surajmal Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 lolwut. India needs all the intel it gets from Pakistan. If we had better Intel' date=' both 26/11 and Kargill could have been averted regardless of how ***ked up Pakistan's military policy is[/quote'] India Pak conflict doesn't start from 26-11... You need intel if you always follow a defensive strategy. Has any PM since 47 had the guts to attack the problem at the source? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganeshran Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 India Pak conflict doesn't start from 26-11... You need intel if you always follow a defensive strategy. Has any PM since 47 had the guts to attack the problem at the source? And what is your solution, which doesnt require intelligence gathering? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seedhi Posted January 8, 2013 Author Share Posted January 8, 2013 True' date=' fair points. No strategy is foolproof or 100% successful. But it does seem to work more than it does not for players such as the US, USSR and China.[/quote']I am not even sure what the end result of such a strategy is going to be vis-a-vis pakistan. No matter how hard we hug them economically, they are not going to give up on kashmir. They wont abandon their nukes which will remain a serious threat to India. On the other hand, a dismemberment of pakistan will render it nuke-nude and kashmir will automatically be resolved in India's favor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
surajmal Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 And what is your solution' date=' which doesnt require intelligence gathering?[/quote'] Pakistan has been challenging India for a open war for 30 years. Kashmir insurgency - Kargil war, Parliament attacks, Countless Terrorists attacks in metros for 30 years. Wake up from your slumber!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jairamesh Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 +1. Whether or not it will work in Pakistan's case is debatable' date=' but ordinary people on the ground makes Intelligence gathering much easier.[/quote'] I highly doubt that India don't have "ordinary" people on the ground in Pakistan doing intel gatherig. Hell, India had intel gathering people working on Pak's nuclear program during the program's early days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 No they haven't. US is at its weakest point since the WW2. All the strong and assertive countries (France, USSR, China. Brazil) don't give a rats ass what US has to say on their actions. And you aren't reading what I'm saying. India doesn't need to "crack" anything. They know who the enemy is. The question for discussion should be how much of India's interests have been sold to the highest bidder by desh drohi inc. 1. You gotto be kidding me if you think Brazil does not have US interferance in their foreign policy. 2. US at its weakest is not just due to US policies(which though highly effective, could've been more effective), there is also the component of other nations catching up technologically, econoimcally and logistically. for eg, by 1980, western Europe was no longer as dependent on US financially as in post WWII days. And while we may know who the enemies are, we sure as hell do not know where they are right now or what they are doing- things that we would have a much greater chances of knowing if we had passive intel resources in the region. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganeshran Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 Pakistan has been challenging India for a open war for 30 years. Kashmir insurgency - Kargil war' date=' Parliament attacks, Countless Terrorists attacks in metros for 30 years. Wake up from your slumber!!![/quote'] So, what is the solution that you propose which doesnt require intelligence gathering? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
surajmal Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 1. You gotto be kidding me if you think Brazil does not have US interferance in their foreign policy. 2. US at its weakest is not just due to US policies(which though highly effective, could've been more effective), there is also the component of other nations catching up technologically, econoimcally and logistically. for eg, by 1980, western Europe was no longer as dependent on US financially as in post WWII days. And while we may know who the enemies are, we sure as hell do not know where they are right now or what they are doing- things that we would have a much greater chances of knowing if we had passive intel resources in the region. ISI is the enemy. Pak Army is the enemy. You and me can find the addressess of their headquarters in 0.004 seconds with a google search. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 I am not even sure what the end result of such a strategy is going to be vis-a-vis pakistan. No matter how hard we hug them economically' date=' they are not going to give up on kashmir. They wont abandon their nukes which will remain a serious threat to India. On the other hand, a dismemberment of pakistan will render it nuke-nude and kashmir will automatically be resolved in India's favor.[/quote'] dismemberment of Pakistan would either lead to a 'punjabi-sindhi nuclear state' or 3 different nuclear states in Pakhtunkhwa,Balochistan and 'rest of Pakistan'. dismembering a nuclear armed nation is a risky proposition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 ISI is the enemy. Pak Army is the enemy. You and me can find the addressess of their headquarters in 0.004 seconds with a google search. indeed. But we sure as hell can't find their operatives or get a pulse on 'what they are up to' without passive intel gathering networks in their nation. US can because its got these passive intel gathering networks setup due to their economic involvement with Pakistan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jairamesh Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 So' date=' what is the solution that you propose which doesnt require intelligence gathering?[/quote'] Engage with Pakistan Army, start dialogue ASAP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
surajmal Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 So' date=' what is the solution that you propose which doesnt require intelligence gathering?[/quote'] "Fight them over there so you don't have to fight them over here". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
surajmal Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 indeed. But we sure as hell can't find their operatives or get a pulse on 'what they are up to' without passive intel gathering networks in their nation. US can because its got these passive intel gathering networks setup due to their economic involvement with Pakistan. After 65 years of bleeding, I think it is time to strike at the head of the snake instead of pussyfooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganeshran Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 Plus dismemberment of a nation is not something that is so easily achieved that the PM can sign the order today and army will get it done tomorrow. The reason it succeeded against Bangladesh was the geographical separation between East and West Pakistan, cultural differences between the two parts and the final nail in the coffin was the army's brutalities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganeshran Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 "Fight them over there so you don't have to fight them over here". Bomb them with nukes? Why mince words when that is what you mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seedhi Posted January 8, 2013 Author Share Posted January 8, 2013 dismemberment of Pakistan would either lead to a 'punjabi-sindhi nuclear state' or 3 different nuclear states in Pakhtunkhwa,Balochistan and 'rest of Pakistan'. dismembering a nuclear armed nation is a risky proposition.In the ensuing bloodbath their economies will be destroyed and they wont even be able to support a fighter squadron let alone nukes and missiles. Even before this, their nukes will be removed by the world powers, including China which will not countenance loose nukes near its border. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 Pakistan has been challenging India for a open war for 30 years. Kashmir insurgency - Kargil war' date=' Parliament attacks, Countless Terrorists attacks in metros for 30 years. Wake up from your slumber!!![/quote'] Again, you gotto be kidding. Pakistan has used proxies in Kashmir precisely BECAUSE it can't match india in conventional military firepower. except for the 1947 war where they had the element of surprise and initiative, they've lost all other engagements because they cannot match our military. And we have to do the same, since conventional war against a nuclear-armed nation is a complete no-go zone. You are doing more damage to India than helping it if you engage in a conventional war with pakistan. Our strength over them is not in conventional war, that window of opportunity passed since their Chagai hills nuclear test. Our strength over them is superior logistics, superior resources and tactical containment by engaging their neighbours (Iran and Afghanistan) and driving a wedge between them and Pakistan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jairamesh Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 People severely underestimate Indian intel, they probably DO prevent plenty of attacks, but can't prevent all. Even if India intel improved 10 fold, Pak Army would still manage to squeze an attack on India via it's proxies. Remember they don't spend millions of dollars on training camps and give up on one thwarted attack, they will keep trying and trying until one sticks i.e. 26/11. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
surajmal Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 Plus dismemberment of a nation is not something that is so easily achieved that the PM can sign the order today and army will get it done tomorrow. The reason it succeeded against Bangladesh was the geographical separation between East and West Pakistan, cultural differences between the two parts and the final nail in the coffin was the army's brutalities. Balochis and Pashtuns want out. They keep kashmiris under their foot 24/7. If there was no Pak Army, Pakistan = West Punjab (Sindh may or may not secede). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 In the ensuing bloodbath their economies will be destroyed and they wont even be able to support a fighter squadron let alone nukes and missiles. Even before this' date=' their nukes will be removed by the world powers, including China which will not countenance loose nukes near its border.[/quote'] there is no way to remove nukes by foreign powers when the nukes are not sitting in silos but are on mobile truck-based launchers and continuosly moving around. Since their precise locations are top secret and not determined by central command, they are inherently untrackable. And while dismemberment of Pakistan might rob them of their ability to make more nukes or support conventional forces, it doesn't make it unfeasable for them to keep 20 nuclear tipped missiles on truck-based launchers on the move, since even sub-saharan African tinpot militias can get enough gasoline to keep 20 trucks on the road forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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