from the experience and emerge better? It has nothing to do with IPL to start with. Pujara's technique looks okay despite playing a few IPL seasons.

The way you are quoting examples, you dont even seem to understand a young cricketer's psyche. You are a teenager and you grow up on a heavy diet of T20 and see a genuine opportunity to make a good living playing IPL and you see a dozen teams with more than half a dozen spots per team. What are you going to do ? Fight for years for those 2 or 3 spots in the national team or simply go for the low hanging fruit ? And exactly what kinda technique do you think a T20 aspirant is going to develop ? And worse if you have already made an international appearence and therefore eligible for a big pay packet, are you still gonna be as desperate to break into the national team again ? Among RP Singh, Murali Vijay, Rohit Sharma, Munaf Patel & the likes, i dont see any desperate cricketer trying to get back into "this" side on a permanent basis - esp, when it has never been easier to make it to an Indian team than now. Kohli has succeeded and therefore IPL theory is bullsheet ? LOL! First of all, Kohli is yet to establish himself as a test player. The fact that he is a shoo in just reflects the poverty of our cricket. Second, one exception does not prove or disprove anything. Your Raina Jadeja, RP Singh examples are irrelevant, they dont prove anything, as they are hardly successful test cricketers. In fact, i'd say the way an unfit RP Singh showed up in England hobbling in to deliver the new ball just bolsters my point about cricketers losing their passion to play for the country after their stints at IPL. You think RPS could have afforded to be so out of shape and depth, if his success in 'that' one game was the difference between extending his career as a pro cricketer vs consigned to the bins ? He does not give a rat ar$e about whether he's picked again for the national team, he's made it already! Besides budding cricketers, IPL has taken its toll on established cricketers as well. Never heard of Sehwag delaying his shoulder surgery to play in the IPL or Gambhir playing with his finger injury in the IPL ? And LOL @ Ashwin's failure attributable to a superior team. What do you expect ? All teams will play him like NZ & WI, two teams with the poorest technique against spinners ? Against good teams, he wont get wickets by just bowling an odd carrom ball, he needs to work on the batsmen over a spell. Ever heard of Kumble bowling Gilchrist around the legs after setting him up for several overs at a stretch. I still like Ashwin, its unfair to write him off after one series, but you gotta wonder about his temperament for test cricket. KP ? LOL! I am not sure it strengthens your argument. The fact that at the peak of his international career, he even acted out like that was because of IPL. Besides there are many others like Malinga, Shaun Tait, Shane Bond (and almost Gayle) who gave up test cricket for T20. Overall, the fact that some cricketers have shown the right intent in spite of their T20 riches is hardly a good enough argument to advance your point. IPL has shifted the incentives in a irreversible manner and players no longer look at international cricket the same way they used to. Honor ? My ar$e:hysterical: